Surveillance bill includes internet records storage

[obiter dictum]

Antone makes a good point

 

I was no stranger to demonstrations and rallies through my trade union membership.

 

We were doing nothing wrong but were being constantly photographed by the police "Forward intelegence team" for simply carrying out our lawful business.

 

I have no doubt i am on some database someware as a possible subversive but the point remains.

 

I was doing nothing wrong so why should a citizen be subjected to such intrusion from the state?

 

What next, Thought crime, re-educational facilities??

 

Mind you if i am on not on some police database by now i should be throughly ashamed of myself

Edited November 4, 2015 by obiter dictum

[tobyjugg2]

Someone mentioned online banking - I'm sure they'd have to draw a line somewhere when it comes your personal details. Whilst they'd have a right to see that you're looking at how to make a bomb, I'm sure they'd only be able to go as far as "visited bank website" and no further.

 

Glad you are sure.

Any reason for you feeling sure other than wishful thinking?

[BarnOwl1]

Seems someone has something to hide, probably doesn't want anyone to know .......

 

Well said sir!

Ms Chukabutty and those of her type are a waste of time and space.

[tobyjugg2]

However, I'm much more concerned about the general principle here, which seems to be that the government will collect information about citizens who are suspected or accused of no crime, solely because they think it might come in handy in future.

 

+1

[Conniff]

+1

 

However, I'm much more concerned about the general principle here, which seems to be that the government will collect information about citizens who are suspected or accused of no crime, solely because they think it might come in handy in future.

 

That isn't how they have said it will be worked, no info will be gleaned from anyone. ISP must now keep your use for a year, if the authorities suspect you of anything, they can then call on the ISP to release your browsing habits and emails.

 

ISP's have a record of what you do anyway, that is how the likes of Davenport got the details of P2P downloaders so they could send out the big demands they did.

[unclebulgaria67]

I see no issue with this, provided it is just used with oversight looking into serious issues. It cannot be used just to be nosey, whenever someone feels the need.

[Conniff]

Me neither. They can't see the text of emails, any they need to see they have to get a judges permission first so will have to show reason.

 

Anyway with an estimated 190 billion emails sent and received worldwide each day they would have no chance of reading them, not even a glance.

[trebormoinet]

Regardless of the privacy issue how can the Government justify a requirement that industry wide security standards have to be deliberately compromised so that Joe public can be monitored, this is just playing into the hands of cyber-criminals.

 

As for privacy Data sellers who track our every move and serve us customised experiences probably know far more about everyone who has an on-line presence than our security agencies ever could, even with the changes.

[trebormoinet]

Me neither. They can't see the text of emails, any they need to see they have to get a judges permission first so will have to show reason.

 

Anyway with an estimated 190 billion emails sent and received worldwide each day they would have no chance of reading them, not even a glance.

 

They use data mining tools to search those millions of communications at light speed for key words.

[tobyjugg2]

if the authorities suspect you of anything, they can then call on the ISP to release your browsing habits and emails.

 

Exactly.

"if the authorities suspect you of anything"

 

Used to be called fishing expeditions, and commonly illegal.

Generally because the 'information' can be selectively picked and 'lost' to create any scenario you wish.

 

Still common in places like China and North Korea I believe.

[antone]

That isn't how they have said it will be worked, no info will be gleaned from anyone. ISP must now keep your use for a year, if the authorities suspect you of anything, they can then call on the ISP to release your browsing habits and emails.

 

ISP's have a record of what you do anyway, that is how the likes of Davenport got the details of P2P downloaders so they could send out the big demands they did.

 

That, I feel, is a distinction without a difference.The fact that the information is being stored and is accessible to the government without any warrant is sufficient to cause privacy concerns. And that's also the difference between new the new rules and current procedures. Yes, ISPs keep logs for technical reasons, but they are not obliged to make that information available to the authorities unless served with a warrant.

[obiter dictum]

And that is a Warrant issued by the judiciary with full judicial oversight issued by a Judge

 

Not some clandestine Government department in violation of Civil Liberties

[mikeymack2002]

If you own a smart phone has you actually looked at what is stored in the device? There are screen shots of sites visited and the same for what videos you have watched. These are stored as thumbnails on your device.

