British Gas & Power Flush

[patrickq1]

Thinking that a 30 pound bottle of chemicals will solve sludge in a central heating system shows that you know nothing about this problem or whats required to solve it!

even more amazing when it was BG suggestion in the first place also they condemmened my system when they fitted it only two years before....now then name and address can be supplied or was it a over enthusastic engineer

patrickq1

[jehuty]

A couple of weeks ago i decided to put my heating on after one chillly day. After a few hours i noticed my radiators were stone cold & that my hot water was taking an age to heat up.Called BG, an engineer came out, replaced several parts, pump valves etc still no result, he spent a total of 4 hours here,after he couldn't fix it he said i need a powerflush at £592, I live in a flat by the way. I'm interested to hear your opinions. I don't mind paying this if it will solve the problem. My system is 10 years old now. The only thing I find weird is that he didn't even look at my boiler and to boot i have to wait until next month for this powerflush.Anyone???

[Fed up consumer]

I am so glad i discovered this forum last night and thank you all for loads of advice. I have had BG Homecare agreement for 11 years and have my fair share of horror stories when it comes to their engineers. I must admit they have a fwe excellent engineers who have dealt with my issues professionally and compentantly. i just wish they all were and over the last couple of years I have come across serious incompentancy requiring multiple visits, many lost working hours (on my part) waiting for them to fix their mistakes.

 

Had a visit yesterday as one of my radiators were leaking. Engineer states that radiator in question and another one in the bedroom will need to be repaced. HOWEVER.........as I had another one of my radiators replaced last year, this work will not be covered by the agreement. And as many of you know the good old Powerflush was stated as 'must have'. He quoted GBP383.00 for the radiator installation and wait for it........GBP808.00 for the Powerflush. I was at work while the work was being done but I came home last night to find that we had no heating or hot water, despite the engineer stating that he had checked everything and it was all working.

 

Called british gas and another engineer came out to say that the thermostat had gone and can only be replaced on Monday. So here I sit with these excessive quotations, no heat or hot water until monday!! Grrrr

I called BG today to question these quotations - thanks to all the info on this board I challenged both quotes and so far they have admitted that the replacement of radiators is covered under my agreement and the powerflush quote did seem a bit high for small 3 bed flat with 6 radiators in total and I am expecting a call by Tuesday to review this price.

 

I too wonder about why the powerflush is being sold so hard to all customers - in 11 years I have never been told i need one and every year my annual inspection goes off without a hitch with no requirement for a powerflush. Strange huh?

[slick132]

Hi FEC,

 

Call me cynical, but I think BG offer a very good breakdown cover service at a competative rate.

 

So I think they have to get money back somewhere - charging for work that may really be covered by the service agreement, forcing a boiler change when it could be repaired, forcing expensive power flush, etc.

 

£808 for a PF on a 6 radiator system is outrageous. Although after 11 years, the system may benefit from a PF.

 

Makes you wonder how we all managed before PF'ing was introduced.

[Fed up consumer]

Being a single parent with a young family, the BG homecare agreement has given me peace of mind (mind you that peace is eroding fast!) and like I said I have had some excellent engineers in the past, professional and really helpful - but is too much for consistency in their standard of service? In the last 2 years i have seen a dramatic decline in the quality of service. And each time they mess up its is an absolute nightmare to get a resolution and has cost me money in lost wages waiting around for them to resolve the problems.

 

One example is, last year I was left without a dryer for over a month ( and a 2 month old baby) because the engineer never arrived for the appointment. Each time I called, they would state that he had come but there was no one at home and despite protesting all they could do was reschedule for the following week and on it went until i demanded another engineer take over the job. He turned up promptly on the day and fixed the problem immediately.

 

In regards to the powerflush i now 'require', when BG installed my boiler 6 years ago, they assured me they 'cleaned out' the whole system. How they did it back then, i do not know but surely this would have involved a similar process to a powerflush?

 

British gas make obscene profits each year so if they are demanding their customers have to have these extra services even if they don't need them (and you will see from previous posts this seems to be the pattern), then it amounts to nothing more than daylight robbery!

