N Hunter Limited - The Secret Credit Reference Agency!

[BSC]

Who says they don't exist? This software has been going on quite a few years, and it's intended as a fraud prevention device, not a credit checking service. There's a fundamental difference.

 

It's been talked about for quite a few years on and off, here's a reference from 2004 for instance:

 

MCL Software Ltd

 

 

 

Scroll up the page, click the link.

 

Unfortunately the poster hasn't indicated their credit history, so it's hard to say.

 

I for instance have 13 accounts on my credit record, a mixture of mobile phones, bank accounts and credit cards. No loans, no mortgage.

 

I'd be surprised if N Hunter had anything on me. But then I'm not sufficiently interested to fork out the £10.

 

If anyone does spend the £10 they should post their results and also say what they have applied for, so it can be established what doesn't as well as what does, get recorded.

 

 

forgive me if I misunderstood, but were you not telling us earlier that you knew what was recorded?

[sumbuddi]

For a start I strongly suggest you check their ICO authorization

 

Indeed:

 

Information Commissioners - Data Protection Register - Entry Details

 

Six listed:

 

Purpose 1 - Staff Administration - boring

Purpose 2 - Advertising, Marketing & Public Relations - boring

Purpose 3 - Accounts & Records - boring

Purpose 4 - Administration of Membership Records - boring

 

Plus

 

Purpose 5

Crime Prevention and Prosecution of Offenders

Purpose Description:

Crime prevention and detection and the apprehension and prosecution of offenders.

Data Controllers further description of Purpose:

INCLUDES THE USE OF CLOSED-CIRCUIT TELEVISION FOR THE MONITORING AND COLLECTION

OF SOUND AND/OR VISUAL IMAGES FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAINTAINING THE SECURITY OF

PREMISES, FOR PREVENTING CRIME AND FOR INVESTIGATING CRIME.

THE DATA CONTROLLERS PRIMARY BUSINESS PURPOSE IS TO PROVIDE TO ITS MEMBERS A

CENTRALISED APPLICATION MATCHING SERVICE TO ASSIST THEM IN THE IDENTIFICATION OF

FRAUDULENT AND FALSE APPLICATIONS FOR CREDIT AND MONEY TRANSMISSION SERVICES.

Data subjects are:

Staff including volunteers, agents, temporary and casual workers

Customers and clients

Suppliers

Relatives, guardians and associates of the data subject

Advisers, consultants and other professional experts

Offenders and suspected offenders

MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC

THOSE INSIDE, ENTERING OR IN THE IMMEDIATE VICINITY OF THE AREA UNDER

SURVEILLANCE

PROPERTY VENDORS INCLUDING KEYHOLDERS

 

Data classes are:

Personal Details

Goods or Services Provided

Offences (Including Alleged Offences)

Criminal Proceedings, Outcomes And Sentences.

SOUND AND/OR VISUAL IMAGES

PERSONAL APPEARANCE AND BEHAVIOUR

SECURITY ORGANISATIONS

D PROPERTY VENDORS INCLUDING KEYHOLDERS

D

D

Data subjects themselves

Relatives, guardians or other persons associated with the data subject

Current, past or prospective employers of the data subject

Business associates and other professional advisers

Employees and agents of the data controller

Suppliers, providers of goods or services

Persons making an enquiry or complaint

Financial organisations and advisers

Police forces

Transfers:

None outside the European Economic Area

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Purpose 6

Information and Databank Administration

Purpose Description:

Maintenance of information or databanks as a reference tool or general resource.This includes catalogues, lists, directories and bibliographic data. bases.

Data subjects are:

Customers and clients

Offenders and suspected offenders

MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC

Data classes are:

Personal Details

Goods or Services Provided

Offences (Including Alleged Offences)

Criminal Proceedings, Outcomes And Sentences.

PERSONAL APPEARANCE AND BEHAVIOUR

Sources (S) and Disclosures (D)(1984 Act). Recipients (1998 Act):

D SECURITY ORGANISATIONS

Data subjects themselves

Business associates and other professional advisers

Employees and agents of the data controller

Suppliers, providers of goods or services

Persons making an enquiry or complaint

Police forces

Transfers:

None outside the European Economic Area

 

 

That doesn't say anything about loyalty cards.

[JonCris]

Perhaps you could explain why you feel the need to defend this data base. You claim it doesn't & we claim it does - why is that a problem for you?

