Article 50 Discussion

[Guest]

NATO is what keeps the peace

.

really! havent seen much peace around

(not saying that the EU wld do any better)

[WarrenBuffet]

"A brighter future" where they will never own their own home, have to work until they drop, etc, etc, etc.

 

A whole new generation of xenophobic Alf Garnett's

[Laura Thyme]

really! havent seen much peace around

(not saying that the EU wld do any better)

At least there's been peace in most of Europe, certainly within the EU. Those countries in Europe that saw war and conflict 25 years ago are now also at peace and in the EU.

[Guest]

At least there's been peace in most of Europe, certainly within the EU. Those countries in Europe that saw war and conflict 25 years ago are now also at peace and in the EU.

true, meant 'internationally'.

[Laura Thyme]

EU has nothing to do with peace ! NATO is what keeps the peace

Since WW2 not the EU ! In actual fact that's quite an irony that you want to be governed by an unelected and unaccountable elite in a foreign country ..... is that not what the great wars were to prevent ??

Not governed by them, just a member of the club so to speak. We are all members of this board but we are not governed by it. Hence my idea of negotiation as opposed to just leaving the room.

I voted out for the simple reason that I believe my children's and grandchildrens futures will be brighter without the EU.

I don't see that being the case, but then my crystal ball has always been hazy.

[Laura Thyme]

thats an issue i posted before (in the other thread), where the norwegian politician says better in to affect, rather than out and have to accept whatever if want to trade with.

recalling boris saying can be like the norwegians. well, they have free movement re their full trade agreement. and have to abide by the eu regs. but, they're not in it!

TBH, whenever the subject of the referendum came up, I always thought if there was a "leave" vote, it would be implemented along these lines. I can't see the advantages of a hard Brexit.

all depends on what it is negotiated. and, if favourable terms for the uk, then that wld set a precedent.

Yes, a precedent in favour of a "milder" and less federal EU, which is probably what would be best for most members. The EU has been growing too fast and it's also become too controlling. I'm not even sure the Euro was a good idea, since I've not lived in the Eurozone. An EU more like the original EEC could well be the answer.

then there is May saying that there will be a 'hard' exit, with not much parliamentary involvement. but, any required bill wld have to go through parliamentary process. (SI's prob being not enough for most of whats required)?

If you are referring to Statutory Instruments, I shouldn't think so. Leavers complain about being legislated by unelected politicians in Brussels, so why would we want to be legislated by government bodies churning out legislation without proper parliamentary debate?

[Laura Thyme]

true, meant 'internationally'.

Yes, I figured that's what you meant, hence my mention of peace within the EU. The Middle East is another kettle of fish. Even though several EU countries have got involved in those conflicts, they have been driven by the Americans rather than the EU. International conflicts well away from their territory make the US thrive.

[Laura Thyme]

My opinion, well as a long term investment, I would hold. But, if you are seeing a short term return? It might be worth taking it.

They are very low at the moment but they are also quoted in Euros which are high in relation to the pound.

[WarrenBuffet]

I reckon €10b is their estimated fine and they will be backed by Germany's Government. I also believe that they like BoS are too big to fail, and they should recover from their current position.

 

Warren Buffett the greatest investor has always said, buy when noone else wants and sell when everyone wants.

[determindator]

If Mr Cameron could have delivered the deals wanted by the UK Government in the time before the referendum, the people of the UK would have had more confidence as to our role and significance within the EU, and you probably wouldn't be having this debate now, and that was with a threat of leaving. Sounds like the member states are not interested in what we want. If the negotiations fell apart then, why would anything change now. There was always something fundamentally wrong or referendums wouldn't have been raised in the first place.

[Noah1]

Then we have another flawed argument here, because Brexit only refers to Britain leaving the EU, not the break up of the entire EU. If people live in poverty in another EU country, the departure of ONE of the 28 countries won't change much for the residents of the other 27.

 

And how would Brexit improve your quality of life in the UK vs what you experienced on the continent?

 

My quality of life would be the same because I'm not affected personally. In fact I can freely live anywhere in Europe or in the UK as I'm a permanent resident.

 

It seems to me that Brexit was also about generational clash because many elderly, middle age British voted out and many young British voted in. I even overheard discussion by elderly (obviously living their youths in 50s, 60s...) that they wish British empire will come back through Brexit.