[Bigmac versus]

Engineers from BG are no different from other big firms, they all have good and bad, the difference is as i see it that BG engineers are under a bonus scheme which is pooled together amongst some 15 or so engineers and when one underperforms then the others suffer hence the pressure applied. This practice is having an effect on BG's reputation and if allowed to continue will be their demise in this field. As for their annual charges for cover I personally find it expensive when compared with others who sometimes actually cover more than BG do.

 

I would ALWAYS advise anyone to have a second opinion regarding their system needing Powerflushed as quite often is the case it simply aint needed.

[slick132]

Hi BigMac,

 

Your (well-informed) comments are interesting.

 

I'd love to know how the BG eng'rs bonuses are worked out. Do you mean they get a bonus for getting a customer to have a power flush, a new boiler, or other items which have to be paid for.

 

The trouble is, when a cust'r is told they need something done, the clear inference is that the service cover will not continue if it's NOT done.

 

Also, if a boiler is "condemned", many cust'rs would just get it replaced out of panic, without realising another company would probably do the work for half the price.

 

Finally, could you please say whether you think power flushing is a necessary and vital part of CH maintenance nowadays.

 

Good to see ya !

[Bigmac versus]

Hi BigMac,

 

Your (well-informed) comments are interesting.

 

I'd love to know how the BG eng'rs bonuses are worked out. Do you mean they get a bonus for getting a customer to have a power flush, a new boiler, or other items which have to be paid for.

 

Yes except any contractors who are excempt from this bonus system.

 

The trouble is, when a cust'r is told they need something done, the clear inference is that the service cover will not continue if it's NOT done.

 

Also yes this is a common practice although that dosent mean BG have to do it as far as I know.

Also, if a boiler is "condemned", many cust'rs would just get it replaced out of panic, without realising another company would probably do the work for half the price.

 

This is a big problem and covers many situations which I will touch on briefly.

Quite often parts for boilers are obsolete but what is being missed is how long they have been obsolete for take Mrs Black for example who has paid £165 per annum for 8 years and has only recently asked BG to come out for a boiler breakdown only to find the part is obsolete and a new boiler is required. She then decides who fits the boiler and gets it done but my point is if that boiler is obsolete and has been for 4 of those years then Mrs Black has paid 4 years of cover when BG couldnt fix it should it break down, it is my opinion that a refund of those years the boiler has been obsolete should be returned excluding the costs of their annual service. I have in the past advised customers to do this and the ones I know that have taken it further have had some success.

 

Then the other side of the coin is when the customer decides to get a quote from BG for new boiler or system, say £4500 as an example and then contacts a local company who quote £2750 for whatever reason they go with BG only to find the work is contracted out and it is the other company who quoted £2750 who is fitting it, I have heard from people this has happened to on quite a few occassions.

 

Finally, could you please say whether you think power flushing is a necessary and vital part of CH maintenance nowadays.

 

Well if the system is chemically treated from the off and well maintained then it should never foul up, the problem is many werent treated years ago. There are times when systems could benefit from a PF but they are not to be taken as gospel when advised from BG due to the above stories. Always seek a second opinion in this instance as some PF's I have seen done by BG are done on aged systems that will be needing renewed in the near future or when there is simply a choked feed usually at the point of connection to the system which would be far cheaper to repipe than PF (we all know thats the likely problem dont we engineers)

 

 

Good to see ya !

 

Thx Slick

[Binary1]

Hi

My sister decided to have her boiler changed in June of this year. Although her old boiler was working well, she decided she wanted a more modern updated boiler. BG came and done an estimate to install a new boiler ( Over £3000) and to fit a new pump which is located upstairs in her airing cupboard and a new thermostat located in her lounge.

BG came in June, replaced the boiler and pump, apparently tested it all to make sure all was working and off they went.

The next day I called to see her and I said "is all working OK, and lets give it all a whirl". I put the boiler and hot water on and TWO of the rads didn't come on and stayed cold. I thought, how come the day before they had told her it was all working fine when the following day it clearly wasn't.

We called Homecare as she had taken out a contract with the boiler etc and a week later they came and did a 'powerflush'.

They still couldnt get the two rads to work ( which had always worked fine before they changed the boiler).

