False/dodgy MOT **** RESOLVED ****

[grahamengineering]

To clarify the legal stance when buying from an auction read this:

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/c_buying_at_auction.pdf

 

The car was sold to the OP in auction format as sold as seen. The OP's beef is with the auction as the seller, not whoever entered it. When you buy at auction you enter into the deal that you accept the auction rules. You have no recourse to complain after. Sorry but that is how it works.

 

Now lets be sensible here sam,

Now there is a surprise! Looks like my bet was right on the money! Well this could certainly change things. Unlike others on here, I don't believe that a trader putting a car through an auction avoids the SOGA. If it were that case, think how many consumers could be ripped off like yourself. I think you should now see what consumer direct/trading standards have to say armed with this evidence Drewmond becasue according to that link I provided the only people which the SOGA dosn't apply to is the auction house, so the trader who put it into the auction can still be liable. TS also should be looking into this trader disposing of cars through the auction that are potentiailly unroadworthy.

 

If you got the same comeback at auction nobody would ever buy from a trader, you would all be down the auctions getting all these fault free cars.

 

Nobody other than possibly the MOT tester if the car is found to have been fraudulenlty MOT'd is guilty of anything. VOSA have no powers to make the tester or the testing station do anything for the OP. They may and rightly should take action if he has MOT'd a non roadworthy car. But proving the vehicle did fail on the day in question can be difficult also.

 

Now even if VOSA do fail the cars MOT after inspection. The OP now has a car he may have to transport back from the testing station and is left with a pile of useless metal costing him £800 ish. He cannot break it if he wishes to take it further. But who can he take the action against? Again I refer you back to the only possibly guilty party, you could try pursuing him through the courts but that will cost the OP money and can take a long time. He may even after all that be told, well you bought at auction sold as seen so you haven't won. He may win, but getting paid is another matter. the defendant may say I can only afford £5 a week. Then after 4 payments not make any more. Then the OP has to go back to court to get a court order. And on it goes....

[oddjobbob]

Sorry to rain on yuor parade but...

 

As far as I an see in the auction leaflet you posted sailor, it says that you lose your rights if the goods are secondhand AND that you attended in person AND were told by way of a notice in their terms and conditions or verbally that SOGA does not apply or that the goods are sold as seen AND that the auctioneer can show it was reasonable. All off these apply in this case, they're 2nd hand, the OP attended the auction, the car was obviuosly sold as seen, there will be a notice that SOGA does not apply to SAS cars and the auctioneer can show it was reasonable as they cannot be expected to warrant an ageing car.

 

Drewmnod will definitely NOT be the first person to have bought a car at auction that has a dodgy MOT and you can bet anything you like that the auction house will have buried in theri terms and conditions that sold as seen means exactly what it says.

 

And aslo, Drewmond, I'm sorry but you cannot show that the seller put the goods into the auction KNOWING that the car was unroadworthy as he (the seller) didn't perform the MOT and will claim that he put it in for MOT, it passed and thats it, ie He is not an MOT tester so cannot be expected to know if they are roadworthy or not.. don't get me wrong he KNEW, oh yes, all day long he KNEW, but proving it? Different ballgame.

 

 

 

Honestly and truly I wish you every success with this, the sooner these charlatans are driven out of business the better, and its possible that you may get some sort of result but the seller is largely covered by the fact that he put it in a sold as seen auction.

 

At the end of the day this case could go anywhere, especially if the seller panics and offers the OP some money back for the dodgy MOT etc, but whether or not it will be to Drews satisfaction is another matter. Which is a shame, dodgy MOTs should be a thing of the past, and sadly they aren't.

[oddjobbob]

Crossed post with Graham... he puts it better than I!

[oddjobbob]

Alos let me be quite clear here, I'm not here to argue with anyone, just being realistic and calling it how I see it. I've been wrong sometimes in the past and I'll be wrong sometimes in the future.

[grahamengineering]

Bob ,Just read your post about Joe Public dropping there tubs of scrap in part ex when they are giving trouble. I'd be interested in Sams take on should same Joe Public be made to pay for the trader to put right these faults?

