Article 50 Discussion

[Consumer dude]

Every one has views and most are just opinions being presented as facts, I agree the whole EU debate is going round in circles..

[Noah1]

hi, thank to laura for reply.

 

i wasn't upset, but quoted your reply again because i totally agree with you.

 

regarding my 'a tongue in cheek comment',

well my point was that i do find arrogant statements that europeans take british jobs, put pressure on the nhs, etc.

 

out of my experience, Europeans fill gaps, take jobs which British people are not interested in such as low paid jobs or jobs where one actually needs to work hard (construction sites, hotels, cafes).

 

my coffee in Starbucks is always served by a foreigner, no British person works there.

i asked them why and they laughed saying that even they recruited some in the past, they didn't last long, complained about low wages, found work way to hard for them and shifts long.

 

so i don't know which planet other people live on, but this is reality of many uk employers, starbucks, caffe nero, costa, eat, pret$manger, etc. many services would close if not foreigners. therefore i'm a brexiter, in fact a hard one.

 

British want to leave eu, they wish must be respected and they were actually told in European parliament to do it quickly.

hypocrisy is that theresa may wants to still benefit from eu union as long as she can.

 

but please note, europe doesn't want Britain to stay and in fact politicians made clear on several occasions that Britain shouldn't hang on still to eu. the reality is Britain is now unwanted in the eu.

 

one of the reason is that some of the British think Europeans are idiots and will allow single marked while you expel Europeans out of the uk.

 

i totally agree, all those low paid jobs should be left for the British, because i know people with university degrees doing these jobs.

i wouldn't dare and want to take such jobs from British people.

 

we Europeans have in fact better education and experience so we certainly will do according to British visa plans professional jobs.

 

i totally agree it is fair for everybody. in regards to friendliness in brexit debate,

i don't really know what you're talking about.

 

debates in the newspapers and television are aggressive and aim against Europeans. as a consequence there has been a surge of hatred against eu citizens, shockingly even from immigrants from Africa, Asia or refugees (claiming britain should rather take more people from other parts of the world).

 

on the contrary, Italy, France, Germany, Austria, Spain, Portugal's, etc. are full of British holiday makers.

British even choose to spend retirement busking on eu sun by buying villas in those eu countries.

 

i wonder why, if you really wish your country back, you don't spent your holidays on your chilly sea shore.

i don't mind following the visa procedures at all, unlike the thousands non eu citizens roaming our streets who entered illegally using fake eu id cards easily forged.

 

therefore i'm a brexiter, in fact a hard one.

Edited October 11, 2016 by dx100uk
post converted to lowercase and paragraphs added - dx

[Laura Thyme]

I can't see the point in a continuing debate about Brexit, as this is going to go on for years. I don't believe Brexit will happen by Summer 2019. The only reason the government says this, is that the next election is due in May 2020.

 

If you continue the debate it will just go round in circles and get too heated.

The purpose of this thread wasn't to debate Brexit as such, it refers to the attitudes of some Brexiters. Even more significant than the xenophobia shown was the fact that many Brexiters seem to have voted for the wrong thing! Given the serious consequences of Brexit for the country, it looks like a bunch of kids thought they were sacrificing their allowances to get their hands on some brightly coloured candy when, in reality, what they are getting is a bunch of brightly coloured pebbles!

[Noah1]

I'M A BREXITER with I believe realistic view and experiences from both camps-EU and UK. The reality is that BREXIT will protect EU heritage and resources from Europe will will used within EU, not like now. There are thousands of British people paid by the EU funds and after Brexit, salary will go to EU citizens. I applaud Laura for starting this post because it's relevant and provides many times overlooked facts. Democracy was first time used in Greece, the root of the word is Greek and it means the rule of people. Maybe British should choose their own word if they don't like EU heritage, etc. and want to be so independent.

[Laura Thyme]

Hi, Thank to Laura for reply. I wasn't upset, but quoted your reply again because I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. REGARDING MY 'a tongue in cheek comment', WELL MY POINT WAS THAT I DO FIND ARROGANT STATEMENTS THAT EUROPEANS TAKE BRITISH JOBS,

Hi, I'm glad you agree with me. I have to ask though, are you aware that typing in ALL CAPS not only makes the text much harder to read, it also means you are shouting? For that reason, CAPS should be used to emphasise the odd word rather than to type whole paragraphs.

