advised to get on wrong train, got penalty ticket for being in 1st class on full train - help

[shannianni]

hi everyone,

 

I hobbled to catch a train this morning at east Croydon at 611am

the platform display was not working so I asked the train dispatcher was this the Clapham train he replied yes, I boarded the train.

as I sat in the seat the announcement said the next stop is London Blackfriars.

 

by this time the train was moving,

I got off at Blackfriars and told the guy on the platform what had happened he told me to go to platform 1 and get back to east Croydon.

I hobbled off to platform 1 as the train was due.

I got on this train and exited it at east Croydon at approx. 718

 

I boarded the next train at east Croydon for Clapham junction

this train was late and so there was lots of people waiting I boarded the train and as the train was packed stood in 1st class.

the 2 single seats were free so I sat on the arm rest as my damaged knee was aching from running for different trains.

 

about 5 minutes in 3 ticket inspectors said have I a 1st class ticket I replied no,

they said I couldn't sit in first class as I didn't have a ticket,

 

 

I said then were am I to stand as the carriage was ram packed and im sitting on an arm rest not on a seat ,

she said it doesn't matter and issued me a penalty ticket £20,

I told her what happened and she said it was my fault that I got on the wrong train,

 

can someone give me advice, this is the first time this has happened and I am fuming about

1 the guy told me to get on the wrong train

2 the next train was deleyed by 10 minutes from east croydon

3 there was no where else to stand apart from first class.

 

I am currently having physio on my damaged left knee so I needed to sit on the arm rest not the seat as my leg was aching,

I have letters mri scan and appointments of proof for this.

 

can someone please give me some advice is this legal to give me a penalty notice for being in first class

as the train was absolutely rammed from a delayed train.

 

the train I get on at 611--615is is always empty and this is the one I should have got

 

the train company is southern rail and the ticket inspectors were the same

 

many thanks

 

ian aka shanniani

Edited October 14, 2015 by shannianni
added southern rain

[unclebulgaria67]

Pay the penalty fare to stop futher action. Then send them a written complaint about what happened, with evidence of injury. See how they respond.

 

You cannot be in a 1st class carriage without a 1st class ticket, whatever the reasons. But the rail company should respond to your service issue complaints.

[shannianni]

many thanks for your reply.

 

 

I paid the £20 on the spot, the problem is if a train is delayed by 8-10 minutes then there will be a lot of people waiting to get on this train, surely under health and safety if the carriage is vastly overcrowded and there is space in first class why shouldn't you be allowed to stand in first class.

its not the peoples fault that their train is delayed.

they didn't even note my oyster number on the penalty notice.

[SabreSheep]

HI there

 

Have moved your thread to the public transport one.

 

Regards

 

SS

[unclebulgaria67]

O

many thanks for your reply.

 

 

I paid the £20 on the spot, the problem is if a train is delayed by 8-10 minutes then there will be a lot of people waiting to get on this train, surely under health and safety if the carriage is vastly overcrowded and there is space in first class why shouldn't you be allowed to stand in first class.

its not the peoples fault that their train is delayed.

they didn't even note my oyster number on the penalty notice.

 

Make the complaint to them to see if they are interested. I suspect there are many injured, disabled, pregnant etc, who have uncomfortable nightmare journeys on a regular basis. Some may take their chance in 1st class and hope they don't get caught.

 

Your complaint is about the service being offered, which is something you will have to take up with the train company and relevant authority.

[firstclassx]

hi everyone, please move if i'm not in the correct part.

 

 

I hobbled to catch a train this morning at east Croydon at 611am the platform display was noit working so I asked the train dispatcher was this the Clapham train he replied yes, I boarded the train.

as I sat in the seat the announcement said the next stop is London Blackfriars.

by this time the train was moving, I got off at Blackfriars and told the guy on the platform what had happened he told me to go to platform 1 and get back to east Croydon.

I hobbled off to platform 1 as the train was due.

I got on this train and exited it at east Croydon at approx. 718

I boarded the next train at east Croydon for Clapham junction this train was late and so there was lots of people waiting I boarded the train and as the train was packed stood in 1st class.

the 2 single seats were free so I sat on the arm rest as my damaged knee was aching from running for different trains.

about 5 minutes in 3 ticket inspectors said have I a 1st class ticket I replied no, they said I couldn't sit in first class as I didn't have a ticket, I said then were am I to stand as the carriage was ram packed and im sitting on an arm rest not on a seat , she said it doesn't matter and issued me a penalty ticket £20, I told her what happened and she said it was my fault that I got on the wrong train,

 

 

can someone give me advice, this is the first time this has happened and I am fuming about

1 the guy told me to get on the wrong train

2 the next train was deleyed by 10 minutes from east croydon

3 there was no where else to stand apart from first class.

