Speeding offences, failed to show leading to 6 month Disqualification-need advice and help

[Smitch]

Totally my fault but need some advice if possible...will try to keep it short.

 

In august 2018 I picked up an sp30 (exceeding statutory limit on a public road)occurring 3 points

3 weeks later unfortunately I picked up another offence sp50 (speeding on a motorway) occurring 3 points.....now a total of 6 points on my licence .

 

All these were taken care of in fines payment.

 

In all this I had forgotten to change my V5 document to a new address, my fault totally to much going on in personal life,my tax and insurance all up to date via direct debit etc etc. I just completely forgot about the v5.

 

Then in march 2019 ,I incurred another speeding offence of which I only found out some 10 months later on 29th february 2020. This was an ms90 witha fine of £660.00.

 

Obviously because I hadn't change my v5 address this case went to court of which I was unaware of. This has obviously led to FTP and a totting up of points being 12 or more in 3 years because 6 points come from the Ms90 and a no show. This has also led to a 6 month "DISQUALIFICATION " as of 15th November 2019.

Immediately the letter came I acted on this I contacted the HMCTS in Surrey where the details were logged and of course I have started making payments on this.

 

I have also set up at my local court to make a statutory declaration which is in 2 weeks.

 

I am obviously guilty of the offence , is there anything I can do in regards to the FAIL TO PROVIDE. I know notification of the V5 is my responsibility but I know had I had known I would have attended which would have surely stopped the total of the 6 points already being added to my 6 points.

 

I feel awful about this ,what is the best direction for me ,can points be removed and my disqualification lifted in any way.

 

I know I have to pay the fine ...do I make the statutory declaration or do I just pay the fine and wait for my reinstatement of being able to drive again may. 

 

Hope someone can help with guidance and advice 

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

We have a few people who advise on motoring offences, hopefully they'll be along later.

 

Best, HB

[Smitch]

Thank you HB

 

Kind regards

[dx100uk]

as far as I remember things man in the middle has posted of recent

for whatever reason you did not get the NiP, so you can do an SD, and that should reset things.

whay I believe you don't then do is hold your hand up to the speeding I think

 

go read this thread

it's a bit long winded by MiTm explains the way to go.

it doesn't matter your situation is not exactly the same

its the SD process and what to or not say and the deal that is usually done.

 

 

 

hth

 

dx

 

[Man in the middle]

Yes the quoted thread is a little complicated because it involves somebody allegedly falsifying documents, so let's keep it simple.

 

The Statutory Declaration (SD) sets aside the original conviction and nullifies any penalties made as a result.

It is then open to the prosecution to recommence the proceedings, Once you have made it you will almost certainly be asked to enter a plea.

 

What you need to negotiate is a deal where you agree to plead guilty to the original speeding offence but only provided the "Fail to Provide Driver's Details" (FtP) charge is dropped. As it stands you cannot be convicted of speeding as they have no evidence that you were driving, so do not under any circumstances plead guilty to it unless and until the agreement is in place. To do so is a potential route to convictions for both and nine (or more) points.

 

This bargain is a common arrangement which is well known to prosecutors and Magistrates and is undertaken every day across the country. Once you have it in place you can then simply plead guilty to speeding and will be sentenced.

 

If you can, arrive at court early and when you check in at reception ask to see the prosecutor who is working in the court to which your matter has been allocated. You can then put your proposal to him or her before the court sits. If you cannot do this, simply make your offer in court when you are asked to enter your plea.

 

In the highly unlikely event that your offer is not accepted, plead Not Guilty to the FtP charge (and speeding if it is put to you).

The FtP matter will then be listed for trial at a later date and you can decide between now and then whether you have a reasonable chance of success defending that matter. If you decide you have not then you can always change your plea before your trial date.

Do not be pressured into pleading guilty at this stage. Simply maintain that you want to take advice.

 

As an aside do you know the alleged speed and limit for the original speeding offence?

Magistrates have the option to award up to six points for speeding (largely depending on the speed alleged) and you may find yourself facing a "totting up" ban again. You would then have to think about an "Exceptional Hardship" argument.

