First Great Western - Pre Court Settlement Offer - help needed

[los247]

A few weeks ago I boarded a train from Malvern Link to Worcester Foregate Street without first buying a ticket. There were long queues at the ticket office and automated machine, so I stupidly just got on the train and asked the conductor to buy one then. He was having none of it, took my details and warned me I'd get a letter in the post.

 

 

That letter has now arrived from First Great Western, saying they are offering me the chance to settle the matter out of court by paying £85.20. If I don't pay, I could be issued with a court summons. I know I was in the wrong, I know I should've bought a ticket first, but the amount seems disproportionate - the fare was £5.20. Can anyone advise what I should do? Will they actually take me to court? Also, why wasn't it a penalty fare of £20? As far as I can tell, looking on the National Rail website, it should've been.

 

 

Thanks in advance for any help/advice!

[renegadeimp]

If you dont pay then yes they will take you to court and yes, they will win and youll end up paying more. Its a strict liability offence iirc. You should buy a ticket before boarding the train.

[BazzaS]

A few weeks ago I boarded a train from Malvern Link to Worcester Foregate Street without first buying a ticket. There were long queues at the ticket office and automated machine, so I stupidly just got on the train and asked the conductor to buy one then. He was having none of it, took my details and warned me I'd get a letter in the post.

 

 

That letter has now arrived from First Great Western, saying they are offering me the chance to settle the matter out of court by paying £85.20. If I don't pay, I could be issued with a court summons. I know I was in the wrong, I know I should've bought a ticket first, but the amount seems disproportionate - the fare was £5.20. Can anyone advise what I should do? Will they actually take me to court? Also, why wasn't it a penalty fare of £20? As far as I can tell, looking on the National Rail website, it should've been.

 

 

Thanks in advance for any help/advice!

 

 

The member of staff on the train isn't obliged to offer a penalty fare. For whatever reason they have decided to make the report to the TOC's prosecution office.

 

If you can show that you went to the member of staff on the train to pay (rather than waiting for them to come to you), they would have a job proving that you intended to avoid your fare (an offence under s5(3) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889), but they don't have to ..... all they have to do to get a successful prosecution is show that you were asked to produce a valid ticket, and didn't (Byelaw 18 of the National Railway Byelaws)

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

 

So, does their letter state under what legislation they might prosecute?. If it is Byelaw 18, you might want to settle....

 

Why did the member of staff decide to make a report?. We don't know, and you note "He was having none of it". Bear in mind that if was a difficult interaction, this might be reflected in the report they made, so as for "Will they actually take me to court?"..... they might.

 

The prosecutions office will only have that report (and any reply you make) to go on, and blaming the on-train staff is rarely perceived well by the TOC.

[los247]

The member of staff on the train isn't obliged to offer a penalty fare. For whatever reason they have decided to make the report to the TOC's prosecution office.

 

If you can show that you went to the member of staff on the train to pay (rather than waiting for them to come to you), they would have a job proving that you intended to avoid your fare (an offence under s5(3) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889), but they don't have to ..... all they have to do to get a successful prosecution is show that you were asked to produce a valid ticket, and didn't (Byelaw 18 of the National Railway Byelaws)

 

 

So, does their letter state under what legislation they might prosecute?. If it is Byelaw 18, you might want to settle....

 

Why did the member of staff decide to make a report?. We don't know, and you note "He was having none of it". Bear in mind that if was a difficult interaction, this might be reflected in the report they made, so as for "Will they actually take me to court?"..... they might.

 

The prosecutions office will only have that report (and any reply you make) to go on, and blaming the on-train staff is rarely perceived well by the TOC.

 

 

Thanks for your reply. It doesn't specifically state which Byelaw. It says 'this incident may constitute an offence in law, either being in breach of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 and/or the Railway Byelaws'. It goes on to say that if I'm found guilty under the Railway Byelaws, I may have to pay a fine of up to £1000. If I'm found guilty under the Regulation of Railways Act, I may have to pay the fine of up to £1000 and/or go to prison.