 

 

I am currently having physio on my damaged left knee so I needed to sit on the arm rest not the seat as my leg was aching, I have letters mri scan and appointments of proof for this.

 

 

can someone please give me some advice is this legal to give me a penalty notice for being in first class as the train was absolutely rammed from a delayed train.

 

 

the train I get on at 611--615is is always empty and this is the one I should have got

 

the train company is southern rail and the ticket inspectors were the same

 

many thanks

 

 

ian aka shanniani

 

To be honest, the leg problem, potentially directed to wrong train etc is completely irrelevant.

 

You entered and remained in a first class compartment, (marked as such), with a standard class ticket.

 

If your injury was so severe that you could not stand in standard class accommodation, a reasonable person would assess the risk of travelling on the railways in and around Central London, and conclude that purchasing a (more expensive) first class ticket would be an appropriate solution.

 

You are quite lucky a Penalty Fare was issued as opposed to prosecution, which implies to me that the Inspector did not believe that you were deliberately attempting to avoid the fare. If they did believe you were intentionally avoiding the first class fare, then you would have been reported for prosecution.

 

You should pay the Penalty Fare without delay, and once the matter has been resolved:

 

You may wish to then contact the Train Operator to raise your complaint about being directed to an incorrect train. Bear in mind that 95% of the time, it is usually a failing of the customer/passenger as opposed to a trained and experienced railway employee. In any event, the very most you will achieve is an apology as it will be almost impossible to identify the employee concerned, and for him to recall anything from more than 24 hours previous.

 

(Your comment on Health & Safety makes me laugh. If you seriously believe it is that dangerous then YOU have to take the initiative to ensure that you are not placing yourself in danger. If it was that bad, why would you have boarded the train? Where you in so much of a rush that you were prepared to compromise your own safety and wellbeing?)

 

Also, why do you think there are more expensive first class fares that some people choose to buy? To travel in more comfort than standard class, of course!

 

Incidentally, a East Croydon to Clapham Junction Standard Class single is £4.10, first class is only £2 more and sounds like it would be a good future investment in your health.

[fkofilee]

Quite simply if the Guard hasnt declassified 1st class then without a 1st class ticket youre a biut stuffed

As a regular user of trains through East Croydon Govia are a bloody nightmare to deal with..

 

Just complain about it...

 

Best Rule of Thumb is if it says Thameslink... DONT GET ON IT....

[shannianni]

To be honest, the leg problem, potentially directed to wrong train etc is completely irrelevant.

 

You entered and remained in a first class compartment, (marked as such), with a standard class ticket.

 

If your injury was so severe that you could not stand in standard class accommodation, a reasonable person would assess the risk of travelling on the railways in and around Central London, and conclude that purchasing a (more expensive) first class ticket would be an appropriate solution.

 

You are quite lucky a Penalty Fare was issued as opposed to prosecution, which implies to me that the Inspector did not believe that you were deliberately attempting to avoid the fare. If they did believe you were intentionally avoiding the first class fare, then you would have been reported for prosecution.

 

You should pay the Penalty Fare without delay, and once the matter has been resolved:

 

You may wish to then contact the Train Operator to raise your complaint about being directed to an incorrect train. Bear in mind that 95% of the time, it is usually a failing of the customer/passenger as opposed to a trained and experienced railway employee. In any event, the very most you will achieve is an apology as it will be almost impossible to identify the employee concerned, and for him to recall anything from more than 24 hours previous.

 

(Your comment on Health & Safety makes me laugh. If you seriously believe it is that dangerous then YOU have to take the initiative to ensure that you are not placing yourself in danger. If it was that bad, why would you have boarded the train? Where you in so much of a rush that you were prepared to compromise your own safety and wellbeing?)

 

Also, why do you think there are more expensive first class fares that some people choose to buy? To travel in more comfort than standard class, of course!

 

Incidentally, a East Croydon to Clapham Junction Standard Class single is £4.10, first class is only £2 more and sounds like it would be a good future investment in your health.

 

 

 

 

firstclassx

 

 

to make you aware I purchase a monthy 2-5 ticket every month so you saying I should purchase one that cost 2 pound extra is ridiculous, my injury happened at the beginning of the month so how could I forsee that?

 

 

and YOU said being in such a rush is a laugh, if YOU READ what I put I said the train was DELAYED, every day I travel on this diabolical network, trains delayed "a crew member unavailable", Cancelled, train broken down, signal failure, leaves on the line, wrong kind of rain....how many more excuses for a SHXT service.

