Hankins Car Sales/lawgistics - 2010 Vauxhall Zafira 7 seater - court claim issued - not fit for purpose.

[DiscoCow]

Just looking for a bit of advice on my situation

 

I am currently a few months into a process with the car dealer on a faulty car.

They have a solicitor on their side and I don't at this point. 

When i say 'dealer' below all comms have been with their legal rep

 

I purchased a used car with a 12 month MOT in Feb.   

 

In June after around 3000 miles the car stopped by the side of the road and AA couldnt get it restarted.   

Took it to local garage and notified the dealer

 

Garage called me a week later and said that in their experience it will require a full engine teardown to give an actual cause of the issue. 

It didnt have coolant in it when they looked at it but they couldnt tell me what actually caused the issue. 

 

Sent an email to the dealer rejecting the car under the CRA and requesting they collect the car for repair or refund if they are unwilling to repair. 

 

after no communication the original garage was getting a bit fed up so I recovered car to my address at my expense. 

 

dealer says they will look at the car and asks me to pay for recovery to them. 

I point out in the CRA that it is their responsibility and expense to collect car

they collect car at end of july

 

I chase multiple times over next 5 weeks and have literally zero response to emails.  Submit MCOL start of Sept

 

They have rejected my claim and now say that they have a report dated 18th August saying the car broke due to lack of coolant and it is drivers responsibility to check this.   They have also said that if i choose to continue claim they will bill me for storage since 18th August. 

 

Mediation is now scheduled and I want to know that I am on the right course and the law is on my side. 

 

I have given them plenty time to look at this, they chose to withhold a report from me and allow me to submit the mcol. 

They requested the 14 day extension on the defence and submitted less than 1 hour before the deadline. They are dragging it out

 

No warning light came on in the car saying the coolant was low or overheating.   

 

The lack of coolant might be why it broke on the day but thats not actually what was wrong with the car. 

There must be something else that causes the lack of coolant.

Is it their job to prove the cars coolant system was in good working condition when i bought it? 

Or can they just say 'the driver didnt check the coolant so its his fault'

 

I feel like I still have a case but it feels very David v Goliath at the moment as they have a solicitor.   

 

What can i do to prepare for mediation? 

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

Who is the "legal rep"/solicitor?

[DiscoCow]

A trade firm called Lawgistics

[dx100uk]

aha we know them well

always on the side of the trader watchout, they pull tricks trying to catch you out.

 

dx

 

[dx100uk]

so the car was outside of 30 days return. but inside of 6mts.

its down to them to produce a report that proves whatever happened was not present at time of purchase .

they have one chance to repair, else you can reject the car.

 

seems like you rushed a bit here issuing the court claim?

did you write a letter of complaint first? 

did you send a letter of claim after that FIRST giving them 30 days before you issued the claim?

 

 

[DiscoCow]

It was just under 2 months between sending them the letter saying i was requesting a repair under CRA and then issuing the MCOL.

 

This was after they collected the car at end of July and didnt respond to any messages when I finally got fed up and issued the claim start of September. 

 

their mcol rejection said they didnt think it was suitable for a decision to be made on paperwork alone as they wanted to cross examine me.  So not sure what they will do on mediation.  

 

do you think this would be a report simply saying that there was coolant in the car? 

 

Or one saying the coolant system was functional and fault free?

[dx100uk]

the time lines and evidence here need looking at.

 

can you scan up everything you have in/out to them  or anyone elseto one multipage pdf please

put it in time order

you only need to remove YOUR details, reg number, their ref number etc, you dont need to remove their details.

 

read our upload guide carefully please.

 

we also need a full timeline of events/comms with dates

bullet points will do.

 

dx

[Manxman in exile]

Please excuse a stupid question, but you had the car for four months and covered about 3000 miles.  Presumably you had checked oil and coolant levels regularly over the period, and topped up as necessary?  It's just that you haven't said if you did or didn't.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Manxman in exile

[DiscoCow]

define regularly.

 

I suspect thats what this will come down to.   

How do i prove that I had looked at the coolant levels?  If i had it from Feb to June i probably would have glanced at the levels a few times but i didnt record myself doing 

 

RAC guidance states that coolant should be checked twice a year.  Manufacture book for the car model states 'hardly any losses occur since the system is sealed and thus it is rarely necessary to top up the coolant'. 

