MJ versus A&L ***WON***

[MimiJane]

hi there wondered if i can ask when doing a mcol how do i send a list of charges with it

 

Have you produced a spreadsheet from your statements showing the date of charge, reason, total and 8% interest in the last column? If not, you need to do one now, using a calculator on this site to work out the 8% interest (think there's one somewhere).

 

I rang the court about sending the schedule to them and emailed it.

 

Hope this helps.

[MimiJane]

hi mimijane just wondered if it made a difference if the bank is in joint names but the mcol is just in mine, my partner knows im doing this but there only seems space for one name on the mcol is this ok??

 

I believe some people have done this in joint names but, I'd ring the court just to make sure it's OK in your name.

[caro]

Hi Mimi

 

I've just had a look at the defence you sent me, some of which I found a little odd as they seem to be defending themselves against allegations that you have not made. My understanding is that it is up to the defendant, ie A&L, to prove that the items they list as charges are not penalties, not you, and they appear to be doing this in an attempt to mitigate their losses. They are also coming up with all of the banks favourite, the service charge and not the penalty.

 

If they are penalties, they should be repaid, and they cannot suggest that they keep 12.00 of it.

 

I hope you don't mind me posting this here, but I can't imagine that I am telling A&L or their solicitors anything that they are not fully aware of.

 

I doubt somehow that they will really want to test it in court, so please don't worry too much about this. As far as I can tell you have done everything correctly, but unfortunately payment won't be as quick as A&L claimants have enjoyed up to now. The good part about that is that you will get more interest, and at 8% it's a better rate than most investments.

[MimiJane]

Thanks so much for that

 

When you have a minute, could you let me know about the "nudge" letter I intend sending when I hear if an AQ is needed or not.

 

A couple of other things I've thought of :-

 

1. Do you think it appropriate to send a Draft Order of Directions, if there's no AQ, in my case?

2. In the future I know, but trying to get prepared ... I can't see a Statement of Evidence listed in the index for the Court Bundle. Would have thought it was an important document and should be there?

3. Again re. court bundle, keep seeing 3 copies required but, if originals are needed at court (as I've read), shouldn't it be 1 copy for court, 1 for solicitor and originals for me, i.e. 2?

 

No doubt I'll keep thinking of other things before the court bundle has to be prepared, so do hope you don't mind all the questions:rolleyes:. I really appreciate all your help.

 

Mimi x

[caro]

I really wouldn't bother with the nudge letter as I don't think it will make one jot of difference to them, although it can do no harm. It's in the hands of the courts now so I'd be inclined to let the process take its course.

 

I think the draft directions are an excellent idea. A&L have insisted on not settling until a court claim was started, and then settled. If you can find it, there was a Moneybox programme on radio 4 where an A&L spokesperson said as much. It might be worth sending a copy of that with your draft directions.

 

You will need 3 copies, because if you are asked to produce an original in court, you then won't have a copy. The court will let you know when you have a court date what you will need to provide.

[MimiJane]

Many thanks for that

[MimiJane]

A&L have insisted on not settling until a court claim was started, and then settled. If you can find it, there was a Moneybox programme on radio 4 where an A&L spokesperson said as much. It might be worth sending a copy of that with your draft directions.

 

Hi,

 

The only article I can find is the one where A&L "retreat" on charges and appear to acknowledge that a fee of £4.50 might be more appropriate for bounced cheques. Is this the one?

[caro]

It was a radio 4 programme last year. I'll try and find it.

 

EDIT

 

Got it, but not sure if still available. I can't check it at the moment.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/10795-moneybox-radio-4-a.html?highlight=moneybox

[Kandinsky873]

Mimijane

This may be the article that you are refering to.....

 

The Alliance & Leicester appears to have acknowledged that a fee of only £4.50 might be a fair charge for bouncing cheques.

 

The bank has put this charge forward to settle a customer's claim for the refund of £2,035 in overdraft fees.

The letter to the customer, who wishes to remain anonymous, quotes research for a recent BBC Money Programme as the basis of its offer.

The bank's standard charge for bouncing a cheque is currently £25.

The Alliance & Leicester's letter was sent from its customer service centre in Bootle in January.

It argues that the charges levied on the customer's account for going overdrawn without permission were "raised correctly in accordance with the terms and conditions of the account."

But it then goes on to say: "A recent report commissioned by the BBC claimed the cost would be no more than £4.50.