 

My daughter was horrified when some of this turned up when she backed up her mobile to the home PC and the PC promptly put them up in the screensaver app....

 

 

BTW I have never seen someone grab the remote so fast in my life and run out so red faced ....

[Conniff]

They use data mining tools to search those millions of communications at light speed for key words.

 

That, I feel, is a distinction without a difference.The fact that the information is being stored and is accessible to the government without any warrant is sufficient to cause privacy concerns. And that's also the difference between new the new rules and current procedures. Yes, ISPs keep logs for technical reasons, but they are not obliged to make that information available to the authorities unless served with a warrant.

 

Data mining has always been used.

 

It works in exactly the same way as searching your house, if they suspect you of being involved in something and they can show just cause, they get a judge to issue a search warrant and come and search your house.

They have never systematically searched homes and the same goes with online accounts.

 

If intelligence comes to light pointing to someone, they will then take a look at their browsing habits. If those habits are CAG or porn or beastiality or whatever, they aren't interested, but if those browsing habits show multiple visits to say terrorist related, Islamist or kiddie porn sites, then, and only then, will they get a warrant to look at your emails to see exactly what you are up to.

If they turn out to be innocent, then they are destroyed and they go for a coffee.

 

They really aren't interested in the ordinary man in the street going about his lawful business.

[tobyjugg2]

Data mining has always been used.

 

Yes, ILLEGALLY.

How you already forgotten the stink about GCHQ and the Americans helping each other spy on each others citisens - to give them half a loophole to bypass eachs own laws?

Its still in the news, and resulted in this bill to retrospectively make it legal HERE.

 

 

 

It works in exactly the same way as searching your house, if they suspect you of being involved in something and they can show just cause, they get a judge to issue a search warrant and come and search your house.

They have never systematically searched homes and the same goes with online accounts.

Is a legal requirement to carry a voice recorder around to record everything you say next?

Shouldn't bother anyone who says never says anything that could be interpreted as 'against the state'.

 

 

They really aren't interested in the ordinary man in the street going about his lawful business.

Yes, thats what China and North Korea say as well.

 

 

The issue is that the person accused will not have the same level of access to their 'data' and would almost certainly be unable to defend against any accusations created from selectively pulling chosen pieces of ones history.

 

As a perfect example of the point for you Conniff,

I think it would be very easy to pull a whole raft of choice quotes from your posts here which would damn you as a terrorist inciting violence against elected members of parliament.

 

... and thats what 'kill' 'dead' 'parliament' 'mp' type keyword searches against your history would pull up.

 

It would be very hard for you to prove that you were only a blowhard and not a terrorist in court with those 'hard facts' presented against you.

[Conniff]

Yes, ILLEGALLY.

How you already forgotten the stink about GCHQ and the Americans helping each other spy on each others citisens - to give them half a loophole to bypass eachs own laws?

Its still in the news, and resulted in this bill to retrospectively make it legal HERE.

 

 

 

 

Is a legal requirement to carry a voice recorder around to record everything you say next?

Shouldn't bother anyone who says never says anything that could be interpreted as 'against the state'.

 

 

 

Yes, thats what China and North Korea say as well.

 

 

The issue is that the person accused will not have the same level of access to their 'data' and would almost certainly be unable to defend against any accusations created from selectively pulling chosen pieces of ones history.

 

As a perfect example of the point for you Conniff,

I think it would be very easy to pull a whole raft of choice quotes from your posts here which would damn you as a terrorist inciting violence against elected members of parliament.

 

... and thats what 'kill' 'dead' 'parliament' 'mp' type keyword searches against your history would pull up.

 

It would be very hard for you to prove that you were only a blowhard and not a terrorist in court with those 'hard facts' presented against you.

 

There is no point in try to goad, there is nothing to debate, if you don't like it Tough

[tobyjugg2]

There is no point in try to goad, there is nothing to debate, if you don't like it Tough

 

I genuinely wasn't trying to goad - just highlighting the point in a way you should be able to see related to you personally rather than you perhaps very mistakenly thinking it wouldn't affect you.

 

The whole point being how unreliable and unjust that system is where it is implemented.