 

 

I did approach the conductor as soon as I was on the train. I said I was sorry, I hadn't had time to buy a ticket before I got on, and asked if I could buy it now. He refused, said this was an offence and proceeded to take my details etc. I don't know how I would prove that I approached him and tried to pay...and like you said, it might not even make a difference. It's just stressful because I'm a student and £85.20 is an awful lot of money to me (I know it was my mistake in the first place). I'm also nervous that if I appeal they will just up the fine even more. It says if I haven't paid by 18/08, it'll go up to £160.00....

[renegadeimp]

What else did you say to the conductor, as your wording can lead to people thinking there was an argument. Also, many trains, if not all, have cameras installed too.

[los247]

What else did you say to the conductor, as your wording can lead to people thinking there was an argument. Also, many trains, if not all, have cameras installed too.

 

 

Hi, sorry - I think my choice of words was probably a bit misleading. When I say he was having none of it, I simply mean he refused to let me buy a ticket off him. There wasn't an argument or anything, because I was genuinely too scared try and push the matter and thought it would make things worse. All I said was my name and address when he asked.

[BazzaS]

It goes on to say that if I'm found guilty under the Railway Byelaws, I may have to pay a fine of up to £1000. If I'm found guilty under the Regulation of Railways Act, I may have to pay the fine of up to £1000 and/or go to prison.

 

This is technically correct, but not the whole story ......

It is a level 3 fine (which is currently set as a maximum of £1000), but a £1000 fine would be for someone earning £1000/week or more, who was found guilty (after pleading "not guilty").

 

It is also technically true that a s.5(3) RORA 1889 conviction can lead to a prison sentence (of up to 3 months), but they have neglected to mention that that is only for a second or subsequent offence .....

 

See http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?466555-arriva-trains-wales-.lied-about-boarding-station-with-no-ticket-.-Advice-needed&p=4930253#post4930253 for how a fine (if it did go to court!) is calculated, but bear in mind if it did go to court the TOC

a) is pretty much guaranteed a successful Byelaw 18 prosecution from what you have described, (absent one of the specific defences, none of which you have mentioned might apply)

b) can apply for their costs, and compensation (the £5.20 fare), so it might cost you way in excess of £85.20 ......

[los247]

This is technically correct, but not the whole story ......

It is a level 3 fine (which is currently set as a maximum of £1000), but a £1000 fine would be for someone earning £1000/week or more, who was found guilty (after pleading "not guilty").

 

It is also technically true that a s.5(3) RORA 1889 conviction can lead to a prison sentence (of up to 3 months), but they have neglected to mention that that is only for a second or subsequent offence .....

 

See for how a fine (if it did go to court!) is calculated, but bear in mind if it did go to court the TOC

a) is pretty much guaranteed a successful Byelaw 18 prosecution from what you have described, (absent one of the specific defences, none of which you have mentioned might apply)

b) can apply for their costs, and compensation (the £5.20 fare), so it might cost you way in excess of £85.20 ......

 

 

Hmm thanks for clarifying all that - so do you think they would take me to court if I didn't pay the £85.20?

[honeybee13]

Hmm thanks for clarifying all that - so do you think they would take me to court if I didn't pay the £85.20?

 

Yes I do, sorry. There are laws and byelaws that go back years, backing the rail companies. Have a read around the forum for FGW threads.

 

HB

[BazzaS]

Hmm thanks for clarifying all that - so do you think they would take me to court if I didn't pay the £85.20?

 

If they have offered it as an alternative to court and you declined : put yourself in their shoes - why wouldn't they?

 

So, yes, unless you can give them a persuasive reason not to (and I'm not including "I should have been given a penalty fare" as persuasive ....), if you don't pay the administrative settlement and don't give them a good reason not to prosecute : yes, they will likely prosecute.

[los247]

Thanks everyone - that's kind of what I thought. I guess I will put it down to experience