"Therefore, I propose to offer you the difference from £4.50 up to the amount of charges that were raised, which totals £1,558."

One-off offer?

The offer to calculate the charges at just £4.50 each appears to be a one-off offer, as the letter goes on to stress that any future charges for bouncing cheques would be charged at the published, higher, rate.

A spokesman for the bank said: "Each case is considered on its own merits. There is no blanket policy to offer to cut charges to just £4.50."

Even so, the proposal seems to be a break with the current practice of all the high street banks who argue vigorously in defence of their overdraft fees, claiming that they are fair and not unlawful.

However, Marc Gander of the Consumer Action Group, which has been leading the campaign against bank overdraft charges, said: "This is a wholly unusual letter. They always say their charges are transparent and reasonable."

Money Programme

The idea that it actually costs banks far less than they charge to bounce customers' cheques was highlighted by the BBC's Money Programme in December 2006.

Two business academics and a former senior executive of NatWest Bank were asked to calculate just how much they thought it actually cost a bank to deal with customers who went overdrawn without permission.

They estimated that it would be £4.50 to bounce a cheque and just £2.50 to stop a direct debit.

More recently, the BBC News website revealed evidence from a time and motion study at the Yorkshire bank, which showed that the labour costs of bouncing a cheque were probably no more than £2.00.

In the past year hundreds of thousands of people have written to their banks, claiming that their overdraft charges have been unlawfully high, and demanding refunds on charges going back up to six years.

Many have been successful, with the banks consistently refusing to admit any fault, but equally refusing to let the arguments be heard in court - and often settling our of court at the last moment when threatened with legal action. Earlier this month a businessman from Norfolk won a record refund, so far, of almost £36,000 for overdraft charges levied on his business account by NatWest.

(BBC NEWS | Business | Bank retreats on overdraft fees)

[caro]

All useful for when you need a bundle, especially given the part of the defence referring to £12.00.

[MimiJane]

Thanks Kandinsky ... this is actually the article I've already found and mentioned above, not the one I think Caro is referring to.

[caro]

MJ, regarding the statement of evidence, that is not normally included in the court bundle unless specifically requested by the judge. It is for use in court on the day.

 

I've also had confirmation that the defence you have is quite standard, in fact similar to Lloyds, so asI suspected, nothing new or to particularly worry about.

[MimiJane]

Many thanks for that

[MimiJane]

I'm awaiting a court date and fully expect to be asked to prepare a court bundle in the near future, so am trying to get my head around it all.

 

I have a few questions re. the legal papers we have to attach :-

 

1. Is it best to prepare the full Disclosure List as the index, or use the list at the front of the court bundle?

 

2. I cannot find the Competition Commission Report ... following the link just brings me to the forum page.

 

3. I can find no reference to Lordsvale v. Bank of Zambia in the Relevant Case Law Summary (though it's listed as one of the case laws that the claimant will make reference to?).

 

4. Would it be appropriate to include papers on the Data Protection Act?

 

5. Would it be a good idea to enclose the BBC article "Alliance & Leicester appear to retreat on overdraft charges" to make reference to, or would it put me in danger of a judge ruling that £4.50 might be a fair charge?

 

6. Any other news articles that anyone knows of that it might be prudent to enclose?

 

7. Is it a good idea to enclose any A&L Terms and Conditions posted on here to date? Claiming for the last 6 years and so don't expect to be able to find all that apply.

 

I appreciate this is unlikely to reach court, but want to be well prepared, just in case.

 

Any help greatly appreciated.

[Jess68]

eeeek i feel really unprepared now, i thought it was just a case of if it went to court taking all my statements and stuff with me... *goes off and starts collecting info

[MimiJane]

eeeek i feel really unprepared now, i thought it was just a case of if it went to court taking all my statements and stuff with me... *goes off and starts collecting info

 

I'm probably reading far more into it than I need to, but trying my best to be prepared:rolleyes:

[Jess68]

lol you are probably right tho... its best to be prepared, i have had that much on my mind and going wrong tho i haven't thought about the actual court bit since i started back in feb... i guess i really need to start and get some preparation done.

[MimiJane]

Know what you mean ... part of you just doesn't want to start thinking about it and hope it doesn't happen!

