Revenue officer behaviour complaint

[Grays]

I jumped on a train, since it was there as I arrived, with the intention of either buying a ticket on board or at the other end. 

 

Instead, I was told I’m getting fined £20 because I can’t travel without a ticket. I’m okay with that. I’ll pay the £20 when the letter comes even though I had the full intention of buying a ticket at the platform since there was no ticket officer on board.

 

What I don’t understand is:-

Why on some trains there’s a ticket officer selling and checking tickets? It’s giving people the opportunity to purchase a ticket if they missed it. Why could this not have been applied here albeit at the platform.

 

The revenue officer I dealt with told me that the £20 fine was “the law”, “this has gone through Parliament”, “it is not me, it is the government”. Shouldn’t there be on the spot fines rather than a chance to purchase a ticket whilst on board to make that rule consistent?

 

I’d also be interested in when did they stop selling tickets at Piccadilly station in Manchester when you get off the train. I don’t get the train regularly so totally unaware of rule/process change.

 

This revenue officer also threatened me with getting the police, time wasting, some other offence starting with TR something or other (it was an acronym that meant nothing to me), a £100 fine and finally, court action. 

I did ask him to get the police because I was unsure of the legitimacy of what was happening to me at that point. I didn’t know what a revenue officer was and he only flashed a badge that said Revenue Officer, in big letters, to me. No further details on it. I thought anyone can have a badge like it with a hi-vis jacket and ask me to give my name and address. Doesn’t mean I can trust them.

 

Whilst I’m dealing with this revenue officer, his colleague chips in. We’ll call him colleague B. 
Colleague B: How old are you?

Me: What does it matter?

Colleague B: Because you’re acting like a little…

Me: A little what?

He was then shuffled along by yet another colleague.

 

 I passed on my details to the first revenue officer. Gathered my thoughts and decided I would complain about Colleague B’s behaviour. I asked the revenue officer for his colleague’s details so I could complain about him. He went to get him. 

Colleague B: Charlie Sierra

At this point I’m confused as to why he’s just saying random words to me as he’s approaching, so I ask to see his badge.

Colleague B: Are you accusing me of lying?

Me: No, I just want to see your badge so I know I have the right badge number.

He didn’t want to give his name. I’m hoping a badge number will be sufficient. There also was no photo on the badge so I was not able to actually ID him properly.

 

He could be wearing someone else’s badge! Who knows?! It wasn’t very official looking that’s for sure.

 

 I want to go ahead with this complaint as I don’t approve of them requesting to be treated with respect but there’s no respect for commuters. It’s a two-way street, in my opinion, and a little respect and kindness would have stopped the whole thing escalating as much as it did.

 

What are people’s experience of thoughts and experience of this?

 

 

[dx100uk]

drop the complaint. you've been watching too many auditor videos on youtube

 

i feel this will not just be a £20 fine as you think

 

lets see if they send a letter, they have 6mts.

 

 

[BazzaS]

I’m just wondering how the revenue protection staff member differentiates between

a) you, the completely law abiding and dignity affronted member of the public who, of course, fully intended to buy a ticket, and

b) the inveterate fare dodger who puffs out their chest, threatens to complain about the ‘jobsworth’, and generally fails “the attitude test”.

 

Was there an open ticket office at your boarding station, or, if not, a working ticket machine?

If so, you can’t avail yourself of one of those statutory defences to those pesky railway bylaws ….

 

Were you in a ‘penalty fare’ area?

[Grays]

My issue is more the attitude of the staff member, the method of delivery and, the belittlement.

 

Oh and the intimidation.

[BazzaS]

There has never been the rule that they must sell you a ticket at your destination: it is your obligation to buy one at the first available opportunity: at the station even if it means missing the train sitting on the platform, or seeking out the staff if there really were no ticket facilities at the station (which the onboard staff will know, and the prosecutions unit will have access to the records, too).

 

If you declined the £20 penalty fare,  they might even go for a S5 Regulation of Railways Act  (RRA)1889 prosecution, if not for the initial fare, but for the penalty fare, which was payable at the time, or if you accepted the penalty. If you didn’t accept the penalty : they can chose a bylaw prosecution or RRA 1889 prosecution.

[Grays]

Thank you

[dx100uk]

forget it moved on stop acting like a  snowflake.

 

dx

 

[BazzaS]

Well, you can choose:

Contrite, accept you were travelling without a ticket, or

”point of principle”, let them know how awful the member of staff was to you, and how dare they expect you to have a ticket before travelling!

 

So, how do you think the prosecutions team decide how to proceed?.

 

Bear in mind you may get a chance to tell the Magistrates how awfully you were treated (and they’ll not be able to consider that as a defence, merely mitigation if convicted). Again, how do you think they distinguish between the fare dodger seeking to excuse their fare dodging, and the unfortunate member of the travelling public caught out by circumstance….

Edited January 11, 2023 by BazzaS

[Grays]

I do accept I was travelling without a ticket and I accept I have to pay the fine. The two matters are separate. Thanks anyway.

[BazzaS]

Well, they are separate in terms of result, but become linked, if the penalty fare isn’t offered or is declined.

 

“Attitude test” failure might mean no penalty fare being offered: they are meant for when the revenue staff don’t feel there is a deliberate attempt not to pay.

 

Being offered a penalty fare and declining it: again bylaw or RRA. They don’t have to offer the penalty fare more than once.

As has been previously advised : see what turns up through the post!

 

Does your job require a DBS / eDBS??

