Surveillance bill includes internet records storage

[antone]

Only those who have something to hide would oppose this!

This Fletch 70? seems to me to have a very bitter an warped view of just about

every thing.

 

Wait, what? You're accusing Fletch of being some sort of terrorist simply because he(?) values his privacy, and yet he's the one who has a bitter and warped view of things?

[fletch70]

Anyone who takes the time to look at politics and politicians will become cynical

 

The old chestnut, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear is ridiculous and dangerous, if you take the time to examine it you will see why , just type it into google and see reasons

 

Some examples

http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/the-data-trust-blog/2009/02/debunking-a-myth-if-you-have-n.html

 

 

Try typing nothing to hide nothing to fear into google or even better google scholar

 

Yes I want to protect my privacy, am I wrong to want that?

Edited November 15, 2015 by Andyorch
edited

[Conniff]

Anyone who takes the time to look at politics and politicians will become cynical

 

The old chestnut, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear is ridiculous and dangerous, if you take the time to examine it you will see why , just type it into google and see reasons

 

Some examples

http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/the-data-trust-blog/2009/02/debunking-a-myth-if-you-have-n.html

 

 

Try typing nothing to hide nothing to fear into google or even better google scholar

 

Yes I want to protect my privacy, am I wrong to want that?

 

 

All written by someone like yourself with left wing views

I could write the same articles and put a completely different slant on it. I could write it in a way that would be believable and make people que ups to be spied on.

Thing like that are just political garbage.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Andyorch
edited

[antone]

I'm baffled: the idea that the power of the state should be limited is now "left wing"? Historically, it's been those on the right, or at least classical liberals, who argued for limits to state authority. We've reached a sorry state when the righties are arguing for statism and the lefties are preaching restrictions of government power.

[fletch70]

Quite right Antone. The neo liberals or new right argue to limit the role of the state.

Conniff of course there will be a political slant on many articles just as academic writing comes from different perspectives but telling me that the holocaust was political garbage is a step too far.

You all know, or would if you read my posts I am an out gay man. I have nothing to hide about that but life would not be so good if I lived in the Bible belt of America or Jamaica or Russia. I would be dead if I lived in Iran so tell me that I have nothing to worry about by the rise of the far right. I can hardly go back in the closet now can i

[antone]

Fletch, I did not know that you were an out gay man. Of course there's no possible way that information could be misused, I mean, just ask Alan Turing.

 

Seriously, this depresses the hell out of me. I'm a weirdo: a lefty who wants limited government power. The world I find myself in now is strange. There are people who claim to be on the right and who are arguing that "privacy" is some leftist conspiracy. That's not conventional right wing politics, that's crass authoritarianism.

[fletch70]

Antone, I am not sure that it makes you weird to be a lefty who wants limited government power. The old arguments are, I think, just that ,Old. They need to be updated to include the way the world has changed.

Marx could never have imagined the changes to society , the multiculturalism, globalisation or IT that are everywhere now . Granted Lenin did call Imperialism the highest form of capitalism but I doubt he considered neo imperialism with the emphasis on exporting culture and 'democracy' by the west in exchange for oil or outlets for trade.

 

My personal view is that we need state ownership and redistribution of wealth although I accept that heavy taxation on the rich done unilaterally could be difficult. Why does anyone need to, or even deserve to earn millions per year when you have people expected to survive on under £100 a week? I also believe that we have a right to a private life and should be able to go about our business without fear of what is or maybe .

[Conniff]

Antone, I am not sure that it makes you weird to be a lefty who wants limited government power. The old arguments are, I think, just that ,Old. They need to be updated to include the way the world has changed.

Marx could never have imagined the changes to society , the multiculturalism, globalisation or IT that are everywhere now . Granted Lenin did call Imperialism the highest form of capitalism but I doubt he considered neo imperialism with the emphasis on exporting culture and 'democracy' by the west in exchange for oil or outlets for trade.

 

My personal view is that we need state ownership and redistribution of wealth although I accept that heavy taxation on the rich done unilaterally could be difficult. Why does anyone need to, or even deserve to earn millions per year when you have people expected to survive on under £100 a week? I also believe that we have a right to a private life and should be able to go about our business without fear of what is or maybe .

