advised to get on wrong train, got penalty ticket for being in 1st class on full train - help

[obiter dictum]

Yes but when people are in theses designated seats and they see a passenger on cruthches they act as if they do not see you

 

You are only requested to give up your seat via those pictograms, it is never compulsory

 

It should be compulsory and enforced through the penalty fare system if the person does not vacate the seat when requested

[SabreSheep]

Can we stick to the issue at hand please.

[firstclassx]

Yes but when people are in theses designated seats and they see a passenger on cruthches they act as if they do not see you

 

You are only requested to give up your seat via those pictograms, it is never compulsory

 

It should be compulsory and enforced through the penalty fare system if the person does not vacate the seat when requested

 

It is compulsory if a member of railway staff requests so, (but not really if the customer asks).

[obiter dictum]

Thanks for the info Firstclass

 

Sorry people if we went off topic for a moment

[shannianni]

hi all,

 

 

what is the difference between a revenue inspector and a guard issuing a penalty.

 

 

my monthly travel card has zones 2-5 so surely I should have paid the excess fare by standing in first class and not the £20, the lady didn't once check my card with a reader.

 

 

how do I know the lady works for the rail company and not just taking my card details she didn't show me any identification.

 

 

I have heard from someone who works for the railway that these guards will issue you with the highest out of the 2 fines as they are on commission, this surely is illegal? to do such a thing.

[obiter dictum]

A guard as a rule will not issue you with a penalty fare

 

He will let you pay the difference as long as you are upfront and do not try and Blag it

 

Revenue inspectors are there to secure the financial stability of the railway. They are hard nose as that is there job. They will decide on any further action on the way you interact with them if you fall foul of the rules

 

I find they are fine with honest mistakes and they will soon spot a blagger

Edited October 16, 2015 by obiter dictum

[shannianni]

so how can I tell the difference as they didn't show any identification, if they are taking money surely this should be showed?

 

 

can they physically stop you leaving a train, as this would be assault, and if I said nothing when asked a question what can they do?

[SabreSheep]

Not sure what the q about physically stopping you has to do with the issue at hand.

[shannianni]

Not sure what the q about physically stopping you has to do with the issue at hand.

 

 

it was a mistake on my behalf, im just saying can they physically stop you leaving the train without even talking to them.

 

 

and im asking about a £20 fine and extra payment for a mistake as I had a zone 2-5 card, as I heard they get commission for the higher fare, im asking does this happen?

[obiter dictum]

Yes they can physicallly stop you

 

This will be covered under section 24A Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984

 

Some of these revenue inspectors even travel with a plain clothed British Transport copper who holds a warrant card

 

You have a statutory duty to give your details under the railway bye laws if requested.

Failure to do so is an offence

[shannianni]

I find that hard to believe as a policeman cannot even touch you as this would be physical assault, you can only be restrained by the police once you have been read your rights.

 

 

and the collectors showed no id either

[obiter dictum]

Section 24 PACE

 

If a constable has reasonable grounds for suspecting that an offence has been committed, he may arrest without a warrant anyone whom he has reasonable grounds to suspect of being guilty of it.

 

(3)If an offence has been committed, a constable may arrest without a warrant—

 

(a)anyone who is guilty of the offence;

 

(b)anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be guilty of it.

 

 

24A PACE

 

Arrest without warrant: other persons

 

(1)A person other than a constable may arrest without a warrant—

 

(a)anyone who is in the act of committing an indictable offence;

 

(b)anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be committing an indictable offence.

 

Edited October 16, 2015 by obiter dictum

[shannianni]

Section 24 PACE

 

If a constable has reasonable grounds for suspecting that an offence has been committed, he may arrest without a warrant anyone whom he has reasonable grounds to suspect of being guilty of it.

 

(3)If an offence has been committed, a constable may arrest without a warrant—

 

(a)anyone who is guilty of the offence;

 

(b)anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be guilty of it.

 

 

24A PACE

 

Arrest without warrant: other persons

 

(1)A person other than a constable may arrest without a warrant—

 

(a)anyone who is in the act of committing an indictable offence;

 

(b)anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be committing an indictable offence.

 

 

 

a guard is not a constable, only british transport police can arrest or detain you, below is from a solicitor.

 

 

It's very unlikely that a court would consider either a ticket

collector, a guard nor a Revenue Protection Officer to be an officer in the

sense intended by the legislation

[obiter dictum]

Very last comment from me

 

Look at section 24A (1)(a)(b) PACE

 

The arrest made by anyone other than a warranted police constable is made under COMMON LAW

(Citizens arrest)

 

I am out of here

[firstclassx]

If you ask for ID, a Revenue Protection Inspector must show it- but only if issuing a Penalty Fare. They will show you their warrant card on request if being cautioned (MG11).

