Post work programme support - Your experiences?

[Jmulv]

I'm aware there is a mega thread on this but it's quite diluted and filled with general questions a lot of which are not related to PWP at all.

 

So thought I'd create a new thread to try and concentrate the information and compile the experiences of people who have had their first appointment on it or are currently further on down the line with PWP. Basically what you've experienced and what you are now expected to do/what they are doing at the moment on PWP. I basically just want to get a feel for what happens on PWP as a whole and how things change over time and I think this thread could help a lot of confused people (As I was the other week) to find concentrated information about PWP and what to expect. I also hope people can learn about it to ensure they are doing everything correctly to avoid a sanction because I feel like there are a lot of little pitfalls with PWP at least from what i've seen so far and if you are not careful you get slapped with a sanction even though you may be doing all that you can.

 

Not sure if this thread will take off but I think it'll be helpful to everyone if we all try to contribute a little bit of our experiences / stories so i'll start and try and keep it only about PWP. Maybe some people who have been on PWP longer can also advise us how things can get tougher/different, how they try to catch you out (From my experiences i've got the feeling some advisors seem to do this, they actually look for underhanded ways to sanction you but not all do)

 

I had my first PWP interview today, it was ok just asked me general questions about why I thought I wasn't finding a job and looked at my skills, the advisor wasn't pushy, rude or anything like that thankfully she was pretty neutral toward me. She just said I need to take a more active stance in job searching rather than a passive one (That confused me because sending out C.Vs etc is a active stance?) but she said stuff like phoning employers, all i've found from doing that is most employers don't care and don't have the time to deal with people phoning in.

 

I got given a new claimant commitment to sign the points I have to adhere too, the main ones at least are.

 

I will use jobsites and employer websites to find and apply for jobs i can do. (Daily)

I will log into my universal jobmatch account to find and apply for jobs I can do. (Daily)

I will contact employers directly to ask about jobs / apply for them (weekly)

I will ask family and friends etc about jobs (Weekly)

I will respond promptly to contacts and notifications from employers etc (Daily).

I will register and maintain contact with recruitment agencies (ongoing).

 

So that's my new claimant commitment, thankfully it doesn't seem to be as random and as many hoops as other people seem to face like look for work 4hrs. a day, go into town and look at job boards or some crap like that.

 

However the UJ point i am concerned about I do not like UJ and it's crapp when I used to use it all jobs were just spam etc. I realise if you don't follow these points you can be sanctioned so it's best to do them all. I generally for the most part am and I usually bring in printouts of jobs I've applied for.

 

But the with relation to UJ how do I proceed with that? do I check website without logging in so they can't track me and maybe apply for odd job? I heard idea from someone who said if they keep pushing you just say website doesn't work, disable cookies try log on and print off the error and show the advisor. Sounds like a plan if they really try to stop me using better websites. She didn't really push UJ and didn't seem to care about it just said oh it's easier etc. (UJ advice courtesy of a poster here called Mr. P)

 

Also the recruitment agencies one how do I proceed with that?

 

I also have to fill in a "My work plan" booklet has 2 sections to fill in between interviews it just has 2 boxes of "I will (What i'm going to do / how / when / where and What I did and what was the result?

 

How should I go about filling in these parts? She also said write how long it took you, she sort of mentioned it as an offhand comment to do that.

 

She also mentioned me looking into volunteer work, I don't want to do something completely arbitrary i'd like to spend a bit of time maybe doing something that has a little substance if I am pushed into doing this at least anyone else volunteer? do they push you quite hard into doing it?

 

Thanks for advice,

 

Hopefully others share and we can exchange advice.