 

So you want communism.

[fletch70]

So you want communism.

 

Yes that is what I would like the world to be moving towards however it is not an instant transition

[tobyjugg2]

So you want communism.

 

I don't, yet my views are similar to fletch in these circumstances.

 

I want accountable government and accountable 'security' services.

 

They should be servants of the state and not even think they are masters of all they survey let alone act like it.

 

I was quite proud and impressed that Cameron had a vote and acknowledged that the British people and their representatives did NOT want Britain involved in an illegal, immoral and pointless at best (we all see it now as far from 'best') regime change exercise.

 

Now they want to use the excuse of the expected (by anyone with even a basic understanding of the situation) fallout to urinate all over British Citizens very hard won rights.

Bull feces at it most prominent and aromatic.

[Conniff]

Yes that is what I would like the world to be moving towards however it is not an instant transition

 

Then I suggest you move to North Korea and enjoy your communism and all that goes with it.

[obiter dictum]

Why not China??

 

We seem to be letting them into every aspect of the UK infrastructure as a controlling interest, they are a communist state

[BarnOwl1]

Then I suggest you move to North Korea and enjoy your communism and all that goes with it.

Well said Coniff it seems this Fletch is warped in his out look, with his " communism" he will surely more " invasions " of his privacy and

many other things too.

[tobyjugg2]

Then I suggest you move to North Korea and enjoy your communism and all that goes with it.

 

North Korea is not a communist state, its an extreme right wing fascist dictatorship Conniff

 

Neither is Russia or china a communist state although what they are is more complex to lable nowadays than is North Korea.

 

The label of 'Communism; when used to describe them is simply bogeyman labels from the cold war era on our side, and trying to claim unachieved goals on the other.

 

 

and NO I do not want Communism as defined by Karl Marx.

I'm more a traditional and social Liberal.

[Ruleoflaw]

Yes that is what I would like the world to be moving towards however it is not an instant transition

 

 

 

Communism whilst a brilliant and benevolent idea cannot really work in practice, so Marx ideas nowadays are just very inconsequential. Marx caused a lot of suffering to those who subscribed to this middle class person's ideologies: Communist Manifesto, insofar as the poor working class (the pro letariat) became violent and lost their liberty in prisons. In terms of economics and the modern life and therein its quality, Communism would be like going back decades, such at Cuba's 1950s cars for example. Notwithstanding these things, people are too socialised in the normal life wherein the capitalists are too enmeshed in their normality to consider any anti Western capitalism ideologies. However, life is better for many under capitalism in the developed world anyway, but not so great for developing nations. As Macpherson said, first comes capitalism then comes liberalism..in that ideas of individuals' rights only come into play if there are first markets which create choice. How could capitalism ever work in 2015?

[AndyOrch]

Appears to be getting very personal...back to thread topic....otherwise it will be closed...again.

[tobyjugg2]

Appears to be getting very personal...back to thread topic....otherwise it will be closed...again.

 

Perhaps address the perpetrators rather than the platform on which others are attempting to hold intelligent comment and debate.

[AndyOrch]

Perhaps lets just keep the the thread topic of Surveillance bill Toby and disregard any nonsense.

[Ruleoflaw]

Communism essentially just means share. However since Darwin's Origin of the Species different societies received different values. At one time you needed GCSEs now you need a degree (credential inflation). The 'A' grade GCSE now is the old C+ grade (grade inflation). The problem with capitalism is that the upper classes decide who are the future factory workers on minimum wage, who are the architects, the doctors, the lawyers. 'Come to us and get an education, you will change your life, the same rhetoric used today was used many years ago when the politicians said to the famers 'come, let us educate you in our schools where your sons will be educated and will help you run your small family business farms. Then Parliament passed the Education Act 1859 (I believe's the date) The politicians use 'rights' to do this or that when they want to change one economy to another. Now we have the information economy as the industry economy has long gone. They say 'we have climate' change.. because they want a green economy. The thing, we fall for it hook, line and everything else, every time

[Ruleoflaw]

Only those who have something to hide would oppose this!

This Fletch 70? seems to me to have a very bitter an warped view of just about

every thing.