That afternoon after they had gone ( one of the hottest days of the year) we noticed it was very warm in doors and low and behold all the heating for the whole house was on ( except the two rads).

I went to the control box and it stated all heating and water was off !

We tried everything to try to turn off the heating but couldn't so called Homecare and they said switch if off at the mains till we get there.

When they arrived they looked at the new thermostat and told us the engineer had wired it wrong! They rewired it and it worked as it should.

NOW... after 5 more visits from BG to try to get the two rads working and doing two powerflushes they still couldn't get the rads to work and suggested the pipes to the rads need replacing which meant having to have piping on the lounge wall ( which at the moment all the pipes are hidden). My sister said she does not want pipes on display in her lounge and to get lost, bearing in mind it is BG/Homecare who have messed up her heating in the first place.

Oh I also foget to add, when they left after one of their visits I noticed upstairs on the ceiling water dripping through. I was panic stricken, so called her neighbour in to go into the loft to see where it was coming from and low and behold, when they replaced the pump in the airing cupboard four weeks before, they had tightened the pipe in the airing cupboard and the overflow pipe in the loft which is attached to it had moved and was not above the tank so all the water was just spouting through the ceiling!

They had to come back to reposition the pipe where it was before they got their useless hands on it.

Its now 4 months since they fitted the boiler,pump etc. They have not been back to get the ceiling assessed for repair as they promised either.

Although they said the rads need repiping I have gone round all the rads bleeding them and balancing them myself, and have got the two rads working. NOW considering BG/Homecare are supposed to be the experts, and considering they should know what they are doing, a woman ( me) who has no gas experience, no knowledge of ' how to fix cold rads' has managed to get the rads working which those bafoons could not do ( and I didn't even need to replace the pipes as they said it needed!!!)........

They havent been paid yet for the boiler etc as my sis told them they wouldnt get anything until she is completely satisfied with it all. As they haven't even had the decency to get the ceiling done do they really expect to be paid yet??

What do you think we should do now. They called yesterday about payment and my sis asked about the ceiling, they said ( yet again) they would get back to her....... we arn't holding our breath!

[Bigmac versus]

It sounds a nightmare, basic checks (balancing system) but added with all the other stuff going on including the overflow pipe situation what other conclusion can you come to other than sheer incompetence.

[jjjack]

Hi Bigmac (and others)

 

Great information! I'd welcome your thoughts on a simialr issue.

 

Following an engineer's visit, I've been told to expect a letter from the breakdown insurers to say they won't cover my central heating system any more until a sludge problem is sorted. (It's not BG Homecare - but someone similar.) I'm not sure exactly what they will say yet, but here's some background:

 

I think I've just had what you describe as a "choked feed". The engineer drained the system to fit a new zone valve, and the system would not re-fill. The engineer correctly guessed the exact point of the pipe blockage (where the cold fill connects to the system) - he cut the pipe and cleaned out copper coloured gunk, and now it's refilled OK.

 

The 2 port zone valve was being replaced because it wasn't closing fully. The drained water was a little black. And over a few years, 2 trvs have stuck shut. One small bathroom rad (out of eight) does have a coldish spot at the bottom. The system is probably 12 to 15 years old. (No boiler banging or other symptoms.)

 

Given this limited info, do you think that a power flush is likely to be required?

 

The engineer was extemely helpful, but didn't seem to want to comment on the question of what remedial work should be done. (He was a sub-contractor - my guess is that he knows the breakdown people will try to make me pay for lots of expensive stuff, and he would get into trouble if he contradicted them - so he prefered to say nothing.)

 

Any comments gratefully received...

[Bigmac versus]

Hi jjjack your system was choked at the filling point and by renewing this section of pipework or removing the blockage your system will run far better. It is not unusual for an open vented system of this age to do this infact its quite common. There are alternatives to powerflushing at a much cheaper cost and I would suggest you consider them. The cheapest way to help keep your system clean or to break up any sludge is to purchase a cleanser or inhibitor (typical cost £14) and the best thing is you can add this to your system yourself which avoids engieers costs. The radiator that has a cold spot may require flushed out and in the extreme case where it dosent clear you may have to renew it.

