Chip and Pin!!

[Guest Alison82]

A friend and I was having and email conversation the other day after I experince fraud. She said how she was watching a tv programe and it reveled the tricks som fraudsters use

 

..........They use this little swipe machine then watch you enter your pin.

 

1. the waitress had it round her ankle. When she took card pretended to drop it and when she bent down swiped it then watched customer enter pin.

 

2. Hid it in her apron pocket. Pretended the machine wouldn't read it and then pretended to rub it on apron (but swiped it instead).

 

3.Just had swipe machine at side of apron (underneath) and just swiped card when customer wasn't looking.

 

4. Same as above but she hid it in her sleeve.

[judocol]

Hi there, I have myself been a victim of chip and pin and I am currently going through small claims on the basis that the consumer credit acts says that if the card was used as a credit token and not in the possession of the card holder then the maximum liability is £50.00

[meagain]

Of course, the bank will tell you that this is overruled by some other bit of law, or your contract. Which is of course, complete rubbish - statute law trumps everything.

[buzby]

Ever had a feeling that this Forum is gonig to get even more popular as the months go on...?

[royboy68]

Just a little aside to the chip and pin v signature. One of my ex girlfriends had my signature card with her (for totaly innocent reasons) She went into a large retail store and pulled out the wrong card and signed her own name. Now i know some of you will be thinking i should keep away from the dubious looking girls but im sure the pair of 34HHH she has would have pointed to the sales person she wasnt a fella. Still took it though.

[buzby]

I did the same thing (Mother's card and otherwise identical). No wonder the banks want to switch to PIN!

[royboy68]

I feel safer with the chip after that after all it was signed with the completely wrong name and by a member of the opposite sex even though it clearly says Mr on the card

[Movingon]

Every time this happens, cause a REAL STINK. Demand to know why they haven't checked your signature, and produce the correct card. Call for managers, say you're going to call the Police, etc etc etc. We're fighting for more security here; so do it like you mean it!!

[buzby]

But as we know in the real world, the police won't care unless you're actually committing the fraud. Then the sdtaff will just walk away claiming they've enough to do.....

[meagain]

But as we know in the real world, the police won't care unless you're actually committing the fraud.

 

That, or you exceeded the speed limit on the way to the police station. Why are we even paying for them on top of our council tax if all they're going to do with it is terrorise drivers and shoot innocent people?

[buzby]

It's a job...?

[meagain]

In that case, someone else can pay for it. If I'm going to pay for a "police force", I damn well expect something that will do something when I report a crime.

[mailmannz]

Anyone who says that it's easier to forge their signature than it is to obtain and remember a four digit number needs to change their signature. Accurately and consistently forging a good signature needs hours and hours of practice and much patience. A signature forger is also often unaware that the retailer is watching them sign; if it looks unnatural or if there are unnatural pauses while they're signing they can alert the authorities via their push-button very quickly... and the signature will be very carefully scrutinised in these circumstances. A four digit number? Most people don't cover their fingers while they type it in; in fact older people (I've noticed) tend to press each button carefully and slowly, peering at the keypad from a distance so that they can see it... meantime the bloke stood behind them is making notes... all too easy.

Im sorry to disagree with you but the above is "hog wash" (said in the nicest possible way).

 

My wife uses my card and has signed my signature a number of times when using it at a shop that doesnt do pin numbers yet and she has NEVER been questioned about it.

 

In fact the first time she did it was by accident as she had my card but was meant to be using hers.

 

The fact is Chip and Pin is more secure and safer than signing. In fact when was the last time you were asked to sign a receipt twice because the first time it didnt look right?

 

Regards

 

Mailman

[meagain]

In fact when was the last time you were asked to sign a receipt twice because the first time it didnt look right?

 

Happens to me quite a bit. Not necessarily signing the receipt twice, but sometimes providing a second sample on a slip of paper (being sure that I'm not pressing on anything that would leave an impression for them). This is because I have a "big" signature which doesn't translate well to the "small" panel on the card. I was asked to sign my latest account application twice, because my signature left the generously-sized box from which a scan would be taken.

[Movingon]

It's not hogwash if you protect your own money. If the retailer doesn't check your signature, shout at him to check your bloody signature. It only takes a few yellings and perhaps a complaint to the head office of the organisation concerned before they take you at least a little bit seriously.

 

I am deadly serious about C&P being downright dangerous and I don't take kindly to people calling my words "hogwash". There is no "nice way" to say "you're talking crap", so don't try and butter it up.

[mailmannz]

I am deadly serious about C&P being downright dangerous and I don't take kindly to people calling my words "hogwash". There is no "nice way" to say "you're talking crap", so don't try and butter it up.

 

Well then without sounding harsh you are ignorant.

 

The numbers prove C&P is safer than signature.

 

Mailman

[Guest Battleaxe]

Over in OZ and Kiwiland they have had chip and pin for some twenty five years. I have always used chip and pin and NEVER in either country have experienced the problems with C & P that has happened over here. In fact I still use the very first Pin number issued to me.

 

For some reason they use a different system over here which open to abuse.

