Nationwide **WON POST-OFT v BANKS**

[crazyworld]

The onus is always on the Claimant to prove their own Case.

 

There is NO automatic right of DISCLOSURE in the Small Claims Track.

Therefore Nationwide would be under NO obligation to supply U with a copy of the T & C's from 'n'years ago to enable U to prove your argument against them!

 

Here are a couple of links that may be of interest to U...

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-our-forum/90791-we-need-your-help.html

 

Internet Archive: Wayback Machine

 

Hi MilkTrayMan, thanks for your post, i'm slightly concerned now that in light of the Berwick case part of the reason for the judgement was that no copy of the original terms and conditions were supplied.

 

However, i'm wondering that if in your particulars of claim you could show that a copy of the original terms and conditions had been requested by myself (I will send another letter off today or in the morning if needs be - I only sent the letter before action on Tuesday), and the bank had refused to provide those, wouldn't the judge tend to see that action of refusal to provide the T & C's in a negative way as I had done what I could to reasonably request a copy of those prior to court action (as it is the Nationwide actually stating in their refusal letters that "when you opened your account you agreed to abide by the terms and conditions clearly setting out how accounts should be operated"

 

(and isn't this an admission on their part that these charges are actually penalty charges rather than service charges? ) and i'm not actually disagreeing with the Nationwide that I have breached the terms and conditions so they had to impose their penalty charges am I?

 

I'm only saying that their penalty charges are unlawful and agreeing with them that I have breached their terms and conditions, as there seems to be agreement, why would I even need to be responsible for providing a copy of T & Cs, unless I was disagreeing that I had breached T & C s?

 

Sorry for babbling on there, i'm just thinking out loud really.

[MilkTrayMan]

...Sorry for babbling on there, i'm just thinking out loud really.

Did U say some thing??

Sorry for not listening attentively...BB8 is live on E4...lol...

 

Have a quick gander @ the following 2 Threads + the links that are contained within them...

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/nationwide/94540-nationwide-going-court-ignoring.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/nationwide/89729-sarah-lou-nationwide.html

 

Methinks that U are trying to 'run before U have learnt to walk' + are pre-supposing what a District Judge will require from U, should your Claim reach the AQ stage before Nationwide actually Settle your Claim in full??!

 

Your PoC should only give a brief outline of your argument.

If U think that the DJ will want to see a Copy of your ORIGINAL T & C's, do U really want to prompt him/her into requesting a Copy from U??

Or, as in Kevin Berwick's Case, for the DJ to go looking for + getting hold of a current , more favourable, Copy from off the internet??

[crazyworld]

MilkTrayMan, thanks for the reply, yes, I have a tendency for trying to get ahead of myself sometimes

 

I'll certainly take a look at those threads, in the meantime, I found this from 2000 on the Nationwide site from that Internet Archive site - Very handy link thanks for that by the way:

 

FlexAccount-Questions-current account-online banking with interest on credit balances

 

This bits rather interestingly worded though -

 

"Are there any charges?

 

There are no transaction charges for standard services on your FlexAccount - as long as you remain in credit or within your agreed overdraft limit. We do, however, charge for certain special services:...."

 

Blimey, haven't they increased those charges rather a lot over time?

 

"Special services" - Any opinions on this wording?

 

By 2005, according to their rates and interest page, the wording is:

Nationwide Building Society - FlexAccount rates & charges

 

"account misuse charges.....unauthorised overdraft chargecharge for transaction unpaid - insufficient cleared fundscharge for cheques guaranteed - insufficient cleared funds...."

 

 

Best wishes

[crazyworld]

Following this thread, yesterday I decided to do some digging around for any old terms and conditions I could find in the back of cupboards or in any boxes, I came across 3 old leaflets detailing changes to terms and conditions.

 

Perhaps someone with a legal mind could reply as to whether this is a significant find, in the Nationwide's "Important Information Changes to your FlexAccount" leaflet (the back of the leaflet gives the reference number P7850 dated March 2004) under the heading "Changes to your FlexAccount" is the following:

 

"From 1st June 2004, we are increasing the fees for using FlexAccount outside its terms and conditions"

I thought this was quite an important sentence, as up until now I hadn't come across anything officially from Nationwide itself stating in simple words that their charges are a result of breaching the contract, and therefore penalty charges. (And specifically support our argument)

 

Additionally, the same leaflet then goes on to say "However, to ensure that we are able to continue to offer an excellent range of benefits and competitive interest rates, we must from time to time review the fees that apply to our accounts"

 

An admission that Nationwide are profiteering from the penalty charges arising from breach of contract to supply benefits to other users in black and white?

 

Could someone with a legal mind now clarify what i'm now thinking, that Nationwide have stated in no uncertain terms that these charges are indeed penalty charges, and are profiteering from them, which they seem to have been denying up until now in their defence. And surely, with this information, a judge could not do anything else but strike out any defence using the "these are service charges" argument?

 

That leaflet is numbered P7850, and once again, dated March 2004.

 

We don't even need to prove now that these are penalty charges, and give the alternative sale of goods act reason in the particulars of claim do we when we have this in black and white?

 

For Nationwide claimants only, surely we would only need to quote the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts regulations, give the above quotes, and the reference number for the leaflet, and the Nationwide wouldn't have a leg to stand on with its "service charges" argument any longer?