HYPOCRICY IS THAT THERESA MAY WANTS TO STILL BENEFIT FROM EU UNION AS LONG AS SHE CAN. BUT PLEASE NOTE, EUROPE DOESN'T WANT BRITAIN TO STAY AND IN FACT POLITICIANS MADE CLEAR ON SEVERAL OCCASSIONS THAT BRITAIN SHOULDN'T HANG ON STILL TO EU. THE REALITY IS BRITAIN IS NOW UNWANTED IN THE EU. ONE OF THE REASON IS THAT SOME OF THE BRITISH THINK EUROPEANS ARE IDIOTS AND WILL ALLOW SINGLE MARKED WHILE YOU EXPELL EUROPEANS OUT OF THE UK.

A case of having your cake, eating it and also getting paid for the privilege! Now you can see what my argument against Brexiters is, each one of them voted for their very own Brexit, whatever they thought it would/should mean.

I TOTALLY AGREE, ALL THOSE LOW PAID JOBS SHOULD BE LEFT FOR THE BRITISH, BECAUSE I KNOW PEOPLE WITH UNIVERSITY DEGREES DOING THESE JOBS. I WOULDN'T DARE AND WANT TO TAKE SUCH JOBS FROM BRITISH PEOPLE.

Nationality shouldn't be an issue when it comes to jobs. People without the required education/skills/experience to do something better should take those jobs, regardless of nationality. People with better skills/qualifications or experience in other areas shouldn't have to do them.

WE EUROPEANS HAVE IN FACT BETTER EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE SO WE CERTAINLY WILL DO ACCORDING TO BRITISH VISA PLANS PROFESSIONAL JOBS. I TOTALLY AGREE IT IS FAIR FOR EVERYBODY.

So you are a EU citizen and also a hard Brexiter? A bit of an unusual combo.

 

IN REGARDS TO FRIENDLINESS IN BREXIT DEBATE, I DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. DEBATES IN THE NEWSPAPERS AND TELEVISION ARE AGRESSIVE AND AIM AGAINST EUROPEANS.

I never said that debates should exhibit "friendliness". Debates should NOT aim against Europeans, the whole purpose of debates is to, well, DEBATE the issues, not take aim at one group.

 

I WONDER WHY, IF YOU REALLY WISH YOUR COUNTRY BACK, YOU DON'T SPENT YOUR HOLIDAYS ON YOUR CHILLY SEA SHORE. I don't mind following the visa procedures at all, unlike the thousands non EU citizens roaming our streets who entered illegally using fake EU id cards easily forged. THEREFORE I'M A BREXITER, IN FACT A HARD ONE.

I agree, there's a lot of double standards, however, Brexit wouldn't stop Brits going abroad on holiday as you can also go on holiday to most non EU countries and those with more re$ource$ often head for the Caribbean, Mexico, Thailand, Indonesia, Goa, etc. It will affect those who would like to live and work in other EU countries or retire in the sun, as opposed to holidaymakers.

[Noah1]

I'M A BREXITER because I respect wish of the British people. I'm convinced that in a long term British economy and ordinary people will suffer (see value of Pound), but this is what Britain wants. On British soil, do as British want. CAPS should be used to emphasise the odd word rather than to type whole paragraphs.

[Noah1]

'It's like a terminally ill person offered the chance of drinking an unknown medicine, nothing to lose if you're gonna die anyway. And staying in the EU means certain collapse.' I found the above comparison between Britain in the EU with terminally ill, simply ill....

[Laura Thyme]

I'M A BREXITER because I respect wish of the British people. I'm convinced that in a long term British economy and ordinary people will suffer (see value of Pound), but this is what Britain wants.

I don't think that was what Britain wanted when they voted leave, herein lies the rub. Who, in their right mind, would want the economy and ordinary people to suffer? Note I said "in their right mind", that obviously excludes most Tories.

 

On British soil, do as British want.

Actually, nearly half didn't want that. It wasn't an overwhelming majority and, as you can see, each Brexit voter had their own version of Brexit in mind. Some saw it as a panacea that would fix all the country's ailments: there would be no more illegal immigrants (even though EU citz are legal), no more refuges, no more foreigners taking British jobs or claiming benefits, etc. That would mean an end to the so-called housing shortage and overstretched services, including the NHS, which would also get all the money not doled out to the EU.