[Chester6]

Default Re: work programme after 2 years

Unfortunately PWP tends to rationalise rudeness and bullying as acceptable and even when you show them you've done as agreed they try to treat you like dirt and they will try to force you to allow UJM access. They won probably send you on a fortnight course to do with cvs, interviews and money because someone you don't know doesn't know how to manage money

They may try to berate you over your spending habits and appearance and try to lie that being unemployed is your fault

 

Unfortunately PWP tends to rationalise rudeness and bullying as acceptable and even when you show them you've done as agreed they try to treat you like dirt and they will try to force you to allow UJM access. They won probably send you on a fortnight course to do with cvs, interviews and money because someone you don't know doesn't know how to manage money

They may try to berate you over your spending habits and appearance and try to lie that being unemployed is your fault

 

 

there is more but I'll elaborate later

[citizenB]

 

They may try to berate you over your spending habits and appearance and try to lie that being unemployed is your fault

 

I cant see that your spending habits are any of their business ! And if the message hasnt yet got home to them, that there simply are not enough jobs for those people applying for them - that is very worrying indeed.

 

I think you do need to put on your log that you are spending X amount of time completing their admin requirements and X amount of time spent travelling to and from any place that is relevant to your Job seeking.

[Chester6]

I cant see that your spending habits are any of their business ! And if the message hasnt yet got home to them, that there simply are not enough jobs for those people applying for them - that is very worrying indeed.

 

I think you do need to put on your log that you are spending X amount of time completing their admin requirements and X amount of time spent travelling to and from any place that is relevant to your Job seeking.

 

Luckily - the guy was talking to me, they were 2 or so meters away and I over heard it all

I thnk the message this one has is that the jobcentre gves you marvellous opportunities like WP, NEW DEAL etc and it's your fault if you don't succees

 

I think their rationale for the money is they pay you to jobseek - as my one whined at me whilst throwing her toys out of the pram and she must be mid 30s to 40

[jasta11]

I'm still technically on the PWP - even though it's now been more than 6 months. They admit they haven't a clue what to do next so they're just leaving things the same. No big deal in my case as I was fortunate enough to get a really decent advisor who could see I needed no extra help so didn't try to push me onto useless courses.

 

My JS Agreement was increased from 3 jobs a week to a whopping 5 (got off lightly there, methinks) and the usual 'check UJ a few times every week' thrown in too. Only see my advisor once a month for a very brief chat so in all honesty I can't complain about anything. Just a shame I can't see this advisor on my normal signing days too.

 

The whole PWP seems very broad though; I've read of people being given a horrendous amount of extra stuff to do. As I've said before, if you can show them you're already well organised and anticipate their questions - and have the answers ready - it needn't be too bad. You need to convince them why you don't need to do this or that and hope the advisor is reasonable about it.

[Chester6]

I think you struck lucky as how they proceed varies from one to another

[jasta11]

I think you struck lucky as how they proceed varies from one to another

 

Yes, it's tricky to know exactly what attitude to take at that first PWP meeting - if you say 'Oh, the 2 year WP didn't help me at all' then they may want you to go on more courses which will help you. On the other hand, if you said 'Oh, the WP really helped me a lot' they might send you on more courses because they think it's working!

 

Tread carefully!

 

The advisor definitely is a big part of it; a fair one will treat you realistically, but if you get a 'jobsworth' - perhaps under pressure from the boss - then expect anything.

[Shendor]

I was on the two year work programme through Inge(ni)us b***ards. I finished last October and since then the JCP doesn't seem to know what to do with me (for which I am actually very grateful) I sign on once every two weeks and this consists of a different advisor each time, who looks at my donald duck job applications - literally sometimes I'll write Donald@Duck.com - position applied for Chicken sexer) and they sign me. Done and dusted in under two minutes. I don't mean to sound glib, but I'm SO grateful after going through the mincer at Ingeus that the JCP seem to have given up on me as a lost project so far. I'm left free to apply for REAL jobs rather than jump through all the training hoops.

The whole system seems rotten from the top down to me. I don't even blame the depressed JCP drones or the stressed and bitter advisors at Ingeus who go through the motions. It's all about targets and getting money for the top of the pyramid, whilst those at the bottom on the front line are not really doing any better than the clients (me) that they see.