[Jess68]

lol yeh definately, i am prepared to go to court in theory, but i just dont want to haha... the funny thing is i put on my AQ that i dont need any witness' or legal representation etc... but never thought for a minute i might need a carer with me, and my litewriter is broken so if i am on a bad day, which given the stress of the situation i will be, i will have to write down my replies to the court cos my speech will be so bad they wont understand me....

[MimiJane]

*Bump*

 

Can anyone help with my court bundle questions above please? Really want to get moving on this and answers will probably help others also.

[caro]

Most of the information that you need will be in the CAG libraries, located just below the FAQ's, and the rest can probably be found using google, although I think you will find everything in the libraries. A bundle is not usually required until 14 days before the court date. If you use the draft directions and the judge decides to use them you may never need one.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/

[cazawilson]

Hi everyone I find your thread very helpful Mimijane.

 

I would like to know when to send the draft directions, I have been notified that my case has been sent to my local court and that no AQ will be sent. Although I have no date, should I send my draft now or wait for a date????

[MimiJane]

Hi everyone I find your thread very helpful Mimijane.

 

I would like to know when to send the draft directions, I have been notified that my case has been sent to my local court and that no AQ will be sent. Although I have no date, should I send my draft now or wait for a date????

 

Exactly what I was wondering:confused: Have a read of the following and let me know what you think. Not sure if we're better waiting for a date and instructions from the court as to what the next step is, or pre empt this and send now :

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/78873-new-after-28-days.html?highlight=allocation#post695176

 

Should we wait to hear if the local judge is going to ask for an AQ, or take it he isn't? On reading the draft directions, it still looks as if we may need to send out a court bundle though.

[MimiJane]

Most of the information that you need will be in the CAG libraries, located just below the FAQ's, and the rest can probably be found using google, although I think you will find everything in the libraries. A bundle is not usually required until 14 days before the court date. If you use the draft directions and the judge decides to use them you may never need one.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/

 

Thanks Caro. I've found the Lordsvale case, but am still stuck on my other questions. Perhaps I'm better to wait from the court to see what the instructions are before I go into panic mode ...

[MimiJane]

The Judges directions have now arrived and read as follows :-

 

 

The papers in this claim were considered by Judge .....who allocated the claim to small claims track to be heard at ...... on Wednesday the 1st of August 2007 at 2pm

 

1) The following directions apply to this claim:

 

2) The claimant shall within 21 days of service of this order send to the defendant and to the court:-

 

a) a schedule (unless already filed and served) setting out each charge repayment of which is sought, showing the account number, date, amount and reason (if any) for that charge being made;

 

b) A statement of evidence, if such is to be relied upon, in support of

the claim and copies of any relevant documents together with copies of any decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon.

 

If the claimant fails to comply with this order the claim will be struck out without further order.

 

3) The defendant shall within 21 days thereafter file and serve a

response to the claimants schedule stating in respect of each item

claimed:

 

a) Pursuant to what contractual provision such charge was made, producing a a copy of the contractual document relied upon

 

b) whether such charge is accepted to be a penalty and if not, why not;

 

c) If such charge is alleged to be a pre-estimate of the defendants

loss incurred by the claimants actions (whether or not such action is

to be treated as a breach of the contract between the parties) all

facts and matters to be relied upon as showing that such is a proper

estimate of such loss and all evidence was to be adduced at trial as to what the true cost of dealing with the matter was.

 

d) Any witness statements

 

e) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon.

 

If the defendant fails to comply with this order, the defence will be struck out without further order

 

4) The original documents shall be bought to the hearing.

 

5) The must be informed immediately if the case is settled by agreement before the hearing date.

 

 

It looks to be pretty good news as the bank is being asked to produce how they arrive at their costs.

 

I've started to get the court bundle ready, but have a few questions for anyone who can help me :-

 

1. I presume I am to use the Statement of Evidence which refers to the defendant making constant reference to their T&C's?

 

2. The bank statements are not specifically asked for, I presume I include them anyway?

 

3. I only have the latest T&C's and not the ones for 6 years ago; should I include these latest ones?

 

4. A "Disclosure List" has not been requested, but I've used this format for my Index. Should I omit the Statement of Truth at the end, or leave it in?

 

5. Is it necessary/vital to include the Australian Penalty Report to back up SofE ... this runs to 90 pages and my bundle is huge anyway!

 

No doubt there'll be other questions over the next couple of days, but

I'd be really grateful for any help with the above as I want to prepare it in the next week before copying it all.

 

Thanks,

Mimi