Cautioned for not having Train ticket

[reduk054]

Hello, just wondered if anyone has any help regarding my latest predicament

My local train station does have a manned ticket office which at the time of my offense was open (as usual with a queue out the door, and people buying season tickets, enquiring about summer timetables blah blah), with one member of staff working. I joined the queue, but decided that if I didint get a move on then I would be late to meet a friend who was already on the train from London.

I tried to use the ticket machine, one was out of order (again!) and the other asked for correct money only, and did not accept electron which is the only card which I own.

Previously if this has been the case, i have got on the train, and paid the excess fair at the other end (i.e. the cost of the ticket)

Well, I got on the train, and there were ticket inspectors, not the guards. I had seen them before i got onto the train and knew that I would be able to explain to them. Um, no! I was told that I had got onto the train without a valid ticket therefore was going to be charged a £20 penalty fare on top of the ticket price, but the inspector did not have the means of giving me a ticket or taking my card?! So I refused to pay the penalty notice as I had made an effort to get a ticket and thought that he was being unreasonable. Any way I did purchase the return ticket at my destination.

So I said that the ticket office was inundated and that the machines were not working properly and at my destination I would purchase the tickets required as I have done before. He accused me of being a fare dodger (in polite terms) cautioned me (just like a police man) and I am now waiting to hear regarding the prosecution.

So I know that I am in the wrong for not purchasing a ticket, however i did try to buy a ticket which CCTV will show, but do i have an argument or not?

[mazza1970]

Hello, just wondered if anyone has any help regarding my latest predicament

 

My local train station does have a manned ticket office which at the time of my offense was open (as usual with a queue out the door, and people buying season tickets, enquiring about summer timetables blah blah), with one member of staff working. I joined the queue, but decided that if I didint get a move on then I would be late to meet a friend who was already on the train from London.

 

I tried to use the ticket machine, one was out of order (again!) and the other asked for correct money only, and did not accept electron which is the only card which I own.

 

Previously if this has been the case, i have got on the train, and paid the excess fair at the other end (i.e. the cost of the ticket)

 

Well, I got on the train, and there were ticket inspectors, not the guards. I had seen them before i got onto the train and knew that I would be able to explain to them. Um, no! I was told that I had got onto the train without a valid ticket therefore was going to be charged a £20 penalty fare on top of the ticket price, but the inspector did not have the means of giving me a ticket or taking my card?! So I refused to pay the penalty notice as I had made an effort to get a ticket and thought that he was being unreasonable. Any way I did purchase the return ticket at my destination.

 

So I said that the ticket office was inundated and that the machines were not working properly and at my destination I would purchase the tickets required as I have done before. He accused me of being a fare dodger (in polite terms) cautioned me (just like a police man) and I am now waiting to hear regarding the prosecution.

 

So I know that I am in the wrong for not purchasing a ticket, however i did try to buy a ticket which CCTV will show, but do i have an argument or not?

 

Hi I work for the railway. The way my company deals with penalty fares is if the ticket office is manned then you should have queued to get a ticket, getting there in plenty of time incase there is a queue. I will try and find out what the situation would be if the ticket machine was broke for you, but that is the way my company sees it. Unfortunately you were unlucky to encounter ticket inspectors at your destination.

[reduk054]

Hi Mazza, thank you for your reply, good to hear things from the other side of the fence, and what you have said was pretty much what the inspector said (it wasn't you was it )! Totally understand what you have said about the ticket office, and yes I should have got there earlier, but from experience i have stood in that queue for over 20 minutes just to buy a ticket. Inspector said that I should complain to the station, but not that that will have a bearing!

I did try and pay him as if he was a guard but he couldn't accept any money!

Its a shame, I wasnt even trying to be dishonest or I would not have got onto the train if i knew that inspectors could not take money for a ticket, escpecially as I saw them before they boarded!

[mazza1970]

Hi Mazza, thank you for your reply, good to hear things from the other side of the fence, and what you have said was pretty much what the inspector said (it wasn't you was it )! Totally understand what you have said about the ticket office, and yes I should have got there earlier, but from experience i have stood in that queue for over 20 minutes just to buy a ticket. Inspector said that I should complain to the station, but not that that will have a bearing!

 

I did try and pay him as if he was a guard but he couldn't accept any money!

 

Its a shame, I wasnt even trying to be dishonest or I would not have got onto the train if i knew that inspectors could not take money for a ticket, escpecially as I saw them before they boarded!

 

 

Ha Ha! No it wasn't me, I am what our station staff call a pen pusher, I work in the head office of our company. Put a complaint into the customer relations department of the train company, what company was it by the way, and explain what happened. Our customer relations deal with the penalty fares as well so you might get an answer. Give them 7 days to repond to you letter, and don't forget, keep a copy:)

[buzby]

I gather British Rail has many successful prosecutions - the issue is was the ticket office open and manned? If so, then a ticket is mandatorey and a slam dunk if the train does not have a conductor. It would be very difficult to challenge this.