 

On the subject of C & P, the system used back home for transferring funds is EFTPOS, the minute your transaction is approved,i.e the terminal signals approved, the money is immediately on it's way from you account to the merchant/traders account. none of this crap of waiting up to days for the money to be transferred. Same for cheques, the cheques are cleared overnight, this is why we never had a problem with the bank. We knew immiediately what our balance was. Oh, I might mention also the Direct Credit system. You set it up to pay your bills, and your bank credits the named trader with the money on the date your stipulate. No charge for this service either. I never needed a cheque book or have the need to carry cash. I never had a default against my name.

So back to C & P, again because England does it's own thing and never learns for countries which have a GOOD track record, there will always be room for fraud.

Oh BTW , every hole in the wall has a camera which works and guess what, you do get your photo taken every time you perform a transaction at the hole in the wall. If there is fraud, the photgraph is the evidence.

 

The other thing, your photo is on your card. What more identification is needed. There was no way i could use MOTH's card or he mine.

[Movingon]

Well then you are ignorant.

 

The numbers prove C&P is safer than signature.

 

Mailman

 

Have a care.

 

The "numbers" are compiled by financial institutions who now blame all instances of fraud on the card user. Without fail. Unless it's contested of course. So - yes, the fraud figures are far better because now the banks can say "Ah, this wasn't fraud, the card user gave their PIN away or had bad security", whereas before it was obviously someone forging a signature or using social engineering to divert the cashier from checking the signature, and the banks would have to pay out far more often on Fraud instances.

 

So - who's ignorant? The one who ignores the parts of the evidence which don't suit his argument.

[Movingon]

The other thing, your photo is on your card. What more identification is needed. There was no way i could use MOTH's card or he mine.

 

NOW we're talking security. Just a PIN on it's own is NOT IDENTITY, and it's NOT Authentication. It's simply a cursory check. Cameras in holes in the wall don't matter here, because as I said above the banks assume that the cardholder's security is bad if a fraud is committed anyway; so even if there is a photo of the offender, it's the cardholder's fault so the offender doesn't come into the equation.

 

The banks haven't been tested in court over this by the way; and in my opinion if you took them to court and said "regardless whether this person obtained my PIN, he did not have permission to take my money, and he intended to deprive me of it", then a theft conviction could theoretically be proven.

[Guest HUSBANDKHAN]

i went to asia this year. i tried to wd 1300 over 3 weeks. only one bank coughed up £200 i asked. when i returned i found tht where i had not recieved the money the banks had debited it anyway for the sake of it. i complained and after 5 weeks the bank coughed up. it was a chip and pin card i used.

[wasimm]

What i have always found amazingly stupid is how the banks always attempt to blame you if your pin has been compromised. For example, you could have been a victim of someone looking over your shoulder, a device that is overlayed ontop of the terminal, a camera which is positioned above the machine/atm.

 

Even chips can be cloned. why the banks have a chip & pin = you formula, i dont understand.

 

What if the magnetic swipe was cloned and ur pin noted by one of the above methods, and the culprit decided to withdraw money from a cashpoint? the banks would insist it is your fault, but even the banks know these methods are possible, happening and a current risk.

 

Why should you be blamed for high-tech organised crime? Take them to court.

[meagain]

Also, make formal complaints to just about everyone you can. Remember that if the bank insists that it is your liability, they are aiding and abetting this high-tech organised crime.

[wasimm]

True, whats worrying is that the banks advise people of "things that dont look right at an atm", like a device that may be attached to it. So they DO KNOW about these phishing methods. Why always blame the customer then? Basic practices, ok, but do they expect everyone to be a security expert? How many different atm designs have you seen? how do you know the new "logo" ontop of your atm keypad is not a hidden camera?

[JimmyTheOne]

If you have any issues over PINs then Bin them! Get yourself Chip & Signature Cards Credit Cards. If you need plastic for easy access to cash keep one and one only Debit or Savings card to use with a PIN (enables ATM access). Only use this card at ATMs, believe it or not it's safer than using a PIN in a shop. (Onlookers can only view your PIN from 180 degrees, vice 360. You can check the ATM yourself for odd or lose fittings, or only use ATMs in branch.

 

If you want a smile have a look at the BSIA (Security Industries) adivce on Chip & PIN pad sightings and CCTV. Methinks the pin pad shown on the front cover requires a third hand to shield it from prying eyes, most major retailes pads are similar.

 

Chip & PIN Security - guidance for businesses IMHO the Post Office are the only organisation who provide PIN pads that are almost fit for purpose.

[buzby]

The fact is Chip and Pin is more secure and safer than signing. In fact when was the last time you were asked to sign a receipt twice because the first time it didnt look right?

 

Secure and safer for whom? The banks? Certainly not the cardholder! You appear to be prepared to be happy to agree to any and all debits made from your card - whether you actually made them or not - simply because the debit had the correct PIN number attached. I might be happy with a 10 digit PIN of my choosing, but 4...? Not a chance. That's why I've retained the right to sign. I can always challenge a signature that is incorrect, a correct PIN cannot be, unless the banks agree to it - and I'm not falling into that trap.

 

As for folk signing in your stead - hey, if the shop are as careless as that, that's their look-out, and it doesn't affect me either.