[Smitch]

Thank you for your reply, I am trying to find out about the original speeding offence as I have no details on this 

 

Kind regards 

 

Thank you 

[Smitch]

Thank you ,

so my best option is to get to the court early

,speak with the prosecutor and try to get the FTP dropped. 

Pleading not guilty will obviously drop all charges.

 

Does this mean that the 6 points (ftp and speeding offence) are automatically removed from your licence 

 

Like you say also if a deal is made where you have the Ftp dropped and its agreed ,then you can plead guilty to the speed offence which would mean I would only have 9 points on my licence and I guess be allowed to drive and licence reinstated.

[Man in the middle]

23 minutes ago, Smitch said:

Thank you ,so my best option is to get to the court early ,speak with the prosecutor and try to get the FTP dropped. 

 

Yes. If you cannot speak to the prosecutor beforehand, go into court when called, make your SD. Then, when you are asked to plead to the offences make your offer.

 

24 minutes ago, Smitch said:

Pleading not guilty will obviously drop all charges.

 

No it doesn't drop the charges. It means there will have to be a trial for them, where the prosecution has to prove its case, if you are to be convicted.

 

26 minutes ago, Smitch said:

Does this mean that the 6 points (ftp and speeding offence) are automatically removed from your licence 

 

You will currently only have a conviction for FtP (which attracts six points on its own). You could not have been convicted of speeding as they have no proof that you were driving (offering to plead guilty to it is your "bargaining chip"). Your SD will set the FtP conviction aside and nullify the penalty (fine and points).

 

28 minutes ago, Smitch said:

Like you say also if a deal is made where you have the Ftp dropped and its agreed ,then you can plead guilty to the speed offence which would mean I would only have 9 points on my licence and I guess be allowed to drive and licence reinstated.

 

Correct. Providing, that is, the speed alleged does not take you into the six point sentencing bracket (four or five will be OK because then you'll only have ten or eleven points). Find out the limit and the alleged speed and I'll let you know the likely outcome.

[Smitch]

Hey thank you for your information, I will find out the details and send you a message. 

 

Kindest regards 

[Smitch]

Hello good morning,

 

Thank you for your help a few days ago , I have found out that the speed was 38 mph in a 30mph zone.

I have been sent all the paperwork from Sussex police and I have my statutory declaration on the 20th february.

I'm guessing will I be ok to plead not guilty to the FTP and guilty to the speeding offence.

 

 

[Manxman in exile]

43 minutes ago, Smitch said:

Hello good morning,

 

Thank you for your help a few days ago , I have found out that the speed was 38 mph in a 30mph zone.

I have been sent all the paperwork from Sussex police and I have my statutory declaration on the 20th february.

I'm guessing will I be ok to plead not guilty to the FTP and guilty to the speeding offence.

 

 

 

Sorry, but I think you may(?) have misunderstood the advice given by Man in the Middle.

 

After you swear your statutory declaration you will probably be asked how you plead to the FTP and speeding charges.  If that happens you need to plead Not Guilty to both charges.  The trial should then be adjourned to a later date.  On the date of the trial you get to the court early and tell one of the ushers that you want to speak to the prosecutor dealing with traffic offences.  You tell the prosecutor that if, and only if, they drop the failure to provide charge, then you will change your speeding plea to guilty.

 

Don't plead guilty to anything until they agree to drop the FTP charge.

 

If I've got this wrong I'm sure MITM will correct me.

[Manxman in exile]

Question for Man in the middle for clarification: 

On re-reading the OP I see the original speeding offence was committed about a year ago. 

Does that have any bearing on the OP's strategy, or is it irrelevant? 

(Why do I think that may be important?)

 

Thanks.

[Smitch]

Thank you for this information, I'm sure man in the middle will reply ,you've all been really helpful ,just want to go about this the right way.

 

It seems the case to plead not guilty on both ,

I was under the impression that would be to try and have the FTP dropped prior so pleading not guilty on the FTP.

