Halifax/fraud/inheritance money/internal investigation!!!

[Hacked_Off]

if I switch accounts, though the 7 day switching service, wont any outgoing payments (the unauthorised ones) just continue to go out?

 

is it worth going through the FOS (I already know the answer to this) or just go straight to small claims?

[Hacked_Off]

can anyone direct me towards a relevant LBA?

[fletch70]

If it's going off you debit card i would suggest reporting it as compromised and get a new one. I know not ideal but should stop the aggro

 

Just say you have lost it. never had a problem and always got a new card and number

[Hacked_Off]

Just say you have lost it. never had a problem and always got a new card and number

 

cancelling a card and getting a new one, as far as im aware, does not stop companies taking money.

[fletch70]

All I can say is that it has always worked for me. If a transaction has been authorised prior to the repotying of the loss then it will go through.

 

I cancelled many a card in my time and never had a payment go through that I could certainly say was made after the card was cancelled.

 

As I say...only my experience. I think it might be different if you have a CPA although I am not sure

[Klandestine]

Another £70.00 has gone missing.

 

Does the £70.00 actually show up as debit on your statement?

Or is the missing £70.00 only reflected in your available balance? - in which case no payment has been made and no money has left your account yet which means that no refund can be given because there is nothing to refund. As a law student I would expect you to have a better interpretation of the Payment Services Regulations than most. Nowhere does it state that they have to stop the payments being made. Only that they have to refund you once they have been made.

 

You need to withdraw your consent to any future payments from this loan company - and I would put this in writing.

 

You also need to address the root cause of your problem. How did this loan company get your details? And how did they get your card number to take payments?

 

Good luck, hope you get things resolved.

[dx100uk]

but the customer who's money it is cant access it!!

just as bad

dx

[Klandestine]

but the customer who's money it is cant access it!!

just as bad

dx

 

I agree but unfortunately that is not covered by law.

(This is one of the reasons why people suggest using credit cards - if something goes wrong it's not your money that you don't have access to whilst the situation gets sorted).

[renegadeimp]

Exhaust the complaints procedure before you start issuing LBA's.

[dx100uk]

well I cant see what you are saying a being correct Bmn

 

if that's so then 90% of the refunds given by banks already in the PDL forums are wrong

don't think that many banks would make such a mistake

 

dx

[Klandestine]

I take it you're aware of the difference between your account balance and your available balance and how card transactions work.

 

When you use your card to pay for something usually the retailer will put an authorisation hold for the amount on your account. This "reserves" the amount and is deducted from your available balance but the money hasn't actually left your account yet.

Then at a later point the retailer can actually "claim" the money and it will leave your account and the amount will now appear on your statement - this is the actual payment.

This is why card transactions can take a few days to "appear" on your statement or internet banking.

[dx100uk]

makes no odds

 

go read the PDL forums.

 

numerous examples that they do stop these transactions and make the money available again

esp when the customer has specifically, under the FSA, ruling told the bank to refuse them.

 

THEY did not authorise it.

 

dx

[fletch70]

I think that if for example you have already cancelled a CPA with a bank or can prove you have done it with the PDL then it can be reversed quite easily. Also in this day and age it can take between 1 day and 3 days for the transactions to appear.

 

I am not sure that the PDL forums are the best example as most people seem to only come on when the money has actually been debited from their account

[renegadeimp]

If the CPA was already cancelled and the bank allowed the transaction, then yes, they can cancel it immediately. They do NOT need to wait for the pending charge to fall off, or for it to be confirmed. They can click a button and cancel the transaction 'in transit' . We've advised this many MANY times on here and the bank reluctantly agrees once they see the account holder wont be taken for a fool and they are ready to instigate court action. Especially when the account holder demands names and employee numbers so they can be called as co-defendants.

[Hacked_Off]

Just found a screen shot of me telling the loan company I did not apply for a loan I do not need a loan do not take anymore money from my bank account on the 18th but obviously they have again!!

[renegadeimp]

If an account holder gives an explicit instruction for the bank to cancel a CPA on the account, then the bank are legally obliged to comply fully. Should they allow a transaction based on that CPA, then they are acting unlawfully and must return the account to the state it was in before said transaction occured. We've seen it and advised enough on the PDL forums. Practice > any theory you may have. It is never black and white, especially when you have the FCA backing the account holder up through various summaries and leaflets over the years.