[mazza1970]

When ticket inspectors are at a station, I am going by the way ours work, they only issue tickets if there is a valid reason the station wasn't manned, i.e, unstaffed, station staff helping a disabled passenger on the station. If a passenger tells them that the station was unstaffed, the ticket inspector will know which stations are unstaffed that day, if a passenger says station staff were helping a disabled passenger, the inspector will ring that station to clarfy it.

Normally they will just use their discretion in giving a penalty fare, but you do get some who go by the book and are jobsworths. I get a free pass to travel to work, if I was to forget it and not have a ticket, not only would I get a penalty fare, but I could also lose my job as well, so the rules apply to us as well.

[reduk054]

Thank you Mazza again for the insight! And Buzby, you really have clarfied what I thought was the case!

Mazza the train company is Southern (don't think they have a suffix! yellow and green trains).

Oh and incidentatly the inspector showed me no identification - or told me his name. But he was wearing a badge with southern on it.

I guess I must have been quite naive really as I gave him my driving licence as proof of address, presumably if I did want to ticket / fare dodge i could have given a false name and addy?!!

Who says that honesty pays?!

[mazza1970]

Thank you Mazza again for the insight! And Buzby, you really have clarfied what I thought was the case!

Mazza the train company is Southern (don't think they have a suffix! yellow and green trains).

Oh and incidentatly the inspector showed me no identification - or told me his name. But he was wearing a badge with southern on it.

I guess I must have been quite naive really as I gave him my driving licence as proof of address, presumably if I did want to ticket / fare dodge i could have given a false name and addy?!!

Who says that honesty pays?!

 

That will be Southern Trains. Our staff wear badges but they don't have their names on, only their pay numbers, this is because if they have any trouble and get assaulted and it gets taken to court, then the offender can't look up their name and where they live.

 

You weren't being naive, you were being one of the honest people, and believe me, by the number of assaults our inspectors have, there are quite a lot of dishonest people out there. And I shouldn't really be saying this, but if you were to give a false name and address, they have a way of finding out there and then if you are telling the truth, and if the BTP (British Tranport Police) are there, they can get you arrested for false info, there is a telephone number they ring to a firm who can confirm this, don't ask me how it's done, I am not privy to that info, but I know there is a way they can find out.

[buzby]

No need to apologise for being honest. Yes, you could have given a false name and address, however the Inspector would carry a phone and call his chums in Revenue Evasion. They can verify whether the nae and address match (unsure whether this is by Voters Roll or CRA) but if the information was false, BTP would become involved and it would spiral out of control.....

[Guest Gertie100]

Do Train inspectors have the right to caution you like a policeman?

[mailmannz]

What does "cautin you like a policeman" mean?

 

Does it mean, talk to you in the same fashion a police officer would or was the inference merely to the fact the geezer spoke to him advising him of his rights and what would happen as he is considered a fare dodger?

 

Reduk, to be fair to the guy on the train how does he know you wont do a runner? You know you are honest but he doesnt?

 

Its a tough situation but I dont think there is much here for you by the sounds of things...especially since the ticket office was open at the time (even if it had a himalaya-esk type queue).

 

Regards

 

Mailman

[blacksheep1979]

But the question has to be - where do they draw the line (no pun intended) with queues?

 

15 min wait is ok but 35 isn't? - What classes as too long a wait before you are allowed to board a train with no ticket?

[Movingon]

But the question has to be - where do they draw the line (no pun intended) with queues?

 

15 min wait is ok but 35 isn't? - What classes as too long a wait before you are allowed to board a train with no ticket?

 

There is no such allowance. You are expected to arrive in plenty of time to purchase your ticket and board the train. If you allow 15 minutes for the queue and it lasts 35 minutes then you are doomed to board the next available train.

[reduk054]

Mazza - I will follow up the complaint to the customer relations but I know, now, that I was, for all intents and purposes, wrong! Even though I did attempt to purchase a ticket by a) waiting in a large queue, then trying another method by... b) going to the ticket machine but i) not having the correct change therefore machine would not dispense ticket and ii) only having an electron card which the machine does not accept

Does any one know what happens next? Is it a fine? Or a court hearing?

Mailmanz cautioned (may I add for the first ever time in my life!) "you do not have to say anything.........etc "

[reduk054]

Sorry people, this is for my info (and any one else who has been caught by Southern on a train with out a ticket!)

 

From Southern Website

I'VE BEEN ISSUED A PENALTY FARE. WHAT SHOULD I DO?

 

You should send any outstanding money to the address on the Penalty Fare notice; the cheque or Postal Order should be made payable to 'Revenue Protection Support Services'. Although we cannot intervene directly once a Penalty Fare Notice has been issued, anyone who feels that they have been dealt with unfairly does have a right of appeal. If you don't feel that you should have been given a Penalty Fare, you should appeal to the Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service (IPFAS) within 21 days of the notice being issued. Their address is:

 

IPFAS

P.O. Box 89

Portsmouth

PO1 1EG

 

If your appeal relates to the conduct of our staff, please also send us a copy so that we can deal with this part of your complaint.

[borisbeaver]

In answer to the question, "Can they caution you?". the answer is Yes. Railway ticket inspectors have statutary powers under the Railways Act.