[unclebulgaria67]

I think the point is that this is going to happen anyway and Police/security services will always want to remain equipped to detect people responsible for crimes or plotting to commit crimes. It is not going to affect 99% of the people and some of the 1% with something to worry about will find other ways to protect their privacy. Quite often, as proved with the Egypt plane bomb, the security services did not come across intelligence until after it had happened. Now they have the data to try to find out who was responsible.

 

I am not particularly IT savvy, but i would be careful not to do too much online without understanding security risks. I don't use i cloud storage, as i have heard that it can be easily hacked into. I would be cautious about using public wifi hotspots. We have seen that a group of 15 year old boys can hack into various companies systems to get hold of customer information including debit/credit card details. Some of the hackers are way ahead of IT experts working for security services and i think we have more to fear from hackers, than Police or Security Services.

[obiter dictum]

It has not been proven yet the plane crash in Egypt was caused by a bomb

 

It is only the UK that has stated that

 

Even if it was a bomb that caused this crash let that be made official first befores speculation and Mystic Meg predictions

 

Remember the 30 minutes to hit Israel with chemical weapons from Iraq story that everbody believed??

The so called caves at at Tora Bora?

 

Have we learned nothing or just Susceptible to bad news stories they must be true as they came from our own Government?

Edited November 6, 2015 by obiter dictum

[tobyjugg2]

It has not been proven yet the plane crash in Egypt was caused by a bomb

 

It is only the UK that has stated that

 

Even if it was a bomb that caused this crash let that be made official first befores speculation and Mystic Meg predictions

 

Remember the 30 minutes to hit Israel with chemical weapons from Iraq story that everbody believed??

The so called caves at at Tora Bora?

 

Have we learned nothing or just Susceptible to bad news stories they must be true as they came from our own Government?

 

Wrong thread obiter -

But it was right that flights be cancelled and an alert set on the airport given the information available, just as Russia grounded other planes of that type despite no proof that it was a plane issue.

 

Safety before a resort or countries profits. It would have been far worse if another flight had blown up for any reason.

[unclebulgaria67]

It has not been proven yet the plane crash in Egypt was caused by a bomb

 

It is only the UK that has stated that

 

Even if it was a bomb that caused this crash let that be made official first befores speculation and Mystic Meg predictions

 

Remember the 30 minutes to hit Israel with chemical weapons from Iraq story that everbody believed??

The so called caves at at Tora Bora?

 

Have we learned nothing or just Susceptible to bad news stories they must be true as they came from our own Government?

 

We will have to see.

 

But the pictures of the wreckage show shrapnel damage from an interior explosion, unless these have been tampered with. And there is apparently intelligence information.

[labrat]

as for the internet traffic bill

 

guess im going to keep using tor alot (bypasses blocks on torrent sites) so ill probably be putting my next post up from inside gchq - assuming i have enough fingers left intact

 

and for the hacking things lets face it you don't have to be tech savy to find silly things out

 

i recently brought a second hand hard drive from a shop *cough*CEX*cough* and made a joke about hope there wasn't anything dodgy left on it, they made a point of going on about how well they were wiped

 

so i tested it, after about 4 mouse clicks i turned up around 11,000 files, including names addresses family photos videos etc

 

if a so called proffesional resale place cant wipe things properly why worry about what the goverments looking at

[obiter dictum]

Imagine having to keep every book, magazine, newspaper , letter, shopping receipt , concert ticket in your house for one year so at any time the state can come round and look at whatever they want .

 

Privacy is a fundamental human right.

 

Probably why they are trying to get rid of the ECHR

[tobyjugg2]

Imagine having to keep every book, magazine, newspaper , letter, shopping receipt , concert ticket in your house for one year so at any time the state can come round and look at whatever they want .

 

or just to prove that a future claim against you is incorrect, incomplete or out of context ...

[obiter dictum]

WHY DO YOU THINK THIS PROPOSED NEW BILL HAS BEEN INTRODUCED??

 

Why is certain information being kept out of the Media?

 

The High Court rulled in July that emergency data retention and surveillance legislation the Tory government introduced last year is unlawful.

 

The Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act, DRIPA must now be overturned because judges ruled it is inconsistent with EU laws. The government must replace the law by the end of March 2016.