 

To add the cleanser/inhibitor you simply pour into the Feed and Expansion tank situated in the loft space, make sure it is the correct tank and not the storage tank. The F & E tank is the small one. There are a few products out there which offer an alternative so dont feel PF is the only way. Some systems dont warrant spending a lot and some WONT benefit from a PF. (one pipe system)

[michaeljcliff76]

I worked for BG as a subby and i wouldnt let BG anywhere near my boiler if i wasnt qualified to do it myself.Alls BG care about is money which was confirmed when thry gave me a pack of carbon monoxide alarms to sell for just under £35 quid.Now looking in some trade catalogues the most expensive CO alarm i can find is less than £30.New boiler installs for around £2000 plus when i can get a top of the range worcester for £700.They tell you in the induction to try to sell new boilers so if any british gas people come knocking treat them the same way you treat a jehovas witness who comes a knocking

[gashead]

well done whereswilbur! So many amateurs on this site giving poor advice ( I am not BG by the way). Some of the replies border on the comical, clearing written by people who are not that well trained. Okay mistakes happen and I am sure some of the BG advice is wrong from time to time but judging by some of the "second opinions" I am pretty sure they get things wrong too. Most of the suggested diagnosis are only short term fixes and are poor advice. Okay BG prices are high but with the massive overheads they have, is that a surprise? Customers still have a choice and if the brand is so poor would they still be in business? No of course not, and as for the claim that you cannot get your boiler fixed under the terms and conditions of Homecare is frankly nonesense. I am a very experienced and qualified gas engineer by the way.

[markignition]

I am a time served electrician and qualified gas and heating engineer with 15 years work experience. Having worked in other areas such as contracting and consulting, I have been amazed at the money driven mediocrity of a significant part of the industry including british gas and their subcontractors. The one thing that can be said for certain about british gas is that as long as you keep ringing they will keep coming out.

To talk about power flushing is a little misleading without first talking about Bs7593:2006, Treatment of Water in Domestic Heating Systems. This give several methods of cleansing, however, powerfluhing is the most effective and least disruptive and this is from my own personal experience. Having carried out flushes with gravity prior to buying a machine, I have noticed the huge improvement in water quality myself and would now never use a gravity flush if it could be avoided. The point made about pipe work layouts is only of minor relevance considering that the greatest proportion of systems these days are sealed and have no feed or vent and powerflux is commonly used. Powerflux is a new soldering flux which is highly corrosive and MUST be removed/cleaned away after working.

The price of your flush is a question of value. A system must be cleaned until it is clean and that can be upto 30 mins per radiator ontop of upto 90 mins each to set up and remove the machine . I always allow one full day for cleaning if I am replacing a boiler, so any engineer who changes a boiler and powerflushes in a day should be asked how they manage to do this properly. Id rather pay anyone £700 for a full day and proper flush than £250 for an hour as the benefits of a good BS7593 treatment will be felt for years. The critical factor after cleaning is inhibiting - adding a chemical dose to the water to stop any adverse reactions like corrosion or bacterial dmage. Once clean and treated, the system is likely only to need a fresh dose of inhibitor every five years or so. The first machine was built for BG in 92 by Keith, the MD of KAMCO (who are very helpful should you wish to call) and this is where I was trained to use my machine. Taking 80 years to rot is rubbish. I have removed a boiler that was not 3 years old with catastrophic failure, meaning so many leaks and faults, due to poor installation and lack of cleaning. I have yet to return to any boiler I have fitted in 6 years with any leakage or corrosion issues.

[gashead]

dear Markignition,

 

I have read your post and you talk a lot of sense and obviously know your stuff. I wasn't sure if your reply was directed solely to my post as I do not work for BG these days, I was merely pointing out the relevance of a power flush as a means to rectify poor water quality issues as a result of bad initial commisioning and/or neglect in the maintenance of the system. I have been in the industry for nearly 34 years from an apprentice to senior management and through to technical consultancy etc. I would be interested in any other comments on the subject?

[gashead]

The advice given by bigmac is okay, however the extent of the corrosion in the system can only be correctly determined by a water test which checks for the various elements in your system water which cause the corrosion in the first place. Once the extent is known then the appropriate action can be taken. All the faults you describe are due to poor water quality in your system if you just simply add an inhibitor all you will do is delay the inevitable. Your system probably does not have the cold feed and expansion pipe close coupled and if so this needs to be corrected as well. Call in an expert, we don't all rip people off.

