DVLA Failure to notify new keeper fine court case dropped

[crewb666]

I had a simular problem with the dvla, dont know how they manage to get away with it. I have enclosed my tweeked letter.

 

I really do think we should all start a group off and report this to watch dog.

 

 

 

Dear DVLA,

I am writing this letter much to my dismay after receiving a letter from you stating I have not informed you of change of vehicle reg xxx xxx and I now have to appear in court. I sold the car reg xxx xxx on 12/04/2010, and mailed the V5 document via 1st class post the next day (as I have always done when selling a car – with no problems!). It has always a priority of mine to ensure the v5 document is sent of straight away due to not wanting speeding fines or parking fines etc occurred by the new keeper.

I have always followed the correct procedure and returned v5 document with previous vehicles as your records will show. I did not register post item as this is not a legal requirement to do so and thought no more about it.

 

It is simply not in my interest to not send a v5 document, why would anyone want to be the registered keeper of a car not belonging to them? Why would I want to be put in a position of being liable for speeding fines? I simply would never put myself in that situation and never have.

So I’m sure you can understand I’m not going to pay a fine for an offence I did not commit. I simply think this is a way of the DVLA trying to cover up for their mistakes.

The v5 was sent, if you have lost it or misplaced it I will not be held accountable for that. I posted it back and have done everything obliged to do. I also have a witness who observed me post it (my partner) Mrs Natasha Fear as she was with me the day I posted. She is willing to make a statement in court if necessary.

In regards to a notice that was sent dated 18/05/2010, and which is enclosed with the summons, this is the first time I have seen it. If I had of received it believe me I would have been straight on the case. So either it was not sent or lost in the post, which seems to happen a lot with DVLA documents.

 

Please note although I have been advised NOT to disclose my defence should this matter go to court, but as a matter of goodwill on my part have decided to and hopefully this letter will resolve any issues and the court proceeding will cease.

 

Below are some legal points I have followed.

 

1.

The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002

 

“Change of keeper: registration document issued in Great Britain on or after 24th March 1997 and the new keeper not a vehicle trader

22. (2) The registered keeper of the vehicle -

(a) if the registration document issued in respect of the vehicle is in his possession, shall deliver to the new keeper that part of the document marked as the part which is to be given to the new keeper; and

(b) shall forthwith deliver the remainder of the registration document to the Secretary of State, duly completed to include the following -

(i) the name and address of the new keeper;

(ii) the date on which the vehicle was sold or transferred to the new keeper;

(iii) a declaration signed by the registered keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraph (i) are correct to the best of his knowledge and that the details given in accordance with paragraph (ii) are correct; and

(iv) a declaration signed by the new keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraphs (i) and (ii) are correct.”

Interpretation Act 1978

2.

Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978

Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

As I previously stated I used 1st class post to “deliver” the V5 document which complies with both regulations above. It is impossible for you to say or prove otherwise. If your procedure stated any different for example it needed to be registered post I would have complied as requested. I will not be held liable for a fine due to your negligence. I have done everything asked of me and I can assure you I will be claiming expenses occurred from loss of earnings, travel costs etc if this goes any further.

DVLA states that I have no defence because I did not receive confirmation from them. I understand that the DVLA uses the acknowledgement letters as a smokescreen for cases like this. But tell me is the DVLA required by law to issue an acknowledgement letter? Is it a requirement to chase such a letter, is it covered by statute, and if so where? It is not a legal requirement.

The DVLA cannot hide or disregard the areas of law that don’t suit them. You have already had your fingers burnt on several issues, and I will be taking this to Watchdog if this goes any further.

I have enclosed my not guilty plea, I simply will not pay penalties for an offence I didn’t commit.

As stated in Human Rights Act 1998, Schedule 1, Article 6, section 2

“Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law. "

 

I posted the V5 document and if this matter does indeed go to court it should be down to the DVLA to prove that I did not.

I understand mistakes can be made with companies and except that, but this is disgusting and I would hope a massive company such as the DVLA apologises for treating people unfairly.

I await your correspondence on this matter and a quick response will be grateful.

Regards

Ben Crew

[Spotswood]

I have received a reply from Mrs Wooley enforcement officer DVLA to my last letter to her. They are still demanding their money, however interestingly they have extended their time for a reduced fee from the 11 Aug 2010 to 15 Sep 2010, and have included no legal references in their letter.

 

Their letter to me is as follows

 

Dear Mr XXXX

 

I am in receipt of your reply concerning the Late Licensing Penalty issued to you.

 

I understand that you are no longer the owner of the vehicle and that you are in possession of an acknowledgement letter. However you were the registered keeper of this vehicle on 01 05 2010 and it was not relicensed or a Statutory Off Road Notification made when required or requested.