What I find truly incredible is that to get my £70pw pittance JSA whilst at Ingeus I had to work harder to keep one step ahead of them and show I was fulfilling their arbitrary mandates than I ever did when I was in full-time employment on £450 a week!

Edited March 21, 2014 by honeybee13

[Chester6]

Lucky - many go through them with a fine tooth comb, I have been warned there's a possibility of sanctions for not dating every row or writing stuff that was accepted downstairs

[Shendor]

Lucky - many go through them with a fine tooth comb, I have been warned there's a possibility of sanctions for not dating every row or writing stuff that was accepted downstairs

 

Totally agree. I don't take it for granted at all. I'm in London though where bewillderbeast roam freely, so they have easier fish to fry to hit their sanctions targets, so seem to leave me pretty much alone. (So far)

Edited March 21, 2014 by Shendor

[Jmulv]

Interesting good to hear feedback about PWP,

 

Whilst I realise it seems to vary greatly it's good to see what people have ACTUALLY been experiencing. I'll of course keep this thread updated as I move along with PWP.

 

I have my next advisor meeting on Tuesday, no idea what for next. Then apparently i'll be assigned to a proper PWP advisor and still have to continue signing on. Hopefully it won't be every week.... and yes that is my worry the fine tooth combing of everything I do. I apply for jobs what more can I do? i've no doubt they will try throw out sanctions for not checking UJ or something silly and if you don't write down hours or detail it enough.

 

That's why I made this thread so people can learn what to watch out for. But so far you guys are luckily not getting a major grilling.

[jasta11]

Lucky - many go through them with a fine tooth comb, I have been warned there's a possibility of sanctions for not dating every row or writing stuff that was accepted downstairs

 

This is what annoys me constantly - every advisor should be singing off the same hymn sheet but we all know they aren't. What's perfectly acceptable to one is not what is acceptable to another.

 

This nit-picking by them is why I use Reed and CV-Library - not so much because they're any good but simply because every job you apply for is listed and dated and a print-out of the 'My Applications' section contains all the hard evidence the JC need. Make it a point to always click on a couple of vacancies every day - including weekends - from both sites and at the end of the fortnight you have at least 50 jobs applications to show them, all nicely detailed and dated.

 

It's the quantity they're after, not the quality - they usually just glance at them. If I'm in a bad mood I make them sign and date every sheet as being acceptable

 

I'm actually thinking of adding a line to every page of evidence I submit saying something like 'I hereby certify that the Jobseekers Agreement requirements have been met for this period *signed & dated by advisor*.'

[Chester6]

It's normally every week but if they are busy it'll be either fortnightly or you just sign on - whichever comes first

[jasta11]

I have my next advisor meeting on Tuesday, no idea what for next. Then apparently i'll be assigned to a proper PWP advisor and still have to continue signing on. Hopefully it won't be every week....

 

The PWP advisors I've seen are far more easy going and pleasant than the regular 'signing on' clerks. I think in some respects all they're really doing is just checking on you and being seen to be doing something with you. If you come across as being organised and doing all you can to find work (or at least looking like you are) then the interviews are a formality.

 

I still see claimants turning up for their interviews with no jobsearch evidence and a surly manner - definitely not the way to go.

[Chester6]

It's been the opposite apart from one guy who was decent

 

Many here have no people skills and are bullying petty and useless and trying to actively sanction you

I have heard the word "sanction" more with them in the past 5 or 6 months then the previous 2 years of WP

[Jmulv]

This is what annoys me constantly - every advisor should be singing off the same hymn sheet but we all know they aren't. What's perfectly acceptable to one is not what is acceptable to another.

 

This nit-picking by them is why I use Reed and CV-Library - not so much because they're any good but simply because every job you apply for is listed and dated and a print-out of the 'My Applications' section contains all the hard evidence the JC need. Make it a point to always click on a couple of vacancies every day - including weekends - from both sites and at the end of the fortnight you have at least 50 jobs applications to show them, all nicely detailed and dated.