 

I have searched and searched for anything that says what a reasonable normal driver would do but i havent seen anything concrete. 

[dx100uk]

i wouldnt worry about that

 

can you get all the comms up so we can gauge were you stand please.

 

dx

[Manxman in exile]

3 hours ago, DiscoCow said:

define regularly.

 

I suspect thats what this will come down to.   

How do i prove that I had looked at the coolant levels?  If i had it from Feb to June i probably would have glanced at the levels a few times but i didnt record myself doing 

 

RAC guidance states that coolant should be checked twice a year.  Manufacture book for the car model states 'hardly any losses occur since the system is sealed and thus it is rarely necessary to top up the coolant'. 

 

I have searched and searched for anything that says what a reasonable normal driver would do but i havent seen anything concrete. 

 

I have a Ford.  According to them you should check coolant level each time you fill up with fuel.

 

How to Check and Add Engine Coolant (ford.co.uk)

 

I should qualify that by saying that I don't do so myself.  (In eight years I've checked the coolant level a total of about four times.  The first time I checked it was low so I topped it up.  The last time was two weeks ago and it was OK.)

 

I'm not asking because I'm trying to trick you or to catch you out, or because I'm telling you to do what I say and not what I do, but because I'm as much interested by what people don't say as by what they do say.  I'm simply suggesting to you that in any dispute of this kind you are likely to be asked how regularly you checked the coolant level.  If you answer "How regular is regularly?" you might just possibly present as a bit evasive.

 

Rather than take the view "i wouldn't worry about that" I would suggest that, on the contrary, it might be worth giving some thought to it.

 

It's not always helpful to skirt over difficult questions that might be asked.

 

Better to be prepared...

[DiscoCow]

I appreciate that.  Its a trap between 'i check it regularly' which means the fault is new so wasn't there on sale or 'i haven't checked it since purchasing' and then im not looking after the vehicle. 

 

Luckily the manufacturer guidelines are on my side but yes you are right that i should consider how i come across with those type of questions 

 

Thanks for the input 

[dx100uk]

We don't know the full story.

 

Dx

[DiscoCow]

Dont need to get in to the details of the claim itself .

 

hoping for a bit of guidance as now in the situation where

 

mediation failed and i am waiting on a court date. 

 

The MOT has expired and the car is untaxed. 

 

I have emailed the lawyer handling the case asking if we can scrap the car to get rid while we wait for court and had no response, 

 

I have forwarded the email to the dealer and had no response either.  

 

I have then emailed asking for confirmation that the car is off road so I can sorn it and had no response from either person. 

 

The car is undrivable, doesnt have a working engine, so it isnt going anywhere. 

 

I would feel better having confirmation that it is off road when i sorn it. 

 

I would also prefer to scrap it and believe they will ultimately do that (thats all they offered me in mediation, the price of the car as scrap) but i dont want to do that without their approval incase they try claim they want the car back when it gets to court.  

 

Any thoughts or ideas on what I can do to protect myself?

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

Is this query connected with your previous thread please?

 

 

HB

[DiscoCow]

it is the same claim yes but not really connected as I am not looking for guidance on the claim itself, just on this particular aspect.  

 

 

[dx100uk]

nothing to stop you sorning the car no.

but i would not scrap it not yours to do that with if its never coming back...

[DiscoCow]

thanks dx.   Do i need to worry about not being able to confirm it is off road?  Or just sorn it as the other option of leaving it untouched isnt really an option anyway

[dx100uk]

you would be liable if it were

however instead of keeping us in the dark here and in that other thread tell us fully whats going on.

 

you also seem to be allowing the NME to dictate what you can and cant do with your own car.

tell them its now sorn'd and must not be placed or used on a public highway. else you will hold them liable in court too.

 

[DiscoCow]

Well I dont know what benefit there is in a timeline of events at this point but happy to provide if you feel you can add value to my process. 