 

Contrary to popular belief, any member of rail staff has an explicit power of arrest, using force if suitable, and without the assistance of police. However, for ticketing offences they only have the power or arrest if you:

 

1) Travel without a valid ticket and

2) Provide false, or refuse to offer, your correct name and address.

 

So if you try and walk away they are physically and legally allowed to detain you to prevent you making an escape.

 

(Section 5- Regulation of Railways Act 1889)

 

For other offences, such as assault, robbery, criminal damage etc, the Section 24A (PACE) power of arrest is applicable.

 

Not surprising at all that your solicitor does not know the law- railway law is a highly specific and well tested area- and people often make things far worse by speaking to solicitors etc with no knowledge of the railway. There's 2 firms of solicitors in the whole of England that I would trust- and even then I am having to constantly remind their junior staff of the law. You must also remember that 99% of the time we are venturing into criminal offences, not civil.

[obiter dictum]

Thanks for the confirmation Firstclass

 

It is appreciated

[shannianni]

hi mr firstclassx

 

 

as you know what is what, can you give me a answer to these please

 

 

I made a mistake by standing/sitting on the arm of a chair in 1st class as the carriage was ram packed, as I had a zone 2-5 monthly pass why wasn't I asked to pay the extra fee for 1st class, but was ordered to pay a £20 penalty. does the guard issuing the ticket get commission for their sales and/or penalties issues?

 

 

many thanks

[firstclassx]

hi mr firstclassx

 

 

as you know what is what, can you give me a answer to these please

 

 

I made a mistake by standing/sitting on the arm of a chair in 1st class as the carriage was ram packed, as I had a zone 2-5 monthly pass why wasn't I asked to pay the extra fee for 1st class, but was ordered to pay a £20 penalty. does the guard issuing the ticket get commission for their sales and/or penalties issues?

 

 

many thanks

 

You were not issued a Penalty Fare by a "guard", you were issued one by a Revenue Protection Inspector/Officer. There are major differences between the job titles. You occupied a chair in First class accommodation, whilst you may not have sat in it, you nevertheless still occupied it. In any event, that part of the train is for customers who wish to pay for extra comfort, to avoid the overcrowded standard class. It normally guarantees that they will get a seat, and will not have to wait for the next train - therefore a premium fare applies, as it is a higher level of service being provided. Unfortunately there are lots of busy trains, and you have to decide whether it is worthwhile to pay extra for comfort, wait for the next train or remain in crowded standard class. You were issued a Penalty Fare because had you not had your ticket checked, you would never have went to the ticket office afterwards to pay the extra for first class, you would have just left the station as normal. In addition, because you have a season ticket, unless you upgrade your entire season ticket to 1st Class, "paying the difference" for a one off journey is not possible anyway, even if you tried before boarding.

 

If people could be trusted to use a service and subsequently pay for it then Penalty Fares would not be needed. Our society is now increasingly dishonest and take the view that if they can get away with something, they will try.

 

But, generally, no - Revenue Protection staff do NOT usually get commission on Penalty Fares. Some Train Operating Companies do have a very small commission scheme, but is becoming increasingly rare. For other roles within the railway, ticket sales commission is more common (normal tickets, not Penalties etc), but is around 3-5% maximum, so even if a Penalty Fare did provide commission, you are talking between 50p and £1 maximum.

 

However, if you are thinking that Revenue Protection staff would simply target you for commission, take into account that the cost of processing a Penalty Fare is around £5, (administration, independent, appeals costs, cash handling etc). Therefore if an Inspector was issuing lots of incorrect Penalty Fare tickets, which would obviously be cancelled on appeal, the rail operator could substantially lose a lot of revenue in the administration of the scheme, and their Line Manager would then clearly investigate why so many of the Penalty Fares were found to be inappropriate.

 

The Department for Transport does allow commission to be paid on Penalty Fares, so long as it is reasonable and proportionate enough so that it does not affect the discretion or judgement of the staff involved. Revenue Protection Inspectors/Officers are generally earning between £30,000-£35,000 a year anyway, and are generally seen as a professional grade - commission would be negligible to them, the risk of taking advantage would far outweigh losing their good salary.

 

4.26 Authorised collectors and other staff who sell tickets on trains often receive commission on

the value of the tickets they sell. Some operators also pay staff a small amount of commission

(typically 5%) on the value of the penalty fares charged. We have no objection to this, as long

as the percentage is small and the relevant instructions about the use of discretion and the

circumstances in which penalty fares may or may not be charged are strictly followed.

[Old-CodJA]

If you ask for ID, a Revenue Protection Inspector must show it- but only if issuing a Penalty Fare. They will show you their warrant card on request if being cautioned (MG11).