 

It's the quantity they're after, not the quality - they usually just glance at them. If I'm in a bad mood I make them sign and date every sheet as being acceptable

 

I'm actually thinking of adding a line to every page of evidence I submit saying something like 'I hereby certify that the Jobseekers Agreement requirements have been met for this period *signed & dated by advisor*.'

 

This is why i made this thread, because like you said from one to the next things can differ and you can end up sanctioned. Another reason I don't like UJ you see, they use it to effectively spy on you and I don't want to give them more ways to say oh look you didn't do that thing sanction.... even if you have applied for jobs and provided sufficient evidence.

 

Also why I was concerned by the UJ point on my claimant commitment, technically if I don't check UJ they can sanction me, at least that's how I see it.

 

They also havn't changed my Jobseekers agreement, it say's it is still same as it was when I first claimed which is like 3 jobs a week lol. I mean I do apply for more anyway but that was interesting thing I noticed.

[essexmat]

My 'adviser' at INGEUS actually said to my face "there is not much we can do with you as you are job ready so simply carry on what you are doing and something will happen" They have realised I do not need help with my CV (done professionally) and I even wrote a covering letter for a job with my adviser last week who said it was spot on for the advertised job. I need no help with interview skills as I have been interviewed many times in front of panels of people as well as interviewed candidates myself. Basically my time there is pointless as I am set up fully at home with IT to apply for jobs properly and have my own folders set up for applications, letters and CV's. The reason I have been out of work for just over a year is not because I am not trying or being lazy but because THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH JOBS and I reckon most of the ones I apply for are fake of auto-rejected.

 

I am now on my 5th visit to INGEUS and my 'adviser' puts me down for fortnightly appointments as any more than that is pointless as she knows how committed I am as my diary/tracker is in WORD, in a smart table with full contact details, a column/row for each date I have done something and around 15-20 applications per fortnight some taking 2-3 hours to do because I actually do want the job rather than applying for the sake of it.

 

These WP schemes have been set up as a tick box exercise and should be for people that need the additional support. People who are job ready should simply be allowed to sign on every fortnight and be allowed to get on with looking for work as they are the ones (like me) that want to work and get off this inhumane system of JSA and WP providers.

 

As (so far) they have left me alone as I really think they are struggling to know what to do with me I treat it as a free day out in town paid for by INGEUS as they pay for travel. Go for coffee, some lunch and get the fare paid and simply go for my 30 min appointment, nod my head blah blah blah and get out for another 2 weeks.

[Beatrice Bee]

Read the attached case law to have evidence and understand that by law you do not have to do the number of steps and each activity listed in your Jobseeker's Agreement.

 

A print out given to the JCP manager in case your adviser is troublesome will save you from a sanction for "not actively seeking employment".

 

I've been on PWPS for two months now and you need to know the law and their internal guidance / policy to save yourself from unfair sanctions.

 

This case law made my day. Save the file now in case you can not find this thread later.

 

CJSA/1814/2007

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]49809[/ATTACH]

[Beatrice Bee]

In CJSA/1814/2007 Mr Commissioner Williams held that taking three adequate steps per week which give you the best prospect of finding employment is enough by law: the DWP's decision to sanction for not doing what is agreed in Jobseeker's Agreement was overturned.

 

JCP staff is not likely to know case law and they get bonuses for sanctioning you so it is your job to inform them and retweet this file all around Britain to prevent unfair sanctions.

 

Seen it on RightsNet that Agreement has no real legal status and at appeals they use CJSA/1814/2007 to knock down sanctions for not actively seeking employment.

 

You got written evidence that you took your three adequate weekly steps to secure employment and you have knowledge of the above law and convincing power / rhetoric abilities to talk advisers / JCP managers out of referring you for sanction doubt: you will keep your JSA allowance.

[Shendor]

These WP schemes have been set up as a tick box exercise and should be for people that need the additional support. People who are job ready should simply be allowed to sign on every fortnight and be allowed to get on with looking for work as they are the ones (like me) that want to work and get off this inhumane system of JSA and WP providers.