 

Consequently you are still liable for the £80.00 penalty. Only payments made after 15 Sep 2010will be accepted at the reduced rate of £40.00.

 

Could I have some advice here, they seemed to have shifted the goalposts, indicating it's my problem whatever the circumstances. My defence as I see it remains the same, I sent off the relevant portion of the my old vehicle's V5 on sale of that vehicle as required, therefore fulfilling my obligations to DVLA. Interesting enough, on my acknowledgement from DVLA which I am sure is a standard letter it states in the "Further Information" that should I receive renewal reminders including SORN info I should ignore it as they are printed up to 6 weeks in advance.

 

I believe this is a final attempt to intimidate, nay bully me into paying up, the facilitation of extra time to pay a reduced fee and the lack of legal references gives me some indication their position is weak.

 

I do not want to pay as I see this as grossly unfair, advice please

 

Spotswood

[Spotswood]

Crewb666

 

I think your letter makes some very good points, however I wouldn't demonstrate anger with them at this stage. There tactics are disgraceful, and they are actually making fiscal demands without legal legitimacy under the pretence that they do.

 

I am going away for a few days and will respond to Mrs Wooley on my return, my position will reamin the same, i.e. that I dispute the penalty, and should they wish to pursue the matter they wil have to take me to court.

 

Also I'm sure they monitor these pages, so they probably know what our next moves are, however as long as our responses are legitimate, non offensive and cogent we should win through.

 

Best of luck with yours

 

Spotswood

[crewb666]

Recieved a letter today from dvla and i still have to appear in court. have court date on 19th of september. Now i have shown them my defence as in letter above im not sure if they will come up with solutions to overcome this. The only other thing i think i can do is request a freedom of information act in regards to their missing post figures.

Cant belive what their doing, ive done everything i should have and still there trying to do me. Do you think there is anyway they will win? can i claim compensation for travel expences and stress caused by this?

 

Cheers

[Spotswood]

Crewb666,

They have not taken you to court yet, lets see what happens closer to the date

[speedfreek]

The only other thing i think i can do is request a freedom of information act in regards to their missing post figures.

 

Already done in the SORN case vs DVLA over the exact same issue won in 2009(?) http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=774506&nmt=DVLA%20lose%20court%20battle%20over%20SORN which is well worth a read as most of the stuff written in this thread exactly mirrors what they did

 

Their FOI request on lost mail figures can be seen here DVLA and internally lost mail"]http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/internally_lost_mail_and_sorn_de#incoming-22566]DVLA and internally lost mail It basically just says they don't keep figures

[crewb666]

this is the letter i recieved in response to my sent letter.

 

thankyou for your undated letter recieved on 31/08/2010. the contents of which have been duly noted.

Firstly i will detail the events leading up to this prosecution to see if we can resolve any issues. On 19/03/2010 we recieved an application for a registration certificate (v5) from the new keeper of reg xxxxxx stating he is to be recorded as registered keeper. When the dvla computer was scanned it was noted that we had not recieved notification of disposal from your good self. this then triggered a penelty letter to you dated 18/05/2010. this offered you the chance to avaoid court action and pay 35.00. because this penelty was not paid we had no option but to place this matter before the court.

 

In 2004 the agency introduced an Acknowledgement Letter. These are sent out to registered keepers when there is a change to the record. This confirms safe receipt of your communication and that the changes have taken place. It states on your V5C that if the letter is not recieved within 4 weeks you must contact the agency. There is no legal requirement to follow up this letter but it is your safeguard. The reason being you know you have sent something to us, but we do not know we are due to expect anything. The agency does not contest the fact you may well have sent it. The issue is that we have not recieved it.

 

Your quotation of the interpretation act 1978 is correct. But it also goes on to say the following "the ordinary meaning of "send" is despatch, unless it is used in other words which makes it clear that "delivery" is intended". The requisition does not state that the notification must be "delivered" to the secretary of state. As you have stated on a number of occasoins you have posted the v5 to us, but you cannot show it has been delivered.

 

You have also gone on to quote the human rights act. At no time have the dvla stated you are quilty of this offence. The penelty is purely an alternative to court proceedings. It is up to the court to decide guilt.

 

I have not offered the original penelty of £35 to you due to your comments in your letter. All i can say that as far as the agency are concerned prosecution is a last resort and any penalty is acceptable up until the date of the hearing.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter and i hope this matter can be brought to a satisfactory conclusion.

 

 

 

What can i reply to this, im worried im going to loose in court. can anyone provide me with advice on this?

 

Many Thanks

[crewb666]

This is what i wrote in response. Is there anything you think i should add or change?

Your views and experiances and much apprieciated .