[sumbuddi]

forgive me if I misunderstood, but were you not telling us earlier that you knew what was recorded?

 

I said that banks, building societies and lenders record data. Exactly what data is recorded by whom is less clear. For instance, information on a loan form is likely to be recorded, I guess it's likely for credit cards too. But for bank accounts, etc.? Who knows for sure.

 

But what I am sure is that Tesco are not sending their bloody clubcard database!

[sumbuddi]

Perhaps you could explain why you feel the need to defend this data base. You claim it doesn't & we claim it does - why is that a problem for you?

 

Because I dislike nutty conspiracy theories. Is that a problem for you?

[JonCris]

Indeed:

 

Information Commissioners - Data Protection Register - Entry Details

 

Six listed:

 

Purpose 1 - Staff Administration - boring

Purpose 2 - Advertising, Marketing & Public Relations - boring

Purpose 3 - Accounts & Records - boring

Purpose 4 - Administration of Membership Records - boring

 

Plus

 

Purpose 5

Crime Prevention and Prosecution of Offenders

Purpose Description:

Crime prevention and detection and the apprehension and prosecution of offenders.

Data Controllers further description of Purpose:

INCLUDES THE USE OF CLOSED-CIRCUIT TELEVISION FOR THE MONITORING AND COLLECTION

OF SOUND AND/OR VISUAL IMAGES FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAINTAINING THE SECURITY OF

PREMISES, FOR PREVENTING CRIME AND FOR INVESTIGATING CRIME.

THE DATA CONTROLLERS PRIMARY BUSINESS PURPOSE IS TO PROVIDE TO ITS MEMBERS A

CENTRALISED APPLICATION MATCHING SERVICE TO ASSIST THEM IN THE IDENTIFICATION OF

FRAUDULENT AND FALSE APPLICATIONS FOR CREDIT AND MONEY TRANSMISSION SERVICES.

Data subjects are:

Staff including volunteers, agents, temporary and casual workers

Customers and clients

Suppliers

Relatives, guardians and associates of the data subject

Advisers, consultants and other professional experts

Offenders and suspected offenders

MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC

THOSE INSIDE, ENTERING OR IN THE IMMEDIATE VICINITY OF THE AREA UNDER

SURVEILLANCE

PROPERTY VENDORS INCLUDING KEYHOLDERS

 

Data classes are:

Personal Details

Goods or Services Provided

Offences (Including Alleged Offences)

Criminal Proceedings, Outcomes And Sentences.

SOUND AND/OR VISUAL IMAGES

PERSONAL APPEARANCE AND BEHAVIOUR

SECURITY ORGANISATIONS

D PROPERTY VENDORS INCLUDING KEYHOLDERS

D

D

Data subjects themselves

Relatives, guardians or other persons associated with the data subject

Current, past or prospective employers of the data subject

Business associates and other professional advisers

Employees and agents of the data controller

Suppliers, providers of goods or services

Persons making an enquiry or complaint

Financial organisations and advisers

Police forces

Transfers:

None outside the European Economic Area

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Purpose 6

Information and Databank Administration

Purpose Description:

Maintenance of information or databanks as a reference tool or general resource.This includes catalogues, lists, directories and bibliographic data. bases.

Data subjects are:

Customers and clients

Offenders and suspected offenders

MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC

Data classes are:

Personal Details

Goods or Services Provided

Offences (Including Alleged Offences)

Criminal Proceedings, Outcomes And Sentences.

PERSONAL APPEARANCE AND BEHAVIOUR

Sources (S) and Disclosures (D)(1984 Act). Recipients (1998 Act):

D SECURITY ORGANISATIONS

Data subjects themselves

Business associates and other professional advisers

Employees and agents of the data controller

Suppliers, providers of goods or services

Persons making an enquiry or complaint

Police forces

Transfers:

None outside the European Economic Area

 

 

That doesn't say anything about loyalty cards.

 

I think we can say loyalty cards are well & truly covered as is most everything else

[BSC]

Because I dislike nutty conspiracy theories. Is that a problem for you?

I think your dwelling on a moot point - you have limited evidence as I imagine have most people at this current time.

 

Your suggestion of further SAR's with a view of what people may have expected to see back was constructive and is certainly what I am awaiting myself.

[JonCris]

Because I dislike nutty conspiracy theories. Is that a problem for you?