 

lets just end it there, mainly because youve derailed yet another thread.

[renegadeimp]

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/static/pubs/consumer_info/know_your_rights_guide.pdf

[silverfox1961]

Time to close this thread for a little while. It will be open again soon with changes.

[dx100uk]

You can cancel a future payment due on your debit or credit card by telling your bank or card provider.

 

 

But just about every bank and credit card provider in the UK has told customers they cannot do that and given them false information about their rights to cancel payments on credit and debit cards.

 

 

These payments are called ‘continuous payment authorities’ or ‘recurring payments’. I will call them CPAs. They are NOT direct debits or standing orders which are regular payments from your current account and are covered by separate rules. You have always been able to stop a direct debit or standing order just by telling your bank. But until recently CPAs have been very different.

 

 

A CPA is an agreement you make with a retailer, hotel, gym, insurance company, lender or other firm providing you with a service (they are all called ‘merchants’ in the bank jargon). You give the merchant permission to take money from a credit card or a debit card. Even though the debit card money comes out of your current account it is NOT a direct debit – it is a CPA.

 

 

The agreement can be made over the phone and it allows the merchant to take money in the future off your card. You normally have no control over the amount that is taken or when – it can be any amount at any time.

 

 

In some cases these CPAs are a [problem] – you think you are buying one item online only to find that you are committed to paying monthly for years. In other cases payday loan companies will store your details and recover future debts using the original card details. Even subscriptions to gyms, publications or insurance premiums are taken through a CPA because the merchant believes it puts them in control of when the payment is cancelled.

 

 

In the past it has been very difficult to stop these payments. Originally CPAs could only be stopped by the merchant. If you went to your bank or card company it would say that it could do nothing and advise you to contact the merchant to stop the payment. If the merchant refused the bank or card provider would continue to allow the merchant to take your money.

 

 

That changed on 1 November 2009 when a new law came into force. It is in the Payment Services Regulations 2009. It makes it clear that your bank or card provider has to stop the payments if you ask it to do so even if the merchant refuses to cancel it or even if you have not told the merchant.

 

 

If the bank or card provider does not obey your instructions then it has to refund any subsequent payment it allows to be taken from your account. And if a subsequent payment causes you to incur any fees – such as an overdraft charge or a late payment fee – or to lose any interest, then those losses have to be refunded too.

 

 

Despite that change in the law Money Box listeners and my tweeps have reported this week that just about every bank and card provider in the UK has wrongly told them recently that they can only cancel the payment through the merchant. They include Amex, Barclays, Co-operative Bank, First Direct, halifax, HSBC, MBNA, Lloyds, M&S, Nationwide, NatWest, Post Office, RBS, Santander, and Smile.

 

 

Some banks have even advised that the only way to stop the payment is to close the account and cut up the card. Not only is that advice wrong it may not work. Visa and Mastercard can let merchants track you and move the agreement to a card you take out in the future. It has also been known for a bank or credit card provider to try to recover the money – and penalty charges – from customers who have cancelled a card.

 

 

Some banks admit they have given customers the wrong information. Lloyds Banking Group – which includes Halifax and Bank of Scotland – has still not updated the terms and conditions on all its accounts to reflect the new law. And both Lloyds and Santander have admitted that customers have been wrongly advised.

 

 

If you want to cancel a CPA

Tell your bank or card provider that you have a CPA and name the merchant; give any other details you can such as how the payment appears on your statement and, if you know, the dates and times when the payment is normally taken. Tell the bank that you cancel that payment authority with immediate effect. Quote regulation 55 of the Payment Services Regulations 2009.

 

 

You can give this instruction on the phone, through an online message, by letter, or at a personal visit to a branch. It is best to do it in writing but always make a note of the time and date when you give the instruction.

 

 

If a payment from that merchant is taken in future, contact the bank again and say you want that money (and any penalties or losses it may have caused you to incur) refunded immediately under regulation 61.

 

 

If the bank or card provider refuses to do so, or fails to do so after eight weeks, you can take your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk or call 0800 023 4567 from a landline or 0300 123 9 123 from a monthly contract mobile. The fos will most likely take your side in the dispute.