 

What nobody thought about is the consequences of that so-called "ideal scenario". Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that all EU citizens as well as most refugees and all illegal immigrants were actually deported. How many would that be? Probably over four million! Any idea what the sudden departure of four million people would do to the economy? All those flats and houses suddenly empty (if you are a BTL landlord with a mortgage, you could lose your property), all those jobs suddenly vacant, all those consumers out of the economy. Everyone buys goods and services here, and that includes even benefit claimants. I'm sure the taxes paid by those included in the four million who work or run a business heavily outweigh any benefits claimed by the unemployed minority amongst them.

 

Did anyone think about all that? Of course not, they were to busy chanting: "We want our country back", "We are not slaves of Brussels", "We want to be independent". Nobody took the country away, laws are made in Westminster not Brussels and the EU is not a nation, therefore the UK, like the rest of EU countries, is an independent country even within the EU. But it's good to rant and chant... more fun than sitting down doing spreadsheets, that's for sure.

 

CAPS should be used to emphasise the odd word rather than to type whole paragraphs.

I see you edited your post.

[Laura Thyme]

'It's like a terminally ill person offered the chance of drinking an unknown medicine, nothing to lose if you're gonna die anyway. And staying in the EU means certain collapse.' I found the above comparison between Britain in the EU with terminally ill, simply ill....

If you think Britain is terminally ill, then you've not read about Greece... Unemployment in the UK is on the low side.

[Noah1]

It's like a terminally ill person offered the chance of drinking an unknown medicine, nothing to lose if you're gonna die anyway. And staying in the EU means certain collapse.' QU0TED FROM KING12345 POST, CERTAINLY NOT MINE VIEW I found the above comparison between Britain in the EU with terminally ill, simply ill.... It seems to me that EU referendum was and is used as s scapegoat because promblems with immigration had to blamed on somebody. Statistics say that there are more immigrants from Asia, Africa claiming benefits and committing crime, being in gangs.

[king12345]

I'm also a EU national and brexitier.

Not an unusual combo.

In fact, 90% of the EU nationals who voted, are in favour of brexit because their families live in poverty in their own country because of the EU.

Fact.

My mum was a successful business woman, now on minimum pension and paying 90% of her rental income in tax because the country owes money to EU.

[Noah1]

I think it should be activated sooner rather then later to avoid uncertainty

[Noah1]

I'm also a EU national and brexitier.

Not an unusual combo.

In fact, 90% of the EU nationals who voted, are in favour of brexit because their families live in poverty in their own country because of the EU.

Fact.

Where do you have this number from? (wishful thinking?) I had better quality of life in the continent in terms of housing, education, NHS so my reasons are very different.

[Laura Thyme]

It's like a terminally ill person offered the chance of drinking an unknown medicine, nothing to lose if you're gonna die anyway. And staying in the EU means certain collapse.' QU0TED FROM KING12345 POST, CERTAINLY NOT MINE VIEW

You may want to click "Reply with Quote" to get the text you quoted against the poster's name so we all know who actually posted something.

 

I found the above comparison between Britain in the EU with terminally ill, simply ill.... It seems to me that EU referendum was and is used as s scapegoat because promblems with immigration had to blamed on somebody. Statistics say that there are more immigrants from Asia, Africa claiming benefits and committing crime, being in gangs.

I've not seen those stats but there are large parts of the UK with high non EU populations, for better or for worse, that is the case and Brexit won't change a thing about that. The only thing is, if non EU citizens are granted permanent residence after five years' lawful residence, it's just unthinkable to have that right revoked from EU citizens as many of the commentators on that article suggested.

[Laura Thyme]

I'm also a EU national and brexitier.

Not an unusual combo.

In fact, 90% of the EU nationals who voted, are in favour of brexit because their families live in poverty in their own country because of the EU.

Fact.

Then we have another flawed argument here, because Brexit only refers to Britain leaving the EU, not the break up of the entire EU. If people live in poverty in another EU country, the departure of ONE of the 28 countries won't change much for the residents of the other 27.

Where do you have this number from? (wishful thinking?) I had better quality of life in the continent in terms of housing, education, NHS so my reasons are very different.

And how would Brexit improve your quality of life in the UK vs what you experienced on the continent?