[dx100uk]

the date of the offence is immaterial, you didn't receive the NiP is the important bit.

 

as for your latter question....read below carefully.

 

On 04/02/2020 at 16:30, Man in the middle said:

You will currently only have a conviction for FtP (which attracts six points on its own). You could not have been convicted of speeding as they have no proof that you were driving (offering to plead guilty to it is your "bargaining chip"). Your SD will set the FtP conviction aside and nullify the penalty (fine and points).

 

dx

[Manxman in exile]

You have to plead Not Guilty to both charges initially, this then allows you to offer a plea bargain at trial where you tell the prosecution "Look - if you drop the failure to identify the driver charge, I'll be willing to change my plea to Guilty for the speeding".

 

If you plead guilty to the speeding before they drop the other charge, you run the risk of being convicted of both.

[Smitch]

Thank you ...so at my SD hearing plead not guilty 

 

so plead not guilty at my SD hearing in a couple of weeks time...apologies I seem a little confused on all this...thank you for your help 

 

Does this also mean pleading not guilty to both will lift the points on my licence 

 

Thank you for your Help MIM.

my apologies on constant messages.

 

The speed in question was 38 in a 30.

 

Just wondering what your thoughts are in regards to how I go about my statutory declaration in a couple of weeks.

Obviously I try and bargain beforehand with the prosecutor if i can.

 

Do i plead not guilty to both on the day ,

I'm obviously making myself known (FTP) as explained earlier because of my v5 not being change address wise.

 

I definitely know I plead not guilty to FTP as I did not know.

 

Having not had this experience before it just started getting a little confusing. 

 

Hope you don't mind commenting 

 

Thank you 

 

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

I hope you don't mind my asking if there's some confusion about the two hearings, Smitch? The SD as I understand it is separate from the speeding hearing. 

 

It's at the rearranged speeding hearing when you talk to the prosecutor. 

 

Apologies if I've misunderstood. 

 

HB

[dx100uk]

gentlemen please simply type not keep hitting quote

there is no need to repeat what the person you are replying to has already typed.

 

just makes the thread twice as big to scroll thru.

 

yes HB I think the same not understanding its 2 hearing.

[Manxman in exile]

OK.  I think the OP may be under the impression that the SD and the "plea bargain"  are one and the same hearing. 

 

OP - if you read #11 again, what usually happens is that after you've sworn your SD you will be asked how you plead.  If you are charged with both speeding and failure to identify, you plead Not Guilty to both and the hearing will be adjourned to a later date.  At that later hearing you offer to change your plea to Guilty for the speeding if, and only if, they drop the failure to identify charge.

 

(I posted #11 because the OP seemed to be saying at #10 that at their SD hearing they would plead NG to failure to identify but Guilty to speeding, which could see them convicted of both offences - which they want to avoid).

 

What I am definitely unsure about - and this was the point of my question to MITM - what does the OP do if they are only asked to plead to the failure to identify charge, and are not dual charged with the speeding because the speeding offence may by now have timed out?  There is then no opportunity to do a plea bargain.

 

Do you see what I mean?

 

(Apologies if I've made it more complicated but I only posted in response to #10 because it seemed clear to me the OP had misunderstood MITM's advice!)

[Man in the middle]

Let's see if we can bottom some of this out!

 

Manxman has explained it perfectly. It is the SD which sets aside your conviction. Once that is done it is up to the prosecution to decide whether or not to re-start the proceedings - and they invariably do. That is why you will be asked to enter your pleas immediately after your SD. It is usual for somebody in this position to be "dual charged" (but see below if you have not).

 

In most courts you will be able to do your "deal" at that point. There is an overriding aim to prevent wasting court time and to schedule a trial when a "deal" (and hence a guilty plea) will follow is wasteful. But if by any chance the deal is not agreed and the matter is adjourned for a trial, simply maintain your NG pleas and keep your powder dry for another day. You may be asked the basis for your NG plea (to the FtP) just say you want time to take advice. 