 

"nutty conspiracy theories" I suppose your the sort who thinks the banks have behaved well & have not 'conspired' to rip us off

 

Your behaving like a troll who's purpose is simply to spread disinformation

 

You claim to know all about Hunter but have you even actually read their licence - nothing is left out - everything is up for grabs - & how do you think they come by that data loan application - does a loan application include questions about who you associate with - of course it doesn't so where does the info come from

[JonCris]

I think your dwelling on a moot point - you have limited evidence as I imagine have most people at this current time.

 

Your suggestion of further SAR's with a view of what people may have expected to see back was constructive and is certainly what I am awaiting myself.

 

BSC correction he/she has NO evidence

[BSC]

BSC correction he/she has NO evidence

I was trying to be diplomatic

[JonCris]

I did know the guy who invented the concept of loyalty cards. They are like 'Air Miles' they are simply a means of farming personal data

[militantconsumer]

Hi Sumbuddi,

 

Sorry to repeat myself, but I notice mine was the only comment you didn't respond to.

 

Are you connected in any way, or have you ever been connected in any way, to the National Hunter database?

 

If not, how come you know so much about it? Especially considering that you say you're not sufficiently interested to fork out £10.

 

Personally, I am sufficiently interested and that's why I sent them a letter and a cheque yesterday. I will certainly post up what I find out for the benefit of others.

 

By the way, I'm not trying to start a fight with you, I am just interested in why a new user would suddenly appear on CAG with an interest in only one subject - N Hunter Limited. And not for the same reasons that most people are interested.

[sumbuddi]

I think we can say loyalty cards are well & truly covered as is most everything else

 

Well yes, but so is my membership of the Meatloaf fanclub. It doesn't mean its on there.

 

I've worked in banking IT (no longer), and I can tell you that data processing is extremely expensive, systems are very hard to interconnect, the Hunter system will be costly to use because it's run externally, and people that imagine that there is some kind of global supercomputer somehow linking up all this heterogenous data for nefarious purposes are living in fantasy land.

 

Large organisations are simply not that efficient. If they were, then perhaps we wouldn't have seen so many immense failures, such as the NHS supercomputer.

 

Tesco Clubcard are in any case not part of Tesco Personal Finance (which IS a BBA member and hence might be an N Hunter member), so they are not going to be passing N Hunter data anyway.

 

By all means request your data from N Hunter, but it's pointless making ludicrous claims that they hold Clubcard data, when that simply doesn't make sense.

 

What little there is on that thread I linked to before:

 

National Hunter - MoneySavingExpert.com Forums

 

shows they have certain fields they use, you can see that these are specified by N Hunter since the same fields are in use by HBOS and Abbey.

 

A few more requests would show what, if any, more fields they use, there's very little there.

 

A few interesting things:

 

Date: this is presumably the date the financial product was applied for

Ent'd Date: this is the date the data was entered - for the HBOS loan it was applied for on Thursday 27th February and entered, presumably as a monthly or weekly batch job, on Sunday 1st March, while Abbey's data in 9th September, entered on 8th October - exactly 1 month later.

 

I went through an HBOS loan application online, they ask for current and previous employer, years spent working for each, income, and monthly expenditure.

 

There doesn't appear to be a previous employer field in the N Hunter database, nor the number of years spent working for them, nor salary, nor years at current address - all standard data that would have been obtained by any financial provider.

 

It doesn't surprise me particularly, these third party systems tend to be ****e anyway.

 

The only thing that's really there is employer's name and address, your date of birth and address, phone number, sex, and that's about it.

[sumbuddi]

Hi Sumbuddi,

 

Sorry to repeat myself, but I notice mine was the only comment you didn't respond to.

 

Are you connected in any way, or have you ever been connected in any way, to the National Hunter database?

 

If not, how come you know so much about it? Especially considering that you say you're not sufficiently interested to fork out £10.

 

Personally, I am sufficiently interested and that's why I sent them a letter and a cheque yesterday. I will certainly post up what I find out for the benefit of others.

 

By the way, I'm not trying to start a fight with you, I am just interested in why a new user would suddenly appear on CAG with an interest in only one subject - N Hunter Limited. And not for the same reasons that most people are interested.

 

Actually my first post was to correct somebody who said that data was not passed to National Hunter when it is. And why? Because I was reading about them and there are only two or three places where they are discussed online.

 

So I'm not really sure what your point is.