 

Therefore this explains opinions of king12345 on which I found unsubstantiated. He came here in 80s and had a chance to establish himself. His hypocrisy is in voting against other Europeans doing exactly the same he's done with an explanation he wants better future for his kids. How about other people's kids? Yet even after vote, he wrote about holiday in Spain? Why don't Brexiters now plan their holiday in Syria, Ethiopia or Bangladesh??? Why they don't go to African village without running water, electricity, roads where 10 people live in the room? Why do you still want to contribute to overcrowding of European beaches? Brexiters still intent to milk Europe as long as they can, but they aggressively voted against EU citizens who contributed to building Europe to live in the UK>

 

This thread is titled very appropriately about ignorance and contradiction of some Brexiters being exposed.

[king12345]

My quality of life would be the same because I'm not affected personally. In fact I can freely live anywhere in Europe or in the UK as I'm a permanent resident.

 

It seems to me that Brexit was also about generational clash because many elderly, middle age British voted out and many young British voted in. I even overheard discussion by elderly (obviously living their youths in 50s, 60s...) that they wish British empire will come back through Brexit.

 

Therefore this explains opinions of king12345 on which I found unsubstantiated. He came here in 80s and had a chance to establish himself. His hypocrisy is in voting against other Europeans doing exactly the same he's done with an explanation he wants better future for his kids. How about other people's kids? Yet even after vote, he wrote about holiday in Spain? Why don't Brexiters now plan their holiday in Syria, Ethiopia or Bangladesh??? Why they don't go to African village without running water, electricity, roads where 10 people live in the room? Why do you still want to contribute to overcrowding of European beaches? Brexiters still intent to milk Europe as long as they can, but they aggressively voted against EU citizens who contributed to building Europe to live in the UK>

 

This thread is titled very appropriately about ignorance and contradiction of some Brexiters being exposed.

 

What are you talking about???

If Europeans want to come here under a visa point system they will be able to do so (if they introduce such system)

Equally all non europeans who have come here not illegally and have contributed to society are now respected citizens.

My point is against people coming and going at their will, work cash in hands, commit benefit fraud, piling up debts and then leaving us to foot the bill.

If we had control of our borders maybe we could reduce such problem.

There will always be illegal immigrants and that's a fact of life.

I think I have made it clear that i would have no problem applying for a visa to go to Europe, It's a small price I'm ready to pay.

Besides, instead of moaning about why I voted to leave, why don't you give us some good reasons why you voted to stay???

You're acting like the politicians of the remain campaign, no arguments but just slagging off the leavers

[Noah1]

What are you talking about???

If Europeans want to come here under a visa point system they will be able to do so (if they introduce such system)

Equally all non europeans who have come here not illegally and have contributed to society are now respected citizens.

My point is against people coming and going at their will, work cash in hands, commit benefit fraud, piling up debts and then leaving us to foot the bill.

If we had control of our borders maybe we could reduce such problem.

There will always be illegal immigrants and that's a fact of life.

I think I have made it clear that i would have no problem applying for a visa to go to Europe, It's a small price I'm ready to pay.

Besides, instead of moaning about why I voted to leave, why don't you give us some good reasons why you voted to stay???

You're acting like the politicians of the remain campaign, no arguments but just slagging off the leavers

 

 

Please read my previous post saying that I'm a Brexiter, in fact a hard one. I'm convinced your children will have more difficult situation due to Brexit vote and will have to deal with many unforeseen or foreseen and ignored issues (see value of Pound). I can detect an angry reaction but once again ( I pointed this out in my previous post) you mixing non EU immigration and EU migrants. You seem to have a big problem with illegal immigrants, but you aimed your anger at EU citizens who are here not illegal! None of the EU CITIZENS CAME TO THE UK ILLEGALLY, THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

I had neighbors, Africans and Asians committing benefit fraud and piling up debts.

 

By the way word moaning is below me, I don't do it in life. Your reaction tells me that I've made a point and am not very interested in replying to you further because you made number of unsubstantiated claims which are just your opinions or wishful thinking.

 

UK is now not welcomed in the EU, EU president asked Nick Farage: 'Why are you still here?' Simply because the UK doesn't wish to give up privileges. Please Europeans now want the UK to leave ASAP.

[WarrenBuffet]

Hold on Noah, although im in the stay camp I would like to distinguish between Farage not being welcome and the UK. UK is trying to negotiate a "Soft landing" Farage on the other hand is a nonsense as his party is now redundant!