 

The caution is similar to the police caution. It basically ensures that if you are taken to court, you cannot say that you were not cautioned.

 

They can also detain you for short periods of time, usually until the police arrive.

[tim2718281]

Not much help but: in a similar situation, I asked the member of the station staff if I could board the train without a ticket.

 

He said when the train arrived to go to the carriage where the guard was - he told me how to spot it, something to do with lights on the carriages - tell him I did not have a ticket, and ask if I could board the train and buy one.

 

So I did that, and after the train got under way, the guard sold me a ticket.

 

Tim

[reduk054]

Boris Beaver - thanks for the clarification! Presumably I did not need to see the inspectors ID though at the time of cautioning?, I am not doubting that he was official and carrying out his job though! Just curious

Tim thank you for your info and experience, cant say, however late, desperate for time or fed up of broken ticket machines or machines that only accept the correct change or certain debit cards will I EVER get on a train without a ticket again!

[blacksheep1979]

There is no such allowance. You are expected to arrive in plenty of time to purchase your ticket and board the train. If you allow 15 minutes for the queue and it lasts 35 minutes then you are doomed to board the next available train.

 

Ok that was more of a flippant comment as obviously 15 mins is ok and 35 is kind of acceptable. But say in the extreme circumstance of something like an hour wait?

[Movingon]

Ok that was more of a flippant comment as obviously 15 mins is ok and 35 is kind of acceptable. But say in the extreme circumstance of something like an hour wait?

 

LOL!! I would be getting me a taxi or a bus... but seriously I don't think they even allow for this situation in any way. To them it's black and white; if you get on the train without a ticket, and the station was open, you have earned a Caution and possibly ejection from the train - depending upon your attitude.

[reduk054]

At least I didn't get ejected from the train Stone Laughter LOL

[Guest Gertie100]

Thank you borisbeaver:D

[reduk054]

I sent my letter explaining how I was trying to buy a ticket, but still have not had anything regarding the penalty notice / caution?!

[reduk054]

HI little update on this one.

Letter received yesterday (26th April) from FIRST CAPITAL CONNECT with the following

Dear Red

I have been informed that on 9th March 2007 you travelled from Three Bridges to Brighton without a valid ticket for your journey.

Normally this would be dealt with by our Prosecutions Unit, but in this instance I am prepared to finalise this matter on payment of the sum of £27.90, being the outstanding fare, plus an administrative fee. Please foward payment to this office within 14 days of the date of this letter.

Failure to pay this sum will result in legal action being reconsidered. If we take out a a private prosecution against you then you could receive a criminal record and have to pay sustantial fines and costs.

Firstly I was on a Southern Train , and i was travelling between Three Bridges and Hove (actually). The ticket inspector had a southern badge.

I sent a letter on the 22 March to the Independant Penalty Fares Appeal Service, who requested the original penalty fare notice. I was only ever given a slip of paper, and not sure if this is the penalty notice or not?

I know that we are talking about a small amount, but I am uncertain about why I have been contacted by a different train company?

Any ideas?

Thank you

[calvi36]

Hi Red,

 

I read this whole post with interest as I drove trains for a long number of years, British rail and then the privatised railway system. I have to say, for what it is worth, that RPI's (Revenue Protection Inspectors) were hated just as much by staff as they were by the public and most only get into this type of job by being jobworths. I could tell you tale upon tale of how they did staff members travelling without tickets and it was so so bad during privatisation that company's had to issue their own staff with normal passenger tickets so that their staff could travel to certain stations and depots to pick up their next train to work it forward. I am afraid that a lot of the conditions of carriage rules from British Rail days do still apply. It is quite simple, you need a valid ticket to travel, if you can purchase a ticket at your starting station either by machine or from staff then you should do this. The only acceptable reason for boarding a train without a valid ticket is that the station is unmanned, ticket staff not available due to performing other duties or at an unmanned station ticket issuing machines are out of service. I do understand that you are an honest one but on more than one occasion I had to intervene (as a driver) to help a guard who was getting ripped into by fair dodgers. The RPI's are the **** of the railway companies yet the companies do have the right to protect their income for the service that they provide.

HI little update on this one.

Letter received yesterday (26th April) from FIRST CAPITAL CONNECT with the following

 

Dear Red

I have been informed that on 9th March 2007 you travelled from Three Bridges to Brighton without a valid ticket for your journey.

Normally this would be dealt with by our Prosecutions Unit, but in this instance I am prepared to finalise this matter on payment of the sum of £27.90, being the outstanding fare, plus an administrative fee. Please foward payment to this office within 14 days of the date of this letter.

Failure to pay this sum will result in legal action being reconsidered. If we take out a a private prosecution against you then you could receive a criminal record and have to pay sustantial fines and costs.

 

Firstly I was on a Southern Train , and i was travelling between Three Bridges and Hove (actually). The ticket inspector had a southern badge.

 

I sent a letter on the 22 March to the Independant Penalty Fares Appeal Service, who requested the original penalty fare notice. I was only ever given a slip of paper, and not sure if this is the penalty notice or not?

 

I know that we are talking about a small amount, but I am uncertain about why I have been contacted by a different train company?

Any ideas?

Thank you