 

Contrary to popular belief, any member of rail staff has an explicit power of arrest, using force if suitable, and without the assistance of police. However, for ticketing offences they only have the power or arrest if you:

 

1) Travel without a valid ticket and

2) Provide false, or refuse to offer, your correct name and address.

 

So if you try and walk away they are physically and legally allowed to detain you to prevent you making an escape.

 

(Section 5- Regulation of Railways Act 1889)

 

For other offences, such as assault, robbery, criminal damage etc, the Section 24A (PACE) power of arrest is applicable.

 

Not surprising at all that your solicitor does not know the law- railway law is a highly specific and well tested area- and people often make things far worse by speaking to solicitors etc with no knowledge of the railway. There's 2 firms of solicitors in the whole of England that I would trust- and even then I am having to constantly remind their junior staff of the law. You must also remember that 99% of the time we are venturing into criminal offences, not civil.

 

 

 

 

That is an excellent, and accurate summary of the process and I would add just one important point.

 

Many do not realise that to be able to issue a Penalty Fare Notice a member of rail staff does not automatically have to be a Revenue Protection Inspector, but must be an Authorised Person within the meaning of the Penalty Fares Rules. It is this AP ID that an authorised person must be able to show in order to issue Penalty Fare Notices (PFNs).

 

The Revenue Protection Inspector will be trained to make out MG11's and report offenders for prosecution, s/he might also be a PFN authorised person, but not all are although they will all carry an inspector's warrant. That is different to the PFN AP identity.

 

I certainly agree that a very high number of the Solicitors who write to my office daily have little or no understanding of Railway Law and as firstclassx says, can & often do make matters worse for their clients.

 

Those seeking qualified legal advice should always try to use a lawyer who is experienced in criminal law and who is known at the Court where any potential case might be heard. There are a few firms who claim to have specialist expertise in railways matters, but in reality these are rare. Like firstclassx I can think of a couple of good ones who contact us from time to time, but quite a number get it spectacularly wrong and the ones who often do worst are those 'bullish' types who attempt to bully prosecutions office staff.

 

It's an old saying, but true nonetheless, 'empty barrels make the most noise'.

[shannianni]

That is an excellent, and accurate summary of the process and I would add just one important point.

 

Many do not realise that to be able to issue a Penalty Fare Notice a member of rail staff does not automatically have to be a Revenue Protection Inspector, but must be an Authorised Person within the meaning of the Penalty Fares Rules. It is this AP ID that an authorised person must be able to show in order to issue Penalty Fare Notices (PFNs).

 

The Revenue Protection Inspector will be trained to make out MG11's and report offenders for prosecution, s/he might also be a PFN authorised person, but not all are although they will all carry an inspector's warrant. That is different to the PFN AP identity.

 

I certainly agree that a very high number of the Solicitors who write to my office daily have little or no understanding of Railway Law and as firstclassx says, can & often do make matters worse for their clients.

 

Those seeking qualified legal advice should always try to use a lawyer who is experienced in criminal law and who is known at the Court where any potential case might be heard. There are a few firms who claim to have specialist expertise in railways matters, but in reality these are rare. Like firstclassx I can think of a couple of good ones who contact us from time to time, but quite a number get it spectacularly wrong and the ones who often do worst are those 'bullish' types who attempt to bully prosecutions office staff.

 

It's an old saying, but true nonetheless, 'empty barrels make the most noise'.

 

But I was not shown any I'd. As the post states I'd must be shown prior to issuing a penalty. The slip I have states it is a penalty notice.

[unclebulgaria67]

But I was not shown any I'd. As the post states I'd must be shown prior to issuing a penalty. The slip I have states it is a penalty notice.

 

So make a complaint to the train operator.

 

Can't see any point for a continued debate here, as all useful information has now been provided over 3 pages. It is now time to start the complaint process with the train company about what happened and see where it goes.

[SabreSheep]

I concur, this thread is beginning to run to its conclusion unless OP does a formal complaint

[firstclassx]

But I was not shown any I'd. As the post states I'd must be shown prior to issuing a penalty. The slip I have states it is a penalty notice.

 

Unless you SPECIFICALLY requested to see ID then there is no requirement to show you any. They must have ID with them to issue a Penalty Fare etc, but they do not have to show you any until you actually ask them to.

 

You are trying to look for some sort of technicality or loophole which simply does not exist.

[fkofilee]

Mods, worth closing this one like UB says?

[Old-CodJA]

Unless you SPECIFICALLY requested to see ID then there is no requirement to show you any. They must have ID with them to issue a Penalty Fare etc, but they do not have to show you any until you actually ask them to.

 

You are trying to look for some sort of technicality or loophole which simply does not exist.

 

 

 

Yes, and as I said in my post 'must be ABLE to show', not 'must show'.