 

Amen to that! Agree totally.

[jasta11]

Read the attached case law to have evidence and understand that by law you do not have to do the number of steps and each activity listed in your Jobseeker's Agreement.

 

A print out given to the JCP manager in case your adviser is troublesome will save you from a sanction for "not actively seeking employment".

 

I've been on PWPS for two months now and you need to know the law and their internal guidance / policy to save yourself from unfair sanctions.

 

This case law made my day. Save the file now in case you can not find this thread later.

 

CJSA/1814/2007

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]49809[/ATTACH]

 

That's an excellent document - I've added it to my collection. We all know how ambiguous the JC can be when 'inventing' JS Agreements and it's high time they were taken to task about it. Fortunately my own JSAg only contains about 3 activites anyway but I'll be quoting this letter if they ever try and increase it.

 

The wording of my own JSAg actually doesn't require me to apply for jobs if you interpret it at face value. It merely asks me to 'look' or 'check' or 'use'.

[Lorise]

I am on month 8 after the work programme, I attend the job centre on my sign on days to which I also see my advisor (if you can call them that? ) my advisor is okay...ish, they have their moments when you can tell their boss is on their back as that is when she tries to get me on another course, like this week when I signed on she told me her boss is on her back to get things moving and she is trying to get me to go on a 3 week full day course to which I will get a guaranteed job interview at the end of it (it's a job I want guaranteed not interviews I can get them myself)......this is the same course she sent me on at the beginning of this year which I couldn't do as had just had surgery and the guy running the course said no days could be missed and I still had follow up appointments with the hospital. Again the day this course starts this time, I have a hospital appointment, she said she needs proof of this and needs to see my hospital letter (even though the course isn't mandatory until you are signed up on it (which I am not) my advisor and I both had the same kind of surgery (in fact me telling her about mine, made her go ask her GP about her problem) she let me have 4 days off sick to recover from my surgery, she took two weeks.....I was made to travel in to sign on while still recovering from the operation.

 

 

I now have just found out I have Vertigo and when I mentioned this to my advisor, she looked at me as if I was making it up and asked how I had got it.....now I am no Doctor but even I know you don't catch Vertigo so how she expected me to answer that I don't know.

She also told me that at the end of this month, they are changing the rules and post work programme claimants will either have to come and sign on daily or do community work ( I know we have all heard this rumour for a while yet she said it is starting end of month?) no idea if this is true of just a scare tactic on her part to try and get me to agree to go on courses etc.

[essexmat]

Come in and sign on daily? Yes, very productive when searching for work. Presumably they will also be paying your 5 days a week return fares to do this? If not then tell them to stick it (in a more polite manner of course)

 

As for community work, well don't you know how beneficial it will be for you to stand in a charity shop watching old hags rummaging through other people's junk? Yes, it is a great incentive to get you back to work, all heil our great leader IDS!

[Lorise]

Come in and sign on daily? Yes, very productive when searching for work. Presumably they will also be paying your 5 days a week return fares to do this? If not then tell them to stick it (in a more polite manner of course)

 

As for community work, well don't you know how beneficial it will be for you to stand in a charity shop watching old hags rummaging through other people's junk? Yes, it is a great incentive to get you back to work, all heil our great leader IDS!

 

 

 

 

The funny thing is I did voluntary work few years back, worked for a year and a half for free, the JC made me leave in the end as they said it got in the way of me looking for paid work....fast forward few years and now they want us all to do that.....plus if we have to sign on daily, it will cost them a hell of a lot more for all our travel expenses, it would be nearly £4 a day for my fares. how does IDS think that is a good way to save on welfare (he is so deluded)

[honeybee13]

Matt, that's not a very kind way of describing either the staff or the customers of charity shops.

 

I think they have their place, especially as a form of recycling in this day and age. Have you ever been to one?

 

If I see this again, I shall remove it.

 

HB