[WarrenBuffet]

On a positive note, if I was in the Euro I would be loading up on Sterling as the last time we had parity between €/£ was the property/banks collapse in 2007-8. I reckon a very short term 20% return on investment is achievable.

[Laura Thyme]

On a positive note, if I was in the Euro I would be loading up on Sterling as the last time we had parity between €/£ was the property/banks collapse in 2007-8. I reckon a very short term 20% return on investment is achievable.

A slightly different slant on this, if you had Deutsche Bank shares, would you sell them now?

[WarrenBuffet]

My opinion, well as a long term investment, I would hold. But, if you are seeing a short term return? It might be worth taking it.

[king12345]

Then we have another flawed argument here, because Brexit only refers to Britain leaving the EU, not the break up of the entire EU. If people live in poverty in another EU country, the departure of ONE of the 28 countries won't change much for the residents of the other 27.

Once we pull out other states might follow, disintegrating the EU.

A lot will change when the other 27 states don't get UK money anymore.

We pay a large chunk of money to keep EU afloat.

[WarrenBuffet]

We also received huge subsidies.

[Laura Thyme]

Once we pull out other states might follow, disintegrating the EU.

That's debatable, and is that what we really want for Europe? As opposed to, perhaps, a more moderate, less federalist EU, more akin to the original EEC. IMHO negotiating a better deal is a much sounder alternative for any country, as opposed to just pulling out.

A lot will change when the other 27 states don't get UK money anymore.

We pay a large chunk of money to keep EU afloat.

That's a bit pretentious, and the EU has also funded projects in the UK. I've seen signs saying something or other was built with EU funding. It's a game of give and take and there's more to the EU than money. Peace is even more important. The new generations are not so aware of the history of it all but my dad fought in WWII.

[2ltr16valve]

That's debatable, and is that what we really want for Europe? As opposed to, perhaps, a more moderate, less federalist EU, more akin to the original EEC. IMHO negotiating a better deal is a much sounder alternative for any country, as opposed to just pulling out.

That's a bit pretentious, and the EU has also funded projects in the UK. I've seen signs saying something or other was built with EU funding. It's a game of give and take and there's more to the EU than money. Peace is even more important. The new generations are not so aware of the history of it all but my dad fought in WWII.

 

EU has nothing to do with peace ! NATO is what keeps the peace

Since WW2 not the EU ! In actual fact that's quite an irony that you want to be governed by an unelected and unaccountable elite in a foreign country ..... is that not what the great wars were to prevent ??

 

I voted out for the simple reason that I believe my children's and grandchildrens futures will be brighter without the EU.

[Guest]

. IMHO negotiating a better deal is a much sounder alternative for any country, as opposed to just pulling out.

.

thats an issue i posted before (in the other thread), where the norwegian politician says better in to affect, rather than out and have to accept whatever if want to trade with.

recalling boris saying can be like the norwegians. well, they have free movement re their full trade agreement. and have to abide by the eu regs. but, they're not in it!

all depends on what it is negotiated. and, if favourable terms for the uk, then that wld set a precedent.

 

then there is May saying that there will be a 'hard' exit, with not much parliamentary involvement. but, any required bill wld have to go through parliamentary process. (SI's prob being not enough for most of whats required)?

[king12345]

That's debatable, and is that what we really want for Europe? As opposed to, perhaps, a more moderate, less federalist EU, more akin to the original EEC. IMHO negotiating a better deal is a much sounder alternative for any country, as opposed to just pulling out.

That's a bit pretentious, and the EU has also funded projects in the UK. I've seen signs saying something or other was built with EU funding. It's a game of give and take and there's more to the EU than money. Peace is even more important. The new generations are not so aware of the history of it all but my dad fought in WWII.

 

Net expenditure to UK is £65M per day!

That's a whole pound for everyone including children and pensioners.

EEC worked great and I fully supported it.

EU is something else.

Now that you mentioned WW2 here I say it: A crazy many wanted to conquer Europe and rule all its states.

What was not achieved with weapons has now been achieved with pen and paper.

That's why they're peed off that we're leaving.

[king12345]

EU has nothing to do with peace ! NATO is what keeps the peace

Since WW2 not the EU ! In actual fact that's quite an irony that you want to be governed by an unelected and unaccountable elite in a foreign country ..... is that not what the great wars were to prevent ??

 

I voted out for the simple reason that I believe my children's and grandchildrens futures will be brighter without the EU.

 

Well said