[oddjobbob]

Graham... As a trader you are duly expected in law to have sufficient mechanical knowledge to know a tu of scrap from a good car.

 

You live and learn.. I sold 5000 cars and quickly learned that there are certain sections of the community (no I won't be naming them or saying anythnig else) that you should NEVER take a px from as they never px their cars until they are worn out.

 

And personally, no, I don't think they should be made to pay... I took it in chop, its my fault.

 

However, as an amusing aside to this, I often remember tkaing in a shed and then 3 weeks later getting the call that something had gone wrong with the car they bought... to which I always said 'I'm glad you called. No problem. Still got yuor car here with the clutch gone on it. So bring my car that I sold you back and take yours away and I'l give you your mnoey back'

 

it never happened btw!

[Drewmond]

If you got the same comeback at auction nobody would ever buy from a trader, you would all be down the auctions getting all these fault free cars.

I'm not after the same comeback as someone who bought at a garage. I just want the person/people responsible for putting a dodgy MOT on a car to be held accountable for their actions.

 

We seem to be going round in circles on this one. Yes I know buying a car from auction is a different ball game. I've already stated that. Yes I know that cars are sold as seen. Yes I know that the auction house will have covered their backsides nicely in their Ts&Cs.

 

But this was not a normal sale of a sub-par car. This was essentially fraud. The car was given a 12months certificate of roadworthiness despite still having all the faults present that less than a month earlier caused it to fail its MOT. I'm not going to fob this car onto someone else to save me the hassle of potentially losing a couple of quid. If the only thing to come from this is that the MOT dealer gets a slap on the wrists then yes I will be disappointed, but at least I tried. If the MOT station gets a fine or worse then I will consider it a result. If I can chase the seller of the car (who lets not forget was trying to sell this car through the classifieds to the general public before it went through an auction) for some money and get back some of the money I've lost, I will be ecstatic! I'm not banking on anything at the moment and I'm fully aware I may end up having to weigh the alpha in for scrap. I want to cause as much bother for them as I can in return for the bother they have caused many others with their dodgy dealing!

[oddjobbob]

Exactly Drew.

 

Altho I do believe Graham's post was directed at auctions in general and not your particular case

Edited January 23, 2012 by oddjobbob
added text

[sailor sam]

Graham & Bob, I don't know why you keep missing it but i'll point it out to you. According to that link I provided (if you read it carefully enough), whenbuying from an auction house you enter into a contract with the OWNER of the car and not the auctioneer. It then folows that if there is a problem, you persue the owner who IF a private individual can only be persued under the SOGA if the car was falsely advertised. However, if the owner is a trader then the normal avenues will be available under the SOGA. As it happens, the OP has now found out that the car was sold via auction by a trader AND this is why I have advised him to clarify his position with TS/Consumer direct. Now when he does that, no doubt he will come back and let us know what they say. Bob, I am a little more impressed with your post (#46) in respect of excepting part exchanges from Joe public. I 100% agree with you there. You have redeemed yourself! However, i am stiil interested to know the opinions of others on advising putting a faulty car back into an auction. When I say faulty, I mean a car which you know would not pass an MOT i.e. unroadworthy.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[oddjobbob]

No I read that sailor and how it reads to me is this... when you buy at auction and SOGA does not apply then that's it, there is nothing further you can do, effectively your rights are signed away by the act of buying at an auction withuot soga... and yes, you CAN sign your rights away in this instance.

 

If SOGA DOES apply at an auction then indeed your gripe is with the seller and NOT the auctioneer.

 

At a car auction , sold as seen means exactly that... if it didn't then everynoe would do what graham says and buy cars from auctions with no faults.. which wont happen.

[ims21]

This may help you

 

Buying second hand cars at auction

 

When you buy a used car at auction you have very limited legal rights. Though the Sale of Goods Act generally applies to cars sold at auction, auction houses are allowed to exclude its main conditions (such as being of satisfactory quality, as described and fit for the purpose) if they put a notice on display in the catalogue.