 

5 hours ago, Manxman in exile said:

What I am definitely unsure about - and this was the point of my question to MITM - what does the OP do if they are only asked to plead to the failure to identify charge, and are not dual charged with the speeding because the speeding offence may by now have timed out?  There is then no opportunity to do a plea bargain.

 

There are two scenarios (with similar "symptoms") which introduce complications. The first is that speeding may not have been charged. It is very unusual. However, a sympathetic prosecutor may, with the court's cooperation, raise the original speeding allegation as a new charge, evenif it is "out of time". The purpose of the "six month" rule is to protect those accused of excessive delays in having charges for summary offences raised. So long as the defendant agrees (and he's hardly likely not to) it's usually possible to raise the speeding charge and the deal can be struck.

 

The second is that the deal will not be accepted. This also would be very unusual. All the defendant can do where he cannot do the deal is to plead NG to the FtP charge and give himself some breathing space to see if he has a realistic chance of defending that charge. Each case would turn on its merits but I don't think the OP needs to worry about  that at this stage.

 

Prosecutors are far more willing to accept a guilty plea to the underlying offence than to possibly have to run a trial for FtP. As well as that, perhaps surprisingly to some, most of them see it as far more just to obtain a conviction for a relatively minor offence of speeding than to see the defendant end up with six points and an insurance-crippling endorsement for what is in reality an administrative mistake. So long as they do not suspect a deliberate attempt to evade justice they will be willing to do the deal. I have only ever heard of (but did not see for myself) one instance of this deal being declined. As far as I can gather the defendant was less than civil to the prosecutor, who promptly showed him where being rude can get you.

 

9 hours ago, Smitch said:

The speed in question was 38 in a 30.

 

That speed should see a fine of half a week's net income, reduced by a third for your guilty plea (so a third of a week's income). You will also pay £85 towards prosecution costs and a "Victim Surcharge" of 10% of the fine (minimum £32). You will also receive three penalty points (so no worries about "totting up", but keep your right foot off the gas until the earliest of your points are no longer active!). If you're really cheeky you could mention this guidance that Magistrates have:

 

Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances

 

Of course the difficulty with that is that you caused the administrative difficulties by not changing your address and the Bench may think that it's a stretch too far!

 

Try not to get too bogged down with detail. This is a process that is undertaken up and down the land every day. Prosecutors know about it and so do Magistrates. The likelihood is that as soon as you mention that you want to do it you will be guided through the process. There is just one important thing to stick by - do not plead guilty to speeding until the deal has been agreed. Let us know if anything is still unclear and do let us know how you get on.

[Smitch]

Thank you for your Help MIM.

my apologies on constant messages.

 

The speed in question was 38 in a 30.

 

Just wondering what your thoughts are in regards to how I go about my statutory declaration in a couple of weeks.

Obviously I try and bargain beforehand with the prosecutor if i can.

 

Do i plead not guilty to both on the day ,I'm obviously making myself known (FTP) as explained earlier because of my v5 not being change address wise.

 

I definitely know I plead not guilty to FTP as I did not know.

 

Having not had this experience before it just started getting a little confusing. 

 

Hope you don't mind commenting 

 

Thank you 

 

[Man in the middle]

52 minutes ago, Smitch said:

my apologies on constant messages.

 

None needed. I'm familiar with this stuff. You're not and I understand your anxiety.

 

52 minutes ago, Smitch said:

The speed in question was 38 in a 30.

 

Dealt with (as far as the likely outcome) above.

 

52 minutes ago, Smitch said:

Just wondering what your thoughts are in regards to how I go about my statutory declaration in a couple of weeks.

 

You don't need to worry how to go about it. There is a form to complete. It will be provided by the court's Legal Advisor (who sits in front of the Magistrates and advises them on legal matters). She will help you complete it. It is simply a declaration that you knew nothing of the earlier proceedings which led to your conviction. You will then have to read that declaration before the Magistrates.

 

52 minutes ago, Smitch said:

Obviously I try and bargain beforehand with the prosecutor if i can.