Edited January 11, 2023 by BazzaS

[Grays]

Dx, I don’t want to forget it. If it was I being disrespectful to them, would they forget it? It’s not being a snowflake it’s exercising my rights and not letting power get to people’s head.

[BazzaS]

Yup, you absolutely have the right to your day in court if they decide to prosecute.

[Grays]

I don’t understand why they’d prosecute off the back of me making a complaint about a staff member but also paying the fine. What would the grounds be?

[dx100uk]

2 hours ago, Grays said:

If it was I being disrespectful to them, would they forget it?

yes, it's a part of their everyday job.

 

2 hours ago, Grays said:

I don’t understand why they’d prosecute off the back of me making a complaint about a staff member but also paying the fine.

no-one is saying they will.

 

 

 

[BazzaS]

3 hours ago, Grays said:

I don’t understand why they’d prosecute off the back of me making a complaint about a staff member but also paying the fine. What would the grounds be?

They’d prosecute for you travelling without a ticket and / or failing to pay the penalty fare at the time it was offered.

 

They’d not prosecute for you making a complaint.

 

They’d just CHOOSE not to exercise their discretion NOT to prosecute

 

{Any decision not to prosecute being made because they might consider (from your attitude, then and since!) that you were a reasonable member of the travelling public who had made a mistake and wasn’t wasting their staff’s time, and you weren’t likely to re-offend}.

 

Having declined the penalty fare offered to you, the on-train staff may have reported you for consideration of prosecution. The penalty fare option may no longer be available to you : which is why you need to see what is in any letter you may now receive.

Edited January 12, 2023 by BazzaS

[Kyosanto]

If I could get compensation everytime a public transport employee was rude to me, I could quit my job right now!

 

This won't be of any use to OP for this time but if I have to jump in a train without a ticket I usually immediately go on my phone and buy one, does the trick. Hurrah for the 21st century.

[Grays]

I didn’t decline any penalty fare. I was only asked for my address to send me a letter with the penalty fare. I’ve not refused to pay anything.

i repeat again that I will pay the penalty fare when it comes.

 

If you’re happy with staff being rude to you and going about your day, so be it, you give them grounds and permission to treat you like that. Your decision. You be abusive to them you get reported right away. Works both ways.

 

im not sure why there keeps being a narrative about prosecution because I certainly didn’t do anything wrong. Yes, I didn’t have a ticket. I was told there’s a penalty and I accepted it. How does that lead to prosecution?!

[honeybee13]

You'll only know about possible prosecution once they write to you.

 

HB

[BazzaS]

On 12/01/2023 at 07:05, Grays said:

 

im not sure why there keeps being a narrative about prosecution because I certainly didn’t do anything wrong. Yes, I didn’t have a ticket. I was told there’s a penalty and I accepted it. How does that lead to prosecution?!

Yet you also report (& don’t forget this is “your side of the story”, and their report will feature “their side of the story”) :

 

Quote

”This revenue officer also threatened me with getting the police, time wasting, some other offence starting with TR something or other (it was an acronym that meant nothing to me), a £100 fine and finally, court action.”

 

So it seems that they felt you were doing something wrong beyond “not showing a valid ticket, when asked”, such as not giving your name and address when asked (why else would they threaten you with the police?) and then threaten court?

 

A prosecution under S5(1) RRA 1889 wouldn’t be prevented by later giving name and address if there was an initial failure to do so (it’d be mitigation rather than a defence).

 

Prosecution under either or both of S5(1) and S5(3) RRA 1889 wouldn’t be prevented by later paying your fare if there was an initial failure to do so (it’d be mitigation rather than a defence).

 

The Act is over 130 years old, with plenty of case law …..

 

On 12/01/2023 at 07:05, Grays said:

If you’re happy with staff being rude to you and going about your day, so be it, you give them grounds and permission to treat you like that. Your decision.

If staff were rude to me I’d report it.

 

The difference, I guess, is that I wouldn’t have been travelling without a ticket, so couldn’t have looked like a fare dodger “trying it on”.

 

(Notice I’m saying “looked like” rather than “was”, going back to my previous comment of:)

 

I’m just wondering how the revenue protection staff member differentiates between

a) you, the completely law abiding and dignity affronted member of the public who, of course, fully intended to buy a ticket, and

b) the inveterate fare dodger who puffs out their chest, threatens to complain about the ‘jobsworth’, and generally fails “the attitude test”.

[Grays]

I went to them and asked to buy a ticket but that’s a detail.

In fact, it’s all my word against theirs cause there’s no recording of the event. It’s about what I know and I said and what they said. They can all collude and come up with a version of events that completely quashes mine. I’m totally aware of that. At the end of the day, it’s about doing the honest thing which I’ve done all along and will continue doing by paying the penalty fare and by reporting abusive behaviour.

[honeybee13]

Well, you've clearly made your mind up. Please let us know what their letter says when it arrives and how the complaint goes.

 

HB

[BazzaS]

Most revenue protection staff wear bodycams these days.

 

This is good, of course, as it will no doubt back up your version of events if it comes to it.

Nothing to stop you SAR’ing the Train Operating Company (TOC) for any footage.

 

Were there ticket buying facilities at your initial station?

Was this Northern Trains, on one of the routes into Manchester shown on

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/sites/default/files/2022-07/Penatly Fares Map - Jul 2022.pdf

 

If so, might you have managed to miss the (not inconspicuous) signs such as https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-penalty-fare-railway-warning-notice-31570596.html …….

 

 

[Grays]

They responded with an apology and mentioned that due to GDPR they can’t tell me the outcome of their investigations.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Grays
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