[Metrolandman]

I have to say that since I found this thread last week it has helped me prepare for the BG engineer who came today.

 

I have had the BG Homeserve 200 agreement for 4 years now and never had the need to call them out - just the annual check.

 

My problem started last week during the freezing temperatures I noticed water dripping from the overflow pipe from the F & E tank. Went up into the loft and on removing the lid obviously found the tank full. Switched off the CH and bailed out the tank to reduce the water level, checked the ball cock for leaks and that was OK. When I switched the CH on again I checked the tank and noticed that the water was entering the tank via the heating vent/boiler overflow pipe.

 

I also noticed the water was heavily rust coloured. Phoned BG and arranged for an engineer to come today.

 

When he arrived at 0820 he asked what was wrong and I explained. Up into loft with much looking, feeling of pipes and sucking of teeth!

 

Diagnosis: a sludge problem

Solution: powerflush and fit magnaclean. Cost £750

 

He did me a big favour by turning down the pump to stop the tank filling up so quick!!

 

Engineer left at 0845 and didn't look at anything else.

 

Now I know our system is 10 years old and a powerflush is obviously a good idea looking at the colour of the water but at that price.

 

System is a Potterton Profile, 8 radiators and hot water. I have asked for quotes from 4 local companies plus Pflush.com and expertpowerflush.co.uk.

 

Thanks to all the contributors here.

[Bigmac versus]

Hi metrolandman im glad this thread has helped you in some way and may I offer you some further advice on your problem.

 

What you have is an open vented system which has a feed pipe from the F & E tank which drops down and is teed into the heating system and a vent pipe which is also teed into the heating and rises to the F & E tank.

 

THE SECTION OF PIPEWORK BETWEEN THESE CONNECTIONS IS CHOKED and will need cleaned or renewed, it is likely to be NO MORE than 150mm in length.

 

A good plumber should be able to diagnose this and take no more than 2 hours maximum to renew or clean it, i would do this and have your system added with an inhibitor/cleanser.

[mivona]

I have a Potterton boiler which was installed in our 4 bed, 3 storey house about 12 years ago (before we moved in). Just over 7 years ago, we had a power flush done because some of the radiators were not warming up at the bottom at a cost 0f £700 in late 2001.

 

I have just had to have a fault on the boiler mended, and it was recommended that we have another powerflush and Magnaclean filter fitted. How often are you supposed to have to have powerflushes done? It just seems bizarre to have an effective £100 a year additional cost for powerflush maintenance.

 

I've looked through the paperwork (which may not have been filed completely), and can find nothing in it about how long it is supposed to be good for. Any advice, please?

 

It also seems unlikely that the current boiler would be worth an investment of getting on for £1000 (for both the flush and filter) - when I could apply that money to a new boiler and have the flush done as part of the new installation. Is it likely to be worth have it done again for a boiler that is over 10 years old?

[Bigmac versus]

Hi mivona in short NO. When a system is powerflushed it cleans the system but you still need to protect the system from further corrosion.

Chemicals should be topped up around the 5 years and it sounds like yours wasn't. Magnacleans are great but the best advice would be to seek another opinion other than the man from BG. If you choose to renew the system make SURE you get the system treated and topped up when required, if this happens it will never corrode.

 

I wouldnt spend that amount of money on that system I would put it towards a new one firstly make sure it does actually need cleansed.

[mivona]

Thanks for your reply. Can you tell me how you top up a closed combi system? We don't have a tank anywhere in the house, so I am not sure what else I could have done. I have the system serviced every year, and have never been told that anything else needed to be done.

[Bigmac versus]

Well you can purchase a filling device or tubes now which go in via the bleeding pin on any radiator. You would drain the radiator in question and then put the chemical into it.

[mivona]

Shouldn't British Gas, as my annual service provider, advise me to have this done? I understand that they would not do it for free, but I would have thought they would suggest preventative work - particularly since they did the powerflush.

[Bigmac versus]

Yes it is a poor service to do a powerflush then fail to notify you about topping up the chemicals every 5 years.