[Noah1]

Farage and his party is becoming more and more popular in the UK and UKIP has increasing number of followers. He's laughed at in the UK Parliament by anybody with a common sense, but the British still voted and allowed him to represent the UK abroad. If you sent politician like him abroad, what do you expect?

[WarrenBuffet]

They have no policies, no mandate, their reason for being has been achieved and now they are redundant.

[Noah1]

It looks like it's your wishful thinking and you don't want to see facts that people believe UKIP and it has increasing number of followers.

[king12345]

Please read my previous post saying that I'm a Brexiter, in fact a hard one. I'm convinced your children will have more difficult situation due to Brexit vote and will have to deal with many unforeseen or foreseen and ignored issues (see value of Pound). I can detect an angry reaction but once again ( I pointed this out in my previous post) you mixing non EU immigration and EU migrants. You seem to have a big problem with illegal immigrants, but you aimed your anger at EU citizens who are here not illegal! None of the EU CITIZENS CAME TO THE UK ILLEGALLY, THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

I had neighbors, Africans and Asians committing benefit fraud and piling up debts.

 

By the way word moaning is below me, I don't do it in life. Your reaction tells me that I've made a point and am not very interested in replying to you further because you made number of unsubstantiated claims which are just your opinions or wishful thinking.

 

UK is now not welcomed in the EU, EU president asked Nick Farage: 'Why are you still here?' Simply because the UK doesn't wish to give up privileges. Please Europeans now want the UK to leave ASAP.

 

You're not making any sense.

You say that brexit voters are ignorant but you're one of them.

You're sure that your children will have hard time, so why did you vote to leave???

I have in fact a very bad problem with illegal immigrants, note, not genuine asylum seekers but immigrants who deliberately decide that our laws are not good enough and instead of applying for a visa they come here illegally.

I haven't got a problem with EU immigrants who come here, work, contribute to society and behave, but I have a big problem with EU immigrants who come along for the benefits only, the criminals who pass the borders unchecked and then commit crimes here, the fraudsters who take out as many loans and credit cards, borrow money from people, don't pay rent and all bills and then move to another address to start all over again.

And don't get me started on the ones who send one member of their family here so they can get benefits in their country: I know a few of them and to me they are the **** of the earth.

I don't know about you, but a large chunk of my wages goes in tax, why should I support a centralised EU government dictating how our government should waste my money???

Then if you're deliberately taking benefits despite being able to work i can only wish you the best of luck and understand perfectly your fine point.

[Noah1]

You're not making any sense.

You say that brexit voters are ignorant but you're one of them.

You're sure that your children will have hard time, so why did you vote to leave???

I have in fact a very bad problem with illegal immigrants, note, not genuine asylum seekers but immigrants who deliberately decide that our laws are not good enough and instead of applying for a visa they come here illegally.

I haven't got a problem with EU immigrants who come here, work, contribute to society and behave, but I have a big problem with EU immigrants who come along for the benefits only, the criminals who pass the borders unchecked and then commit crimes here, the fraudsters who take out as many loans and credit cards, borrow money from people, don't pay rent and all bills and then move to another address to start all over again.

And don't get me started on the ones who send one member of their family here so they can get benefits in their country: I know a few of them and to me they are the **** of the earth.

I don't know about you, but a large chunk of my wages goes in tax, why should I support a centralised EU government dictating how our government should waste my money???

Then if you're deliberately taking benefits despite being able to work i can only wish you the best of luck and understand perfectly your fine point.

 

You have made number of false assumptions as I never said I voted. I left it for people like you to decide. Also I am not taking any benefits, I was referring to neighbours.

[king12345]

You have made number of false assumptions as I never said I voted. I left it for people like you to decide. Also I am not taking any benefits, I was referring to neighbours.

 

Ok, now everything is perfectly clear: you're part of the elite of people who cannot be bothered to vote but then exercises the right to criticise the results of the vote and insult all the stupid citizens who bothered to vote.

Nice one, I have the greatest respect for your choices now and possibly I share the same feeling with many others here and out there.

Well done!

