Summons for using a found freedom pass

[BazzaS]

Actually I have a question. If you went back to 30 years ago, would you still choose to be a prosecutor? It doesn't seem to be a nice and creative job to me!

 

What an idyllic world you must inhabit, where police, ticket inspectors and prosecutors aren't needed, or are looked on as "not nice" and "not creative".

Presumably that imaginary world is idyllic because you are the only person in that world stealing ("theft by finding") someone's freedom pass and attempting to use it fraudulently.

 

It appears you still feel you have been "hard done by", so I fear OC's superb reply may not change your viewpoint.

OC's reply is worth reading in full, though I've not quoted it in full.

 

You state that you feel the role is not 'nice and creative'. Well sadly, not all jobs can be nice all the time.

........

Of around 20,000 reports that pass through our offices alone each year, only around a quarter ever receive a summons.

..........

The ones who end up facing a Court are usually those who deserve to be prosecuted because of the serious nature of the offence, or they have committed a clear criminal offence and either repeatedly do so or, will not accept that the rule applies to them.

 

An excellent post.

I might not have been so restrained if it were me replying ..... Then again I suspect an experienced prosecutor learns not to rise to the bait?

[HelenKH]

The education shouldn't destroy people'f future. I did whatever I could to solve the problem. That was a mistake that happened in less than 1 minute and I think fi you want to educate somebody, you don't need to ruin his future to teach something to him. You need to give him a chance at least once. Even the drug dealers get conditional discharge. The witness lied about my card. I had my own card but he had written I didn't and he can't remember it after so many months. I didn't say the job is not nice and creative because of what happened to me. I always have thought like that. There is a book written by some people and the prosecutors have to follow that even if the conditions are different. What was the point that LU ruined my life? Why didn't they give me the chance to learn what they refer as education? I don;t believe they were fair on me. The first set of judges said this was a genuine mistake so we need to go to trial. That is why we went on trial. LU has opened a business. By the way, my charge wasn't theft by finding. My charge was sth else. Why do you make it up? why do you twist the facts to prove you are right? Everybody makes mistake and there should be a chance to learn by not with a dark future. You ...

[Consumer dude]

People often take the high moral ground when they have the law on their side..

[Nystagmite]

I think fi you want to educate somebody, you don't need to ruin his future to teach something to him.

 

Weren't you taught as a child not to take something that isn't yours?

[HelenKH]

I was taught not to take something that is not mine and could be returned to the owner. I was told by LU that PAYG cards are not like cash and is like cash. Haven't you ever found a coin in the street before? Did you ignore it?

[honeybee13]

I was taught not to take something that is not mine and could be returned to the owner. I was told by LU that PAYG cards are not like cash and is like cash. Haven't you ever found a coin in the street before? Did you ignore it?

 

Hello again. I don't know if I should be prolonging this argument, but I would have thought that a Freedom Pass's owner could be traced and have it returned to them.

 

I wonder how the owner of the Freedom Pass [a disadvantaged person] managed, having lost it and then having to wait for a replacement because it wasn't returned?

 

HB

[BazzaS]

By the way, my charge wasn't theft by finding. My charge was sth else. Why do you make it up? why do you twist the facts to prove you are right? Everybody makes mistake and there should be a chance to learn by not with a dark future. You ...

 

I never said you were charged with theft by finding : but by your own admission(s) - had the police been dealing with this rather than TfL : you might well have been.

 

So, what do you feel I've "made up"?.

 

As for "have you ever found a coin in the street?" - the pass you found would have had someone's photocard with it, so could have been returned to them/ TfL. Last time I checked the only person identifiable on coins was Her Majesty the Queen : I'm not sure her staff would want all lost coins sent to them.

 

Where do you draw the line? A wallet with 4 x £1 coins? £5? £20. If its OK to keep £20, how about £50, £100? £1000?. My personal viewpoint is if I can be bothered to pick it up, I can be bothered to hand it in or leave it in a safer & more conspicuous place for its owner.

 

Stop looking for excuses : it is clear you still don't want to accept responsibility for your actions.

You say you wanted 'education' but no criminal record : I fear the educational aspect has already passed you by, as there is little evidence you have learnt the key lesson here.

[Old-CodJA]

The education shouldn't destroy people'f future. I did whatever I could to solve the problem.

 

No you didnt, if you had done what you could to solve the problem you would have picked up the pass, opened it, seen that it belonged to someone else and taken it straight to the RPIs that were obviously close by, because you say that you were reported for attempting to use it, and would have said 'I've just found this, can you get it back to whoever lost it please'.

 

What you did was attepted to use it to travel, not the same thing at all.

 

 

That was a mistake that happened in less than 1 minute and I think fi you want to educate somebody, you don't need to ruin his future to teach something to him. You need to give him a chance at least once. Even the drug dealers get conditional discharge.