 

 

If you have told your bank to cancel a CPA in the past

If your bank or card provider has failed to act on your instructions to cancel a CPA at any time since 1 November 2009 you should be able to get back all the payments taken from your account since you gave that instruction. The bank or card provider has to refund them to you. You should also get back any penalties that the transaction led you to incur such as an overdraft charge or a late payment fee and any loss of interest.

 

 

The rules depend on when you gave the instruction – it must always be on or after 1 November 2009 – and when the payment was made.

 

 

Payments made in the last 13 months.

Tell the bank or card provider

·That you gave a clear instruction to cancel the payment on a particular date (which must be 1 November 2009 or later)

·That the payment made was after that date and was therefore unauthorised under reg.55(3) and 55(4)of the Payment Services Regulations 2009

·That you are entitled to an immediate refund of the amount and any penalties under reg. 61

·That the event occurred less than 13 months ago as specified in reg.59(a)

 

 

Payments taken between 1 November 2009 and 13 months ago

Tell the bank or card provider

·That you gave a clear instruction to cancel the payment on a particular date (which must be 1 November 2009 or later)

·That the payment was unauthorised under reg.55(3) and 55(4) of the Payment Services Regulations 2009

·That you are entitled to redress under reg. 61

·That under reg.59(2) the thirteen month time limit does not apply because the bank or card provider failed to give you adequate information under Part 5 of the Regulations.

 

 

You should also add that the bank or card provider has a duty to treat you fairly and to give information which is clear, fair and not misleading. When you asked it to cancel the payment it failed to explain your rights correctly thus preventing you from taking the correct action at the right time.

 

 

If the bank refuses take your case to the Financial Ombudsman Service – details above.

 

 

The law

The Payment Services Regulations 2009 www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2009/209/contents/made implemented the EU Directive 2007/64/EC http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...01:0036:EN:PDF

 

 

The Regulations came into force on 1 November 2009. Regulation 55 covers a customer (the payer) consenting to a payment being made and withdrawing that consent. Regulation 55(3)&(4) says

 

 

“(3) The payer may withdraw its consent to a payment transaction at any time before the point at which the payment order can no longer be revoked … (4) …the payer may withdraw its consent to the execution of a series of payment transactions at any time with the effect that any future payment transactions are not regarded as authorised for the purposes of this Part. “

 

 

Regulation 61 makes it clear that where a payment was not authorised the “provider must immediately— (a) refund the amount of the unauthorised payment transaction to the payer;

And must also (b)… restore the debited payment account to the state it would have been in had the unauthorised payment transaction not taken place.”

 

 

In other words it has to refund any penalties that have been incurred.

 

 

The time limit for a refund is set down in regulation 59 which says the customer

 

 

“59(1)…is entitled to redress under regulation 61…only if it notifies the payment service provider without undue delay, and in any event no later than 13 months after the debit date, on becoming aware of any unauthorised or incorrectly executed payment transaction.”

 

However 59(2) states that the 13 month limit may be waived if the provider has not given the relevant information to the customer. That information is set down in Part 5 of the Regulations.

 

 

The FSA guidance

The Financial Services Authority has issued guidance on how the Regulations should be implemented. Its latest published version is dated January 2012. http://www.fsa.gov.uk/static/pubs/ot...oach_jan12.pdf Although this document makes it clear that the customer has the right to withdraw a payment at any time before it is made it does, confusingly, state that “best practice” is “for the customer to be advised that notice of the withdrawal of consent be given to the payee [merchant].”

 

 

Some banks and card providers have taken that to mean that the customer had to do that before the payment would be revoked.

 

 

But the latest draft version of the guidance dated May 2012 http://www.fsa.gov.uk/static/pubs/ot...-psd-apr12.pdf makes it clear

 

 

“with reference to the customer’s right to withdraw consent for a series of payment transactions, clarification that it is not acceptable for the payment service provider to make withdrawal of consent dependent on notice having been given to the merchant.”