 

I have typed it all out and uploaded to 

 

 

I cant bring myself to redact the dozens of emails but if it is of benefit then I will try find time.  At this point i am in the stage of nothing to lose.  If i go to court and lose then I will scrap the car and only get back what they offered me anyway

 

 

And yes, I know I have done things wrong at various points and worded things in the wrong way so no point pointing out things i cant really change now.  I have tried to be more than reasonable with them and in hindsight they have taken me for a ride

 

28th Feb – car purchase from Hankins car sales. 2010 Vauxhall Zafira 7 seater. 116k miles on it and 11 month MOT. Given 6 month warranty. Garage is about 1hr away from me

27th May- car broke down whilst driving. AA attended and stated the DPF was blocked and was not feasible to repair. Towed me to a local garage

8th June – Garage contacted me to say that the car was beyond any degree of economical repair. They would need to dismantle the engine to say what caused the fault but they could see there was no coolant in the reservoir and the engine was seized.

 

They said that the AA report was incorrect and if it was his car then he wouldn’t take any further as the cost to give a definitive diagnosis was going to be very significant.

 

On this date I notified Hankins that the car had broken and told them where it was for it to be collected for investigation as I understood I had to give them a chance to repair before seeking refund.

16th June – resent the email dated 8th June as no response. Included a LBA I made using template found online. The core is this is below:

On 26/02/2022 I purchased the above Vauxhall Zafira from you.

On 27/05/2022 I discovered that it was not of satisfactory quality: The engine cut out whilst driving and the AA were unable to get it restarted.

 

On taking it to a local garage I have been informed that there are many issues with the car and they are unable to get it to start. They have mentioned potential oil issues, compression issues, and coolant issues. Essentially as it is they are unable to get the car started without a lot of investigation. The mechanic advised me that if it was his car he probably wouldn’t even start as it appears to have serious issues.

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 requires dealers to supply goods that are fit for purpose, as described and of satisfactory quality. However, the vehicle is clearly not roadworthy. You are therefore in breach of contract.

I am legally entitled to ask that you repair or replace this vehicle at no further cost to me. I requested this on 08/06/2022 by replying to an email you had previously sent to me and you have not responded. This invited you to collect the car to investigate the issues to your own satisfaction

 

If you are unable or unwilling to do so, I expect to be reimbursed the original purchase price of £2470, minus an agreed amount for fair usage prior to the breakdown. If you fail to reimburse me or repair the vehicle, I shall have no alternative but to issue a claim against you in the county court for recovery of the money without further reference to you.

17th June – dealer acknowledged receipt and requested diagnosis reports. I explained that the garage said this would not be economical and I didn’t want to then seek these costs back from Hankins , I felt it best for them to collect the car themselves for investigation. Reiterated the contact details and location of the car

21 June – Hankins again asks for reports. I again explain the above.

28th June – I email again as no further response and state that if they are not willing to attempt a repair or replacement then to advise to I can start the mcol claim on the basis that the car was not of satisfactory quality. I told them I would do this on 1st July if no resolution.

30th June – received email from Lawgistics- solicitor working on behalf of Hankins. He requested I wait a ‘reasonable’ length of time for a resolution and stated that there is no definition of this and could be up to 3 months.

30th June – I reply to lawyer saying that I am only willing to wait as long as there is progress. I confirm current mileage which is now £120k and state that as Hankins refused to collect the car for investigation I have had to do this at my own expense and will be adding this to the claim as well as any ongoing tax and insurance costs. The car is now at my home.

1st July – lawyers confirms receipt of my email and says ‘I will discuss with my clients’

4th July – lawyer requests reports from original garage. State what I have told Hankins multiple times

5th July - ‘I will discuss with my clients’

13th July – ‘My clients agree, they do need to inspect the vehicle’. ‘Please return it at your convenience’

13th July – I reply that as I am making a claim under the CRA then this process should not involve me incurring costs or inconvenience. I state that it has been 5 weeks since I asked the garage to collect the vehicle and this represents absolutely zero progress. I state that this is ‘really pushing things in terms of resolving the matter in a timely manner’. I copy section 9.24 from https://www.businesscompanion.info/focus/car-traders-and-consumer-law/part-b-your-obligations-under-consumer-rights-act-2015-cra

 

 

20th July – lawyer asks when it would be convenient to collect the vehicle

26th July – I apologise for late reply and say that I work from home and the car can be collected at any point

28th July – lawyer says car collection will be 29th

29th July – car collected no problems.

11th August – I email asking for an update as no further information since car collected

12th August - ‘I will chase my clients’

17th August – chase again as no news or follow up since last emails

17th August – ‘I expect a response shortly’

24th August – Chase again as no response from previous chasing. I state that this matter is causing massive inconvenience as school is about to go back and I need a car

3rd September – After no response to anything since the car was collected on 29th July I issue proceedings through MCOL requesting the value of the car as well as the insurance, tax, recovery costs.