Dear Mr Brady,

Thank you for your letter of response I received 04/09/2010. I am however maintaining my position and not paying for an offence I did not commit. I take in to account that you say a penalty letter was sent to me dated 18/05/2010, however as mentioned in my previous letter this was never received. If this alleged offence had of been brought to my attention earlier, I would of without question been in contact earlier.

As previously stated, I have done everything obliged to do so. In regards to the DVLA “Acknowledgement Letter” as you agree there is no legal requirement for a person to follow this up. Therefore no offence has been committed on my part by not doing so. I understand you have it stated on a V5C that you must contact the agency if acknowledgement is not received within 4 weeks, but with previously having no problems with change of vehicle in the past, I thought no more about it.

In response to your comment that the DVLA do not know they are due to expect anything, may I suggest this is due to the DVLA’s own policies, where everything has to be received in writing. You cannot make any changes or inform of any changes by phone or email, you simply have to send all details by post. As I mentioned in my previous letter I complied with your procedure by sending the document first class. If you had a different procedure e.g. recorded delivery I would have complied with that.

You say the issue is you have not received the V5. But this I ask you, can you prove the DVLA do not loose mail? Can you swear down that this would not be possible with the DVLA?

The answer to this question is no. I believe my V5 document either got lost in the post (which I believe is doubtful, for reasons I will come on to later), or the DVLA have lost the document or not processed it correctly. The reason I think it’s the DVLA is simply because of the amount of lost post cases it deals with, this seems to be a re occurring problem with many people. Also the fact I never received the penalty letter you state was sent to me, and does not hold me with much faith.

In more preparation for my defence, since writing my previous letter I have obtained information from the DVLA, under the freedom of information act.

This information is about missing post within the DVLA, the results of this make a strong defence, that it is possible the DVLA could have lost my document. From the letter I quote

” if an item of mail does happen to be mislaid within the Agency, the responsible area would be unaware of the loss until notified (normally by the sender of the mail). There is no automatic process alerting the Agency to a previously received item of mail that had not been processed.”

I have now notified you, that I sent the document via 1st class post and have a witness who observed this, so there is a chance this could have been mislaid by DVLA.

I also quote some more information from the letter

“Vehicle Customer Services handles an enormous volume of documents and mail, indeed, last year we handled in excess of 15 million items of mail. In dealing with such large volumes it is somewhat inevitable that a small number of items will go astray.”

I’m sorry if my previous letter seemed quite abruptive, but I am understandably very unhappy with the situation, and the way the DVLA have handled this. I again plea my innocence to this offence, and have done nothing wrong except what has been asked of me to do.

I followed your procedure for sending the V5 document, yes I didn’t contact you after 4 weeks but I’m not legally obliged to do so. I can prove I posted the document, it’s up to you to prove the DVLA did not receive it and prove there is no possibility that they could have lost it.

But with the evidence I have already acquired from the DVLA, they already admit post can be lost internally.

I am now fully prepared to fight my case in court, although I would prefer not to due to the inconvenience and expense this will cause me. (Which however I will claim compensation for if court is the route you wish to take.)

Something has gone wrong somewhere and it is very unfair for me to have to pay the penalty for this, and I simply won’t which surely you can understand.

Thank you for your time and previous letter, I await your response.

Many Thanks

Ben Crew

[Spotswood]

Crewb666

 

Hang in there, they havn't taken you to court yet, it's all smoke and mirrors, if they were confident they'd be having you before now.

 

I don't know what others think

[Spotswood]

I think your letter is fine by the way

[mkb]

The letters fine but why on earth are you engaging in letter ping-pong with them? They've had enough opportunities - see them in court!

 

There is no legal basis that requires you to chase them to provide the acknowledgement letter! Provided you posted the V5c, you have performed all that is legally expected of you.

 

The rest, as they say, is carp

 

As an aside, my partner was taken to court a few years back for same thing. We went and the entire session was booked for DVLA - they did not win 1 single case :lol:

As the Interpretations Act states, once a letter has been posted it is deemed served unless returned to the sender by Royal Mail. They use the Act against us - they cannot also expect to take advantage of it in their defence

Edited September 7, 2010 by mkb

[crewb666]

Had court today. DVLA lost, courts seen it as a joke that dvla were taking this to court. The dvla now use the interpretation act as their defence. They use an extended version of the interpretation act and use the term delivered as there defense as we can not prove a letter is delivered by sending it.

Courts were in my favour all the way through and the guy from DVLA was the same guy i have been writing to and was an absolute p***k.

 

Justice was served and thank you for wasting my time DVLA!

 

Thanks for everyones help and comments.

[crewb666]

Hi all,

I feel i should also add that i dont recommend you state your defence in any letters to the DVLA. They had copies of both my letters and had done there homework and put forward there counter defence to everything i had. Ive sent all correspondence to watchdog as i sent them an email and there interested in looking into the cases with missing post and the DVLA further.