So make sure you check the auction house conditions before you bid. When you buy at auction, your rights are against the seller, not the auction house.

 

Taken from

 

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-righ...s-your-rights/

 

 

ims

[grahamengineering]

http://www.british-car-auctions.co.uk/PDF/Guide_To_BuyingandSelling_AUG10_V2.pdf

 

That is a link to BCA's auction terms. I suggest you read page 10 Sam.

[MARTIN3030]

Off topic posts removed.

We do not view these as being of any help to the OP,and do not see why his thread should be littered with the posts we have seen.

Site team is also concerned at the frequency of these disruptions despite previous reminders.

Needless to say,patience is wearing thin.

[grahamengineering]

Off topic posts removed.

We do not view these as being of any help to the OP,and do not see why his thread should be littered with the posts we have seen.

Site team is also concerned at the frequency of these disruptions despite previous reminders.

Needless to say,patience is wearing thin.

 

Can you please look at post 52 also then martin. It is rude and insulting towards oddjobbob.

[MARTIN3030]

There is no post 52 atm....and I hope when and IF we get to that again it can be one that will be acceptable.

[oddjobbob]

Also I would say that none of us can make any further comment until such time as the OP has taken legal advice as to his rights or lack of them in this matter.

[oddjobbob]

Yes Sam, I'd already seen it: and its still good advice: but your stance and insistence that the OP has rights against the seller has changed since then, you seem more definite that he can win if he follows what you say, or so it appears to me.

 

Like I already said, we can go no further until the OP lets us know of his rights or lack of them in this case. I must say he appears very sensible and realistic about the whole thing.

[heliosuk]

Anyone for tea?

[sailor sam]

Yes Sam, I'd already seen it: and its still good advice: but your stance and insistence that the OP has rights against the seller has changed since then, you seem more definite that he can win if he follows what you say, or so it appears to me.

 

Like I already said, we can go no further until the OP lets us know of his rights or lack of them in this case. I must say he appears very sensible and realistic about the whole thing.

 

Don't think i've said he will win. What I have said is that he should take advice from TS to see what his options are. (see post #27)

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[sailor sam]

You forgot helios and even the OP himself saying he knows cars at auction are sold as seen.

 

The OP has clicked my reputation button and left a positive comment.. has he done the same for you?

 

Anyway I shall post no more until the OP has been and got proper legal advice and comes back to us.

 

Good idea.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[MARTIN3030]

hi Martin, yes post '#21 is rather offensive too to motor dealers that act quite withni the law of the land.

I think SS would not dispute that there are good and honest car dealers out there.

But lets remember this is a Consumer site,where the focus is on the less honest and desirable ones,as can be seen by looking around at the threads.

We do not give fanfares for honest and decent motor dealers-since this is what should be expected in the first place.

[grahamengineering]

In the interest of fairness though martin. Dont you think it appropriate that sailor sams posts that are insulting towards other members such as bob and I be removed? In the same way that posts that contradict sam are removed?

[sailor sam]

Martin, can you respond to my post #45 please. (well 45 atm at least!)

BTW, i havn't asked for any posts to be removed. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[MARTIN3030]

In the interest of fairness though martin. Dont you think it appropriate that sailor sams posts that are insulting towards other members such as bob and I be removed? In the same way that posts that contradict sam are removed?

 

The reported posts as well as site team observations,have meant that it has not been easy to keep up in real time with the postings.

Indeed while I was taking a few minutes dealing with different complaints,a further 6 posts were made.

[grahamengineering]

The reported posts as well as site team observations,have meant that it has not been easy to keep up in real time with the postings.

Indeed while I was taking a few minutes dealing with different complaints,a further 6 posts were made.

 

I apologise, I appreciate how hard you work. When you do get time both bob and myself would appreciate if you remove the insulting and antagonistic posts made towards us by ss if we are not being given the same opportunity to respond to them.

 

Thanks.