I came on this site for ADVICE, not criticism from a FIRST CLASS X

[unclebulgaria67]

K

Quite simply if the Guard hasnt declassified 1st class then without a 1st class ticket youre a biut stuffed

As a regular user of trains through East Croydon Govia are a bloody nightmare to deal with..

 

Just complain about it...

 

Best Rule of Thumb is if it says Thameslink... DONT GET ON IT....

 

Commuters from india would think service excellent. No hanging on from outside door or sitting on roof of trains.

 

London area is too successful. They need to spread the population to areas outside of London. They are trying to do this, by making it as difficult as possible to live in the area.

[shannianni]

Quite simply if the Guard hasnt declassified 1st class then without a 1st class ticket youre a biut stuffed

As a regular user of trains through East Croydon Govia are a bloody nightmare to deal with..

 

Just complain about it...

 

Best Rule of Thumb is if it says Thameslink... DONT GET ON IT....

 

 

how would a guard make an announcement, you cannot hear or understand what they say anyway, every train has a time slot, its the guard closing the doors that can make up or add to the delays on a service and they should be held accountable for the delays.

[shannianni]

K

 

Commuters from india would think service excellent. No hanging on from outside door or sitting on roof of trains.

 

London area is too successful. They need to spread the population to areas outside of London. They are trying to do this, by making it as difficult as possible to live in the area.

 

 

 

 

 

 

we are not in india are we, if you are pushing the people out of London that's well and good but they need to have a service that can cope first, Southeastern trains are the worst, having more cancellation, delays than anyone else.

this need to be addressed first.

[unclebulgaria67]

firstclassx

 

 

to make you aware I purchase a monthy 2-5 ticket every month so you saying I should purchase one that cost 2 pound extra is ridiculous, my injury happened at the beginning of the month so how could I forsee that?

 

 

and YOU said being in such a rush is a laugh, if YOU READ what I put I said the train was DELAYED, every day I travel on this diabolical network, trains delayed "a crew member unavailable", Cancelled, train broken down, signal failure, leaves on the line, wrong kind of rain....how many more excuses for a SHXT service.

I can on this site for ADVICE, not criticism from a FIRST CLASS X

 

But the point made is that however sh1t the service is, you still can't be in a 1st class carriage without a 1st class ticket. The inspectors probably catch a large number of people everyday in the same situation as yourself. I expect they make thousands of pounds every day from penalty fares, so there are inspectors on many trains.

 

Write to the train company about your experience, but i doubt they will show any understanding of the situation. You will probably receive a standard response.

[unclebulgaria67]

we are not in india are we, if you are pushing the people out of London that's well and good but they need to have a service that can cope first, Southeastern trains are the worst, having more cancellation, delays than anyone else.

this need to be addressed first.

 

I have only travelled once at peak time in East London and it was one of the most uncomfortable journeys i have had. Hundreds pushing on to a train, to try to get a seat, with most having to stand. Even the standing room was like sardines and they were right on top of those lucky to have a seat. Not nice being sat down with a sweaty armpit in your face, as they tried to hold onto the back of seats.

[shannianni]

But the point made is that however sh1t the service is, you still can't be in a 1st class carriage without a 1st class ticket. The inspectors probably catch a large number of people everyday in the same situation as yourself. I expect they make thousands of pounds every day from penalty fares, so there are inspectors on many trains.

 

Write to the train company about your experience, but i doubt they will show any understanding of the situation. You will probably receive a standard response.

 

 

hi can I ask 1 question, where on the train does it say you cannot stand in first class, some have closing internal doors to section you between standard and 1st class which say you cannot travel in this compartment without a 1st class ticket, this but this train only had the stickers on the window outside no internal dividing doors, so where is this displayed saying no standing....

[fkofilee]

Look we arent having a go at you... I just disagree with your comment.I gave you a fair point... and good advice and you just ignore it...

[shannianni]

Look we arent having a go at you... I just disagree with your comment.I gave you a fair point... and good advice and you just ignore it...

 

 

hi I have taken on your point but it was 1 mistake I have made, if they said can you move out of 1st class then I would have moved but to issue a penalty for sitting on an arm, next time ill be sleeping on the table if im getting fined.

 

 

may thanks for your time.

[unclebulgaria67]

hi can I ask 1 question, where on the train does it say you cannot stand in first class, some have closing internal doors to section you between standard and 1st class which say you cannot travel in this compartment without a 1st class ticket, this but this train only had the stickers on the window outside no internal dividing doors, so where is this displayed saying no standing....