 

 

It seems from the evidence that the 'mistake' was that you got caught. You're right, it is not necessary to ruin someones' future to teach them a lesson, but that relies on that person recognising and accepting that they were in the wrong.

 

You have persistently shown that you do not accept that inescapable fact.

 

 

 

The witness lied about my card. I had my own card but he had written I didn't and he can't remember it after so many months.

 

 

 

No-one has disputed that, but it is entirely irrelevant to your criminal act. You acted in the way that you did, you attempted to use the found pass, it was your decision to do so, no-one else's and that attempt to use someone else's pass and not pay your own fare was the criminal act.

 

 

 

I didn't say the job is not nice and creative because of what happened to me. I always have thought like that. There is a book written by some people and the prosecutors have to follow that even if the conditions are different.

 

 

 

It is absolutely clear that the code for prosecutors has been followed, otherwise the case would have been dismissed by the Magistrates at a very early stage.

 

 

 

What was the point that LU ruined my life?

 

 

 

LUL did not ruin you life, if it has been ruined it was you who offended, got caught and paid the penalty.

 

 

 

Why didn't they give me the chance to learn what they refer as education? I don;t believe they were fair on me.

 

 

 

It appears that they did, but throughout you have insisted they were wrong and did not accept that you had committed any offence, therefore you could not be given a chance to make amends.

 

 

 

The first set of judges said this was a genuine mistake so we need to go to trial.

 

 

 

Not so, if the original Court had stated that it was a mistake they would have acquitted you

 

 

That is why we went on trial.

 

 

 

Not so, the reason that you went to trial is because YOU pleaded 'not guilty'

 

 

 

LU has opened a business.

 

 

I'm sorry, but this is the most ridiculous comment that you keep repeating. The law has been in place for 124 years, you broke it, LUL (TfL) did not need to 'start a business' to proceed to prosecution, this is a practice that has been available to all rail operators and used by all of them throughout all of that time.

 

 

 

By the way, my charge wasn't theft by finding. My charge was sth else. Why do you make it up? why do you twist the facts to prove you are right? Everybody makes mistake and there should be a chance to learn by not with a dark future. You ...

 

 

So far as I can see, no-one has ever said that you were charged with theft. So far as I am aware you appear to have been charged with intent to avoid payment of your fare by using a pass issued for the specific use of someone else.

 

This is contrary to Section 5 of The Regulation of Railways Act [1889].

 

 

 

People often take the high moral ground when they have the law on their side..

 

 

Yes, I guess that you are right, but that's probably because the Law is usually framed to make clear what is morally acceptable to society at large

Edited March 3, 2013 by Old-CodJA

[Consumer dude]

Even when the law gets it wrong..

[honeybee13]

Even when the law gets it wrong..

 

What do you mean please, CD?

 

HB

[Old-CodJA]

In this instance I cannot see any evidence that suggests the law was wrong and we need to remember that the only way that we help forum users seeking advice is to stick to the facts relating to their case

 

I am as sure as anyone else that there are laws that may need looking at again.

 

I'm equally sure that this case isn't ome of them. The judgment in Browning & Floyd (1946) is very clear

[Consumer dude]

The law does get thing things wrong where innocent people are made to suffer. I was responding in general turns and that people often take the high moral ground when they have the law on there side even when the law is an ass. Not sure about this particular case though..

[Old-CodJA]

I understand what you are getting at, but that doesn't make the law wrong.

 

What I think you mean is that it may sometimes be applied wrongly.

 

In this case, from what the OP has told us, it certainly was not applied wrongly. The Magistrates have come to that decision at trial of the evidence.

 

I am as sure that anyone can be that any appeal will fall the same way.

[Nystagmite]

Hello again. I don't know if I should be prolonging this argument, but I would have thought that a Freedom Pass's owner could be traced and have it returned to them.

 

I wonder how the owner of the Freedom Pass [a disadvantaged person] managed, having lost it and then having to wait for a replacement because it wasn't returned?

 

HB

 

I seem to remember that it says on the back of the freedom pass to return it if you find it and it gives an address to return it to. The name and photo of the holder is on the front of the pass.

 

I lost my wallet a few years ago, which amongst other things, had my disabled persons bus pass in. I was panicking when I'd realised what had happened. Luckily for me, the person who found my wallet, had gone through it and had found a phone card with my number on. They phoned me and said they've got it and that I can come and collect it tomorrow.

[honeybee13]

That's good to hear, Nystagmite.

[sailor sam]

I only have to read OC's post (#183) to tell me what's gone on here so i'm not going to bother going through the whole thread. It's refreshing to know though, that more and more people are getting caught when abusing an expensive concessionary scheme provided for pensioners and the disabled. The scheme is crippling enough for some LA's without people who have no entitlement to 'free' travel being allowed to abuse it.