[unclebulgaria67]

Whether you are for or against Brexit, the UK is going to face a very difficult period. Businesses like Unilever who produce a huge number of Supermarket brands want to increase their prices to reflect increased costs due to Pound Sterlings devaluation. Tesco for marketing reasons have not accepted the price increases, as they want to be seen as standing up for consumers. Tesco the same as any other retailer will know that prices of goods will change depending on many things including currenct values. If Tesco wants to maintain prices in their stores, they have the option of reducing their margins.

 

There have also been warnings of increased bankruptcies due to the uncertainty caused by Brexit. You can see some businesses deciding to close UK sites and to shift them elsewhere, as they will see that they can reduce their costs by using cheaper labour rates in mainland Europe. Countries like Spain with a large number of people eager for work, will offer businessss the opportunity to move there and the EU will help facilitate this, as it means less EU financial assistance to Spain.

 

http://uk.businessinsider.com/pinsent-masons-brexit-will-lead-to-business-failures-2016-10

 

There is no indication that Theresa May is in any hurry and Parliament has a majority of MP's against Brexit. Government and Parliament will be under massive pressure from business about Brexit issues, with any problems in the financial markets such as currency fluctuations creating real tension between interested parties. If it looks like Brexit would cause long term damage to the UK economy, there will be pressure on the Government to stop Brexit and to offer the public another chance to think about tne future of the UK.

 

Don't read the right wing newspapers current stories on Brexit, as they are currently trying to justify why they backed Brexit. Most of these newspapers are owned by people who don't live in the UK and will be financially well off whatever happens.

[Noah1]

Ok, now everything is perfectly clear: you're part of the elite of people who cannot be bothered to vote but then exercises the right to criticise the results of the vote and insult all the stupid citizens who bothered to vote.

Nice one, I have the greatest respect for your choices now and possibly I share the same feeling with many others here and out there.

Well done!

 

I take it as a compliment and I don't mind you put me in a box titled 'elite'!

 

It's not illegal to not exercise my right to vote or other rights. I didn't participate in general nor local elections. My reason is that I will be fine with both options, but I believe that others will face many obstacles with Brexit vote in the future. This however doesn't mean that I don't have valid points to make or should stay just silent as you implicated in your post.

 

Can somebody help to explain to king12345 the difference between illeagal immigrants, assylym seakers (having nothing to do with the EU) and EU citizens who are in the UK legally? I've attempted on more occassions but it seems to me this basic difference is not clear to some Brexiters.

 

It's very sad and unfair to vote for Brexit because of illegal immigration because illegal immigrants have nothing to do with EU citizens. It's like operate heart when you have problems with your stomach, no wonder patient is going to die!

Edited October 13, 2016 by honeybee13
Paras.

[unclebulgaria67]

I am 65/35 convinced that Brexit will not happen and that Theresa May is just waiting for circumstances to come about, where she can justify putting a stop to the Brexit process. Of course no PM can avoid upholding a democratic vote unless there are exceptional circumstances and they believe that there is a majority of people in favour of a new referendum, because the country has changed its mind.

 

I believe exceptional circumstances will arise within the next 2 years and that Theresa May will gain approval from her cabinet to hold a new referendum, where she will be able to point to evidence that shows that on balance the UK benefits from membership of the EU. A second referendum would be far more informed with people having much more of an idea on facts for and against EU membership.

[WarrenBuffet]

I hope you (Your Crystal Ball) are correct UncleB.

[Noah1]

I am 65/35 convinced that Brexit will not happen and that Theresa May is just waiting for circumstances to come about, where she can justify putting a stop to the Brexit process. Of course no PM can avoid upholding a democratic vote unless there are exceptional circumstances and they believe that there is a majority of people in favour of a new referendum, because the country has changed its mind.

 

I believe exceptional circumstances will arise within the next 2 years and that Theresa May will gain approval from her cabinet to hold a new referendum, where she will be able to point to evidence that shows that on balance the UK benefits from membership of the EU. A second referendum would be far more informed with people having much more of an idea on facts for and against EU membership.

 

I am convinced that beliefs are important because they keep our dreams alive! Having experienced 'Shocking ignorance amongst Brexit voters', I wouldn't rely on common sense and facts in this divorce battle. Historically speaking, the British always wanted to do 'their own' thing and were happy only when they lead (Establishment of Anglican church by Henry VIII, British Empire, etc.) Brexit is already happening and you probably forgot that EUROPEANS WANT THE UK TO LEAVE, SO THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT WHAT BRITAIN WANTS. No free movement, no single market. Brexit is Brexit, literally.