 

From what i recall there is usually a sticker on the carriages about tickets. But there are the usual train byelaws about having tickets relevant to your journey. The tickets don't normally specify any seat in such trains.

 

If there were no rules, all the overcrowding from standard class would always end up with standing in 1st class.

[SabreSheep]

Sammy your post has been unapproved

 

Please do not attack other site users.

[Sammy13]

in my opinion you have been let off this time. usually people will be prosecuted for incidents like this. That is the LAW if you like it or not!

[Old-CodJA]

hi can I ask 1 question, where on the train does it say you cannot stand in first class, some have closing internal doors to section you between standard and 1st class which say you cannot travel in this compartment without a 1st class ticket, this but this train only had the stickers on the window outside no internal dividing doors, so where is this displayed saying no standing....

 

 

 

If you go to the 'stickies' at the top of this forum you will see a thread entitled National Railway Byelaws (2005) - Ticketing

 

You will find Byelaw 19 states as follows:

 

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths

 

Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

[timbo58]

As OC states. the rules regarding where you can be accommodated are in the byelaws.

The byelaws and conditions of carriage are quite lengthy so to have stickers for everything on every train wouldn't be possible.

 

I understand some train operators decide to place advice stickers, but it isn't a mandatory requirement to do this.

 

From what you've said so far I believe the PF was applied correctly, however there may be grounds for appeal IF

other passengers without 1st class tickets were NOT Penalty fared and allowed to simply leave the carriage, so if there were other passengers and they were all PF'd too (within the contrasts of time and other duties of the revenue staff of course) then it's unlikely any appeal will work.

 

On the other hand 'sitting on the arm' would prevent a 1st class ticket holder from using the seat so that could be a reason to be 'harsher per se', I wasn't there so I cannot say.

 

It seems the incorrect advice from the member of staff is the main issue however, so stick to that in any complaint/appeal as general comments (however valid) about the guards/trains/service will be ignored.

[obiter dictum]

Might Firstclass answer this one please

 

Being that our trains are always full to capacity, and me being disabled i admit to using 1st class carriage when needed.

 

When the guard comes round before i even show him my ticket i ask to be upgraded to 1st class. he normally does it on the spot with no issues and the upgrade cost is very reasonable. I have never paid more than £10.00 extra

[firstclassx]

Might Firstclass answer this one please

 

Being that our trains are always full to capacity, and me being disabled i admit to using 1st class carriage when needed.

 

When the guard comes round before i even show him my ticket i ask to be upgraded to 1st class. he normally does it on the spot with no issues

 

Depends on what Train Operating Company you travel with, the day of the week, whether you are in a Penalty Fare area, whether your disability prevents you from using a ticket office before boarding and what ticket you originally hold.

 

If a Penalty Fare area, the guard is not an authorised collector and can only issue the excess fare, but if you are one day checked by a Revenue Protection Inspector, the excess fare will be replaced by a more expensive Penalty Fare unless your disability prevented you from obtaining the excess beforehand.

 

First Great Western, East Midlands Trains, South West Trains, GTR (Thameslink/Great Northern/Southern/GatExp), London Midland and Southeastern could Penalty Fare or prosecute you for occupying first class without a first class ticket.

 

FGW, EMT, SWT and LM have a different policy at weekends.

[obiter dictum]

Thanks, i did it for 5 years with no issues, mind you it was off peak to get to the nearest hospital for my condition

 

I think it should be mandatory that train companies make it a bye law that an able bodied passangers have to give up designated seats if required by a mobility impaired customer. There should be at least 2 seats in every carriage

 

And yes it was a normal train guard every time and not revenue protection

 

So i guess i have been lucky

[firstclassx]

Thanks, i did it for 5 years with no issues, mind you it was off peak to get to the nearest hospital for my condition

 

I think it should be mandatory that train companies make it a bye law that an able bodied passanger have to give up designated seats if required by a mobility impaired customer. There should be at least 2 seats in every carriage

 

And yes it was a normal train guard every time and not revenue protection

 

So i guess i have been lucky

 

There is actually a Byelaw that covers this, but is generally one of the ones where you hope human decency towards a less fourtunate individual prevails without the need to criminalise someone.

 

Lots of the Railway Byelaws could be fitted to apply:

 

See 6(2). 6(8), 10(2), 12(1), 13(1)(ii).

 

I would personally prefer 13(1)(ii)

 

(1) No person shall enter or remain on any part of the railway where there is a

notice:

(ii) indicating that it is reserved or provided for a specified

category of person only, except where he belongs to that

specified category.

 

I think Priority Seats, the pictograms etc and similarly labelled parts of the railway would be sufficient notice.