 

Of course I'm not bloody well connected to them! I just, as I have said already, don't see the point in suggesting that there's some kind of secret all-encompassing database when that doesn't stand to reason and there's no evidence to support it. Did I say I really hate conspiracy theorists?

 

You can read the wikipedia article I created about them if you like.

[postggj]

has any body done an sar on hunter

 

ime going to do one to check if they have any data on me

 

has hunter refused to release details

 

would be nice to know the pitt falls before i start for which i will publish any results when they occur

[militantconsumer]

Actually my first post was to correct somebody who said that data was not passed to National Hunter when it is. And why? Because I was reading about them and there are only two or three places where they are discussed online.

 

So I'm not really sure what your point is.

 

Of course I'm not bloody well connected to them! I just, as I have said already, don't see the point in suggesting that there's some kind of secret all-encompassing database when that doesn't stand to reason and there's no evidence to support it. Did I say I really hate conspiracy theorists?

 

You can read the wikipedia article I created about them if you like.

 

Thank you for clarifying that, Sumbuddi. I did not intend to cause you any offence.

 

I was only asking because sometimes people come on this forum and others, defending banks, etc. with all sorts of nonsense arguments, and it later emerges that they work for the bank in question!

 

By the way, I have a relative who works for a financial institution, and your comments about automatic versus manual processes are in line with what he/she has told me. It's always less advanced than people assume.

 

I have read the Wikipedia article and thank you for creating it.

 

I am not a conspiracy theorist but I am suspicious by default.

 

The N Hunter report on MoneySavingExpert is only one example, and I would like to see a few more before coming to a view on whether they tned to hold a lot of data or very little. This is one of the reasons that I decided to pay £10 for a copy of my file (which I only sent off yesterday).

 

What also concerns me is how many other "secret" databases there may be out there, which is why I set up a new thread. So far I have contacted just one bank (Alliance & Leicester) and they have given me a list of 6 companies that they may have shared my personal information with:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/credit-reference-agencies/197936-just-how-many-secret.html

[Denzlepob]

I have heard that Tesco loyalty card is operated by Skipton Information Services, is that right?

[the main man]

National Hunter gets a mention on Tonight with Trevor McDonald ITV 8PM

 

Tonight | Episodes | Credit Secrets Revealed - ITV News

[JonCris]

I have heard that Tesco loyalty card is operated by Skipton Information Services, is that right?

 

If true that means they are now known as 'Call Credit' a CRA that is alleged to be primarily responsible for providing misleading data to DCA's resulting in the wrong people being chased for debts they don't owe

[postggj]

has any body done an sar on hunter and got any thing back

 

this bantering is pointless with out any thing in black and white

 

my sar is in the post tomorrow

 

HAS ANYBODY DONE AN SAR ON HUNTER YET

[sumbuddi]

has any body done an sar on hunter and got any thing back

 

this bantering is pointless with out any thing in black and white

 

my sar is in the post tomorrow

 

HAS ANYBODY DONE AN SAR ON HUNTER YET

 

I've linked to one twice in this thread already.

[militantconsumer]

I have just received a letter back from N Hunter.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/credit-reference-agencies/197936-just-how-many-secret.html#post2163576

[militantconsumer]

I have received a second letter back from National Hunter, this time stating that they hold no data on me. I have scanned up a copy here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/credit-reference-agencies/197936-just-how-many-secret-3.html#post2195371

 

I am starting to think that we might be barking up the wrong tree. There are several so-called "fraud prevention" agencies. One is called Synectic Solutions. Another is known as both Experian Decision Analytics and MCL Software Limited - and this one claims to use the National Hunter Database. Plus of course there is CIFAS.

 

Those of you who are concerned about what these organisations may be doing with our data should take a look at my thread on this:-

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/credit-reference-agencies/197936-just-how-many-secret.html

 

N Hunter could be just the start.

[JonCris]

I have received a second letter back from National Hunter, this time stating that they hold no data on me. I have scanned up a copy here:

 

They do now:-D

[fujimar]

Surely a SAR response from the initial credit company should include ALL references taken up or received, e.g. Apply to HSBC, the SAR should show up not only any Experian search but a Hunter search too. This being the case, if the original loan company don't show a Secret CRA reference on an SAR to them aren't they breaking the law..?

 

Maybe the SAR template letter needs to be redrafted to include an explicit requirement to provide data on the Hunters of this world..?