 

 

And paragraph 8.132 (p79) now reads

 

 

“However, it is best practice for the customer to be advised that notice of the withdrawal of consent should also be given to the payee, because the PSRs. [Payment Services Regulations] do not address the payer’s underlying liability under the terms of any contract they have signed. For the avoidance of doubt, it is not acceptable for the payment service provider to make withdrawal of consent dependent on notice having been given to the merchant.”

 

 

And this clearer guidance is reflected in the information given to customers on p.15 of this document www.fsa.gov.uk/static/pubs/consumer_info/know_your_rights_guide.pd f

 

 

"Cancelling a regular card payment.

When you give your credit or debit card details to a company and authorise them to take regular payments from your account, such as for a gym membership or magazine subscription, it is known as a ‘recurring transaction’ or ‘continuous payment authority’.

These are often confused with direct debits, but do not offer the same guarantee if the amount or date of the payment changes.

In most cases, regular payments can be cancelled by telling the company taking the payments. However, you have the right to cancel them directly with your bank or card issuer by telling it that you have stopped permission for the payments. Your bank or card issuer must then stop them – it has no right to insist that you agree this first with the company taking the payments.

Be aware, though, that you will still be responsible for paying any money that you owe."

 

Conclusion

Although the banks and card providers claim to have relied on earlier FSA advice they have a duty themselves to obey the law which is clear. You can cancel a continuous payment authority on a debit or credit card simply by telling your bank or card provider.

 

http://paullewismoney.blogspot.co.uk...ts-racket.html

[silverfox1961]

Okay, I have had to unapprove a few more posts. If this bitching carries on then the whole thread will have to be closed permanently.

 

There is obviously a clash of opinion but there is no need to be argumentative about it.

 

I suggest reading up on netiquette.

 

For the posters whose posts have vanished, I apologise as to leave them up would have been very confusing.

[silverfox1961]

Thread re-opened

[renegadeimp]

Ok. Lets go back to basics. hacked_Off. Did you at any time instruct halicrap to cancel the transactions BEFORE they occured, to the creditor. Similar to cancelling a CPA.

[Klandestine]

dx100uk's latest post agrees with what I said - no its does not - dx

 

Despite renegadeimp derailing the thread, the right you have to withdraw you consent for a transaction (i.e. cancel a CPA) was never in dispute.

 

What was in dispute was whether a bank has to remove a card authorisation hold (where the money has not actually left your account yet).

And also whether a bank has to intervene and stop a payment as opposed to just refunding it.

[renegadeimp]

At the risk of getting the thread locked...

 

If the CPA was cancelled, then the transaction should never have happened. As per the link i posted('now deleted due to various comments), it clearly says that if the transaction is allowed to happen when the bank has been instructed to cancel it, they MUST refund it immediately. Not wait a few days for it to fall of, not tell the OP they must contact the creditor and ask them to fax over info. This also applies to ANY transaction that has not been authorised. This is where hacked_off's problem lies and why he is getting so frustrated with halifax. They are simply refusing to adhere to relevant regulation.

 

The same information can be found in the govan's law centre guide to dealing with PDL's.

 

End. Of. Story.

 

 

 

To hacked_off. My advice to you know would be to shut down your halifax account and open an account somewhere else. Should any charges etc be levied on the account, we can help you deal with it as the issue arises. Your main priority now should be to secure your finances, so this cannot happen again.

[Klandestine]

At the risk of getting the thread locked...

 

If the CPA was cancelled, then the transaction should never have happened. As per the link i posted('now deleted due to various comments), it clearly says that if the transaction is allowed to happen when the bank has been instructed to cancel it, they MUST refund it immediately. Not wait a few days for it to fall of, not tell the OP they must contact the creditor and ask them to fax over info. This also applies to ANY transaction that has not been authorised. This is where hacked_off's problem lies and why he is getting so frustrated with halifax. They are simply refusing to adhere to relevant regulation.

 

The same information can be found in the govan's law centre guide to dealing with PDL's.

 

End. Of. Story.

 

 

 

To hacked_off. My advice to you know would be to shut down your halifax account and open an account somewhere else. Should any charges etc be levied on the account, we can help you deal with it as the issue arises. Your main priority now should be to secure your finances, so this cannot happen again.

 

Do you not understand that a card authorisation hold (earmark in Halifax's terms) is not actually a transaction. You can't just choose and use facts as you please.