 

 

 

Well if the Tories get their way, they'll be no more Lords to scrutinise primary/ secondary legislation. The Tories have more numbers in the Lords too...

[Ruleoflaw]

The internet activity of everyone in Britain will have to be stored for a year by service providers, under new surveillance law plans.

 

Police and intelligence officers will be able to see the names of sites people have visited without a warrant, Home Secretary Theresa May said.

 

But there would be new safeguards over MI5, MI6 and the police spying on the full content of people's web use.

 

Mrs May told MPs the proposed powers were needed to fight crime and terror.

Follow the latest developments on our live page

 

The wide-ranging draft Investigatory Powers Bill also contains proposals covering how the state can hack devices and run operations to sweep up large amounts of data as it flows through the internet, enshrining in law the previously covert activities of GCHQ, as uncovered by whistleblower Edward Snowden.

 

The draft bill's measures include:

Giving a panel of judges the power to block spying operations authorised by the home secretary

A new criminal offence of "knowingly or recklessly obtaining communications data from a telecommunications operator without lawful authority", carrying a prison sentence of up to two years

Local councils to retain some investigatory powers, such as surveillance of benefit cheats, but they will not be able to access online data stored by internet firms

The Wilson doctrine - preventing surveillance of Parliamentarians' communications - to be written into law

Police will not be able to access journalistic sources without the authorisation of a judge

A legal duty on British companies to help law enforcement agencies hack devices to acquire information if it is reasonably practical to do so

Former Appeal Court judge Sir Stanley Burnton is appointed as the new interception of communications commissioner

 

BBC

 

 

The state already has the right to use surveillance, hmm first they tried to pass the Identity Card Bill which we rightfully rejected, now they try to pass other equally outrageous legislation on us. What happened to that good ole 'legitimate aim' and 'principle of proportionality' before the state qualified to interrupt out human rights. Oh, yes that's right the Tories also plan to repeal the Human Rights Act and replace it with a UK Bill of Rights that will just keep us useless eaters pacified ..until we read that law and wonder what the heck we did. Look at the US Constitution - it is substantive....has been operable for about a 100 years.

[fletch70]

Well if the Tories get their way, they'll be no more Lords to scrutinise primary/ secondary legislation. The Tories have more numbers in the Lords too...

 

The Tories claim that the Lords are full of Labour and Lib dem peers so they can't have it both ways

[fletch70]

Do you really want the authorities to know what websites you look at , who you communicate with . Its bad enough at the moment when you book something online and google then fills the page with ads for the same thing or when you shop online and Tesco say "have you forgotten x"

 

Do you really think that clubcard or nectar or even your credit card is done just to drive loyalty , no they make money out of it by selling your details

 

Recently I opted out of the NHS sharing of data, I do not want my medical data to potentially be sold to drug companies etc

 

 

As for communism , as already said, North Korea , The Soviet Union and China are not and probably never have been communist , the nearest the USSR came to being communist was in the era of Lenin . As for Cuba , well there is a lot of bad press about Cuba, we never hear the good things such as their health care .

 

Socialism is a step on the way to communism and before that Capitalism . After Communism comes Utopia

 

For the Sci Fi fans maybe Star Trek is a communist Utopia

[Conniff]

As for communism , as already said, North Korea , The Soviet Union and China are not and probably never have been communist , the nearest the USSR came to being communist was in the era of Lenin . As for Cuba , well there is a lot of bad press about Cuba, we never hear the good things such as their health care .

 

Socialism is a step on the way to communism and before that Capitalism . After Communism comes Utopia

 

For the Sci Fi fans maybe Star Trek is a communist Utopia

 

Your posts are getting worse.

 

China, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba officially claim to be communist states, the country that adheres most strictly to communist principles, according to Oxford University scholar Robert Service, is North Korea. He should know, he wrote the book on it — Comrades! A History of World Communism.

[fletch70]

Conniff

They can claim to be anything they want but the fact is that in the communist state described by Marx and Engels there are no all powerful politburos . There can be little doubt that North Korea is a rogue state with a hereditary line of dictators

How does 7000 Billionaires in Shanghai equate to communism

 

Having read a review or two of the book, they are not good and certainly do not back up the claims you have made.