13th September- Lawyer acknowledges that I have made a claim and says that Mr Hankins wife has passed away so asks for me to send the initial paperwork to him so he can leave the client to grieve.

13th Sept – Me – ‘Hi, I am sorry to hear of Mr Hankins loss. I have attached the paperwork to this email. I didn’t want to issue proceedings but I am sure you can appreciate with that after having no meaningful communication since 29th July I was left with no other choice’ (in hindsight I shouldn’t have provided the paperwork but the guys wife had just died and I’m generally a nice person)

13th Sept – lawyer replies saying he understands and I do what I have to do

 

15th Sept – I received note from courts saying that Hankins had been given  an extra 14 days to respond. Deadline is 4pm on 10th October

10th October – 3pm on 10th October I receive note from court that Hankins has rejected my claim. They state that they have a mechanics report dated 13th August that states that the car was driven without coolant and this caused the engine to break so it was user error. I accept mediation as next step. In the midst of the rejection they state that they will come after me for costs of storing this vehicle if I choose to continue the claim

28th October – mediation scheduled.

 

I have done a lot of research at this point and have confirmed that there is no manufacture guidelines stating how often coolant should be checked. RAC and AA both say twice a year or when car is taken out of storage. In fact the manufacturer booklet in the car states that if coolant is leaking then to take to garage to investigate this fault.

 

I am confident that if the manufacturer states that looking coolant is a fault then we have to assume this fault existed when the car was sold to me. There is no firm guidance on how often I should check so I feel like I have a good case.

 

I speak at length with the mediator and admit that to get it done and dusted I would take an offer and probably be ok with 50%. He goes off to speak to Hankins or the lawyer (I don’t know who was on the line) and comes back saying that ‘It appears that only one of you came here with the right intentions’. Hankins offer £300 if I sign the car back to them. Basically less than scrap value. I reject this.

1st Nov – email received confirming claim transferred to county court.

 

26th Nov- I email lawyer - Hi xxxxx, Hope you are keeping well In regards to the above car and the ongoing dispute with Hankins.

 

I understand that the case has now been transferred to County Court in Peterborough and we await the next steps.

 

Realistically this could be a while to get a court date arranged and during this point I am still incurring costs and your client are still storing the vehicle. Are we all in agreement that this vehicle will eventually be scrapped? If so then I do not see the point in prolonging that part of the process. This will minimize losses on my side and allow your client to stop storing the car. Are there any objections to this from your side?

 

This would not be settling my claim in any way and if successful once we get to court then the scrap value already received would be deducted from the claim. Obviously I have rejected the car so if your clients would like the actual car back once this is all done then thats fine and we will continue with the current status quo.

 

I do believe that during the mediation call the intention on your side was to scrap the car anyway so if we all have the same opinion on where the car ends up it may be better to do this sooner rather than later. Thanks

27th Nov – ‘I will discuss with my clients’

I do not chase this because in my head I have approached them to seek a solution to avoid them incurring storage costs. The fact that they have not engaged with me would make it harder for them to try claim against me (there has been no discussion on storage terms anyway so I am not overtly worried about any claim there)

28th Jan – I email lawyer stating that the MOT has expired and the tax renewal is due. Request confirmation of off road status and request update on previous email.

6th Feb – forward on above post mediation emails to the garage directly as no communication from lawyer. No response as yet

 

[DiscoCow]

I have actually just had a note through the door about 10 minutes ago saying the preliminary hearing has been set for 23rd Feb.  The letter is dated 22nd Nov 22 for some reason but ive got it now

[dx100uk]

have you to exchange witness statements?

or are you using the new online mcol system?

 

dx

[DiscoCow]

I submitted through mcol although that's now closed since mediation failed. 

I haven't seen the mechanics report that they produced.

[dx100uk]

21 hours ago, DiscoCow said:

I have actually just had a note through the door about 10 minutes ago saying the preliminary hearing has been set for 23rd Feb.  The letter is dated 22nd Nov 22 for some reason but ive got it now

scan this up please to PDF

read upload carefully

[DiscoCow]

court letter uploaded.  Cropped my own name off the top line.  

Court Letter.pdf