[daniel12]

Hi the initial spreadsheet for Nationwide was for a period of 6 years from initial request. However, as time as lapsed should the court schedule be 6 years from the date I submit the claim form in court. If so, that means the charges being claimed are less - should I be letting Nationwide the revised amount.

[daniel12]

Hi

 

Getting all my paperwork together to submit my claim in court tom - very very scared. But when I initially submitted my claim I did the last 6 years but as time has now lapsed some of the amounts are over the 6 years. Do i exclude the amounts over the 6 years or can I include them as they were within 6 years when I issued my first letter....think that makes sense

[Mortious]

i believe it is for time stated in your schedule of charges and that amount that you are asking for back....if it is not on the schedule of charges that you sent them i dont think you can claim...but could raise a new one at a later date...

[daniel12]

When I first made my claim I off course claimed for the last 6 years as time as lapsed some of my charges are now over the 6 years - does that mean I have to take them off the schedule or because my initial claim was within the 6 years when I first contacted the bank I can include them!

[Mortious]

Hi,

 

I you can only claim for what you had detailed in the schedule of charges that you sent to the bank for a refund on....i believe this is what the court will look at as this is what you should be claiming. Any new charges since that schedule was sent i dont think can be claimed for.

[daniel12]

Hi I think I could not of been very clear. My bank charges are old charges and only run up to 31 May 2003. Therefore my initial schedule was from 20 April 2001 up to 31 May 2003. So when I first did the claim I was within the 6 years but due to waiting periods etc my six years only goes back to June 2001. So can I use my initial spreadsheet or do I need to take the charges out for April and May 2001.

[Mortious]

Hi That is my point

 

If you are now going to court for the charges to be paid back to you, you can only (i believe) claim for what was on the original schedule as that schedule relates to the claim you are making. It should be irelvant what the date is now, as the claim started when the time period was active.

[daniel12]

Thank you!

[daniel12]

I just cannot decide which option to take - anyone got any input.

 

Also the daily interest is confusing me a bit - am I right in saying that if the charges are say 2000 it will be 2000 x 0.00022 - so daily rate will be £0.44!

[daniel12]

I just cannot decide which option to take - anyone got any input.

 

Also the daily interest is confusing me a bit - am I right in saying that if the charges are say 2000 it will be 2000 x 0.00022 - so daily rate will be £0.44!

[DISCO-DOLLY]

I just cannot decide which option to take - anyone got any input.

 

Also the daily interest is confusing me a bit - am I right in saying that if the charges are say 2000 it will be 2000 x 0.00022 - so daily rate will be £0.44!

I used a county court as dont have plastic to use moneyclaim online. but i dont think it really matters, as if it goes to court moneyclaim online put u in touch with ur nearest county court anyway. Plus as im on benefits i didnt have to pay costs etc. Regarding daily interest theres info on here somewhere that explains all that. hope this helps:)

[Parkvale]

County Court ( N1) is your best option. You can submit your charge spreadsheet with your application. Also as soon as the bank submit a defence you will be transfered to your local court anyway. Daily interest rate as per your calculations. Good luck

[haybaby]

It depends on the date you sent the first letter with your charge to Nationwide.

In my spreadsheet i sent i did form august 2001 to May 2007 and by the time i go to court it will be over the 6 years.

 

People are claiming for account charges further back then 6 years theres one on another forum going back too 1991.

 

I wouldnt worry as im not and you will still get your money.

 

Just follow the steps and read as much as you can on here and the other forums and you will be fine.

[haybaby]

i think it works out at 22p a day

[daniel12]

Thank you for your comments - I will stick to the amounts that were on the initial spreadsheet and fingers crossed - doing the claim form at lunch and going to take it to court tomorrow!!!!

[daniel12]

Thank you for your comments - going to submit into court tomorrow - very very scary just hopes it is successful!

[Parkvale]

Don't be scared. Thousands of people have gone down the same route as you andwon. So do not be worried to ask any questions however silly they seem. The Consumer Action Group has over 150,000 people as registered users and has helped over 8,000 people to reclaim over £13,000,000. So we can help you. Good luck.

[daniel12]

Thank you - I will try not to be lol!

[daniel12]

I have just completed my form for the court and submitting it tomorrow. Am I right in that when the Bank defend their claim I will then receive the allocation questionnaire and will need to provide all the documentation. If so, my concern my charges relate to 2001 - 2003 and have not got the terms and conditions, even though they have been requested from the bank in line with the templates.

 

Can anyone provide any input?

 

Thanks

[daniel12]

I have just completed my form for the court and submitting it tomorrow. Am I right in that when the Bank defend their claim I will then receive the allocation questionnaire and will need to provide all the documentation. If so, my concern my charges relate to 2001 - 2003 and have not got the terms and conditions, even though they have been requested from the bank in line with the templates.

 

Can anyone provide any input?

 

Thanks

[pinkduchess]

an AQ may or not be required depending on the court.

 

T&Cs are being collated for different years / banks by this site so hopefully there will be something for you should you need it.

 

You seem to be starting a new thread for every question. Try to stick to one thread in the forum for the bank you are claiming from. that way your claim is easier to follow & youre not all over the place.

 

good luck