[Spotswood]

Very pleased it worked out. I have not been threatened with court, my case has apparently been referred to my local office for their "swift action", however it's been 3 weeks now and I've heard nothing

[Spotswood]

I've received my summons to County Court, they're doing it as a debt recovery, my position is that no debt exists, could someone offer me advice on this please

[Raykay]

As your summons is for hearing at County Court, it is a claim for the Late Licensing Penalty, which is treated as a civil debt. Their claim will be that you were the registered keeper at the time and failed to licence the vehicle.

 

It is a different matter to that of failure to notify DVLA of change of registered keeper which is a criminal matter dealt with at Magistrates Court.

 

You need to convince the court that you did send DVLA notification of change of keeper at the correct time, a problem can be that the result in the County Court will be 'on the balance of probabilities' which can be a lower level than in a Magistrate Court case where it is 'beyond all reasonable doubt'.

[Spotswood]

So this case being held in a County court is actually to my disadvantage. My defence that this is not a valid debt because i fulfilled my obligations to DVLA by posting off the relevant bit of the V5 may not work? I don't have any proof, I have a receipt from the garage I traded my car in at with the vehicle registration number of my old vehicle clearly stated as part of the deal. I also have an unblemished record of owning several cars and always following the rules in the past as I did this time.

 

The issue that worries me here is if I lose then a judgement will be levelled against me which may make it very difficult to get credit in the future, well that's what it says on the summons, however it grips my do dos that the DVLA are attempting to extort money in this way.

[Raykay]

Your defence is is the same, but it can be harder to convince a County Court judge.

 

As I understand the system, if judgement does go against you, it only affects your credit etc. if you then don't pay.

[Spotswood]

Raykay,

Thankyou, I am going to take some advice on this, it appears once the judgement goes against you it's a CCJ and it costs to get it removed

[crem]

Raykay,

Thankyou, I am going to take some advice on this, it appears once the judgement goes against you it's a CCJ and it costs to get it removed

 

I don't believe thats true. It will only show as a "satisfied debt"

 

As RayKay says, your defence remains the same; i.e. you posted off the change of keeper (presumably section 9 only as "transferred to trader", and not sections 1 to 8 which the dealer would have retained). I would further support my claim that I did this on time with the statement that why would I not want to do this straight away, as to not do so would mean I remained liable for parking fines and possibly speeding offences? This would be stupid, and I'm not stupid!

[Spotswood]

I am going to defend this and I will prepare my defence accordingly, thanks for the advice

[Dragons Dennis]

I would not be rude or cocky at all.

 

Simply write to DVLA as follows:

 

Dear DVLA

 

Re (reference number or car registration number)

 

Further to your letter of (date), I sold this car to (trader or private individual name and address) on (date) and immediately posted by first class post the relevant portion of the V5c to yoursleves, which is my legal obligation.

 

Whether you actually received it, lost it or misplaced it is none of my concern as I have fulfilled my legal obligation and purely as a matter of courtesy and to assist you in updating your records, I am happy to confirm the above is true and accurate.

 

No further correspondence in this regard will be entered into unless you wish to persue this matter through court in which case I will file a defence and ask for costs.

 

Yours Faithfully

 

Mr XXXXXXXXXXX

[Raykay]

Too late for that, Spotswood has the court summons.

[Spotswood]

I am going to work on the defence this weekend, and the reply from Draggon Dennis is quite helpful as it encapsulates the whole thing. I also heed the advice about not being cocky, so thank you

[Dragons Dennis]

The DVLA are so stubborn and simply push in the hope that people buckle and cave in. After all, they wouldn't take you to court unless they were in the right and knew it. WRONG.

 

Your defence is simple. Your legal obligation as stated above is to send the appropriate section of the V5c to DVLA immediately upon sale. In this case that should have been the yellow section with the dealers name and address. You did indeed do this by first class post, so your job is done.

 

The onus is on DVLA to prove their case, ie PROVE that you did in fact not do this at all. Something they cannot. There is no requirement to contact them after 4 weeks as they often like to try on, if you don't receive an acknowledgement letter. There is also no requirement for you to question the VED reminder either.

 

Your only LEGAL onbligation is to send the portion of the V5c. There is no case to answer. You do not have proof of posting. So what? No requirement to have such although it would obviously strengthen your defence. But so would a written avidavit from Prince Charles to say he went with you to the post box. neither of which is required. The DVLA have to prove their accusation, that you failed to notify them. But you did notify them and that is that.

 

Keep your defence short and to the point:

I notified DVLA of the sale of my car registration number : XXX XXXX on (date) by first class post.