 

Be handy if you can but don't get hung up on it. Bear in mind that the deal you are seeking to make with the prosecutor has nothing to do with your SD. The SD comes first (which sets aside your earlier conviction) then you worry about the fresh proceedings.

 

52 minutes ago, Smitch said:

Do i plead not guilty to both on the day ,

 

Yes. But you may find it does not come to that. If you manage to see the prosecutor beforehand, he or she may explain to the court what is happening.

 

52 minutes ago, Smitch said:

,I'm obviously making myself known (FTP) as explained earlier because of my v5 not being change address wise.

I definitely know I plead not guilty to FTP as I did not know.

 

Try not to get hung up on the FtP matter. It will, in all probability and if all goes well, simply be dropped when you do your deal. If it is not, maintain a NG plea and come back here to discuss it. Not knowing about the request for driver's details is not necessarily a satisfactory defence. But there's  lots of case law and legislation which makes it tricky to explain until you give the full details. So just don't worry about it at this stage (easy for m to say, I know) as you will not need to defend the matter on the day you do your SD, and in all probability not at all.

 

52 minutes ago, Smitch said:

Having not had this experience before it just started getting a little confusing. 

 

Indeed it must seem so. But you may be pleasantly surprised to see how straightforward it goes on the day. Ideally:

 

1. Statutory Declaration made.

2. Offer to plead guilty to speeding if (and only if) the FtP charge is dropped.

3. Plead Guilty to speeding.

4. Job Done!

5. Get your wallet out!

Edited February 6, 2020 by Man in the middle

[Smitch]

Hi ,good evening.

 

Well I made my statutory declaration today which obviously wipes the charges and points on my licence ,

I was all geared up with my notes and advice.

 

The speeding offence was never raised.

They only asked whether i was guilty or not guilty over the FTP.

 

To be honest this really got me worried ,

I asked the court about the speeding offence and a plea bargain.

 

They just asked whether or not I was guilty over the FTP.

 

I felt panicked over this scenario, kind of wish I'd got representation.

 

At the moment in time I pleaded not guilty...

.this was probably the wrong thing to do ,

but I felt I needed representation at this point.

 

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are.

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

On 04/02/2020 at 14:13, Man in the middle said:

Yes the quoted thread is a little complicated because it involves somebody allegedly falsifying documents, so let's keep it simple.

 

The Statutory Declaration (SD) sets aside the original conviction and nullifies any penalties made as a result.

It is then open to the prosecution to recommence the proceedings, Once you have made it you will almost certainly be asked to enter a plea.

 

What you need to negotiate is a deal where you agree to plead guilty to the original speeding offence but only provided the "Fail to Provide Driver's Details" (FtP) charge is dropped. As it stands you cannot be convicted of speeding as they have no evidence that you were driving, so do not under any circumstances plead guilty to it unless and until the agreement is in place. To do so is a potential route to convictions for both and nine (or more) points.

 

This bargain is a common arrangement which is well known to prosecutors and Magistrates and is undertaken every day across the country. Once you have it in place you can then simply plead guilty to speeding and will be sentenced.

 

If you can, arrive at court early and when you check in at reception ask to see the prosecutor who is working in the court to which your matter has been allocated. You can then put your proposal to him or her before the court sits. If you cannot do this, simply make your offer in court when you are asked to enter your plea.

 

In the highly unlikely event that your offer is not accepted, plead Not Guilty to the FtP charge (and speeding if it is put to you).

The FtP matter will then be listed for trial at a later date and you can decide between now and then whether you have a reasonable chance of success defending that matter. If you decide you have not then you can always change your plea before your trial date.

Do not be pressured into pleading guilty at this stage. Simply maintain that you want to take advice.

 

As an aside do you know the alleged speed and limit for the original speeding offence?

Magistrates have the option to award up to six points for speeding (largely depending on the speed alleged) and you may find yourself facing a "totting up" ban again. You would then have to think about an "Exceptional Hardship" argument.

 

already answered in post 5 in red above.

[Smitch]

Thank you for highlighting that ...just was consuming today .

 

Thank you