Redundancy whilst on sick....

[Gun1]

Hi

 

I'm looking for some advice in regards to being made reduntant whilst at the end of 28 weeks SSP.

 

Ok, firstly. I've been on the sick for as long as the above period. Last week I was sent a letter entitled 'To all staff'.

 

Basically stating that the drop in business has affected all departments and it may be necessary to make some employees redundant. We will keep you informed as to any decisions that are to be made.

 

This week I recieved more letters from my employer. Due to the nature of my illness, one of the letters is to arrange a home visit. They would like to discuss my progress and when I'm likely to return to work.

 

Another letter requests my consent for them to obtain a medical report from my GP. It then says 'This will enable us to discuss...

Current state of health

When I'm likely to return to work

Any help or support or adjustments we can make to facilitate my return; and

The possible consequences if you are unable to return to work in the foreseeable future.

 

The other letter is stating that they cannot pay me any more SSP as my 28 weeks are up.

 

Ok, before I meet with my employer, I would like to know where I stand regarding the whole situation.

 

One thing for sure is I am not ready to return to work in the forseeable future. I would like to know my rights regarding redundancy..and whether if I request it in this meeting..they can refuse it...?

 

I've been with the company for 10-11 years.

 

Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks

[honeybee13]

Hello Gun1. I've been in a similar situation to you and, if it's any help, when my employer wanted to come and see me, I asked them to meet me somewhere neutral. With or without reason, I felt it was intrusive to come to my home. We agreed to meet at a local hotel/hostelry that has a coffee lounge and the meeting was held there, with my husband. That way, I felt a bit more in control.

 

I'm very new to CAG and will stand to be corrected by other members, just quoting my personal experience.

 

Good luck, I'm with you.

[Gun1]

Thanks for the reply, honeybee13.

 

Yeah I agree..it does feel a little intrusive. I could probably bear it..and I maybe could even visit the factory instead. I just don't like the idea of visiting during working hrs. Would prefer it when the workforce has gone home.

 

They seem to be pushing for me to return...or face the consequences (whatever that may be).

 

I am still unfit to work at the moment and there is no 'quick fix' with my illness (mental rather than physical). It has slowely set in over a period of 10yrs..and 28 weeks is simply not enough time to recover.

 

I'm sure my GP will back my claims..that I am still quite some time from returning back to work..

 

There is some issues I have that I need to understand..before I make contact with them...

 

What happens if I refuse consent for them to obtain my medical report?

 

They have warned (letter last week) that there 'MAY' be redundancies due to a drop in business. If I request redundancy (in the situation I'm in at the mo)...can they refuse it?

 

They might think well...if he want's to be made redundant..then we will get rid of him any way possible (ie..the cheapest way).

 

My thinking..They want me to return..I'm unfit to return. I've put 10-11yrs solid service into there company..they should pay me my full redundancy..and that will be that. I will be happy with this..as I'm tired with it all..and like I say, I can't see myself returning any time soon.

 

What happens if they decide that I am not one of the employee's they have chosen for redundancy? Maybe they have cheaper options..or they have decided not to make anyone redundant after all.....?

 

Hmmm..I'm confussed..

[honeybee13]

Hi there. I do sympathise with how you feel and would still encourage you to think about having the meeting somewhere that's not home or work, but that's up to you. I don't feel qualified to comment on your other queries, but having spent quite a lot of today looking at the website, I'm sure advice will be forthcoming. Try to stay strong.

 

Best wishes.

[honeybee13]

Another thought, Gun1. Does your company have an insurance policy to cover employees who are ill and unable to work? These sometimes kick in after 6 months.

 

I'm sure others will answer this, but would Incapacity Benefit, or its current name, take over? Clearly, you need something to live on.

 

Best wishes

[Gun1]

I'm really not sure.

 

I know I need to go to the advice centre and seek proper help.

 

Before I go though, I was hoping with all the knowledgeable peeps on here..they would clear things up a little for me, first.

 

I just don't know what is happening..regarding the whole situation. Where do they stand? Where do I stand?

 

As far as I understand. They have stopped paying me SSP and they have basically severed all financial ties with themselves and myself. So to me..it sounds like they have nothing to lose..and I have everything to lose.

 

Redundancy is my best option..with my current situation..and this is what I would like to persue.

 

It would mean I would not have to persue other benefits..as my redundancy would probably last me until I was fit enough to look for another job.

 

But, I come back to what I said earlier. They have stopped paying out..so why should they pay me redundancy..if they're not having to pay SSP anymore, anyways?

 

It seems to me that they can just get on with there lives/company now..and I'm left in the dark (especially financialy).

 

It isn't my fault I'm unable to work. The very fact I've worked 10-12yrs solid tells people I ain't no skiver.

 

They sent a letter out stating there 'MAY' be redundancies. I'm willing to volunteer for redundancy. But I can't help thinking that they might be trying to set me up and get shot of me on the cheap..especially with the word 'MAY'...

 

I'm unsure whether to let them know that I'm a willing volunteer. Incase it changes the whole situation for the worse....

 

It comes down to this...

 

1) Meeting due to take place early next week (home visit).

 

2) Seems they're trying to get me back to work (could be wrong..and there real intentions could be something different)

 

3) Unable to return any time soon (talking months here)

 

4) Letter sent out last week..warning there 'MAY' be redundancies.

 

5) Letters sent this week. One requesting my consent for them to obtain a medical report. The other stating they will not be paying anymore SSP. Last letter contained a date for a home visit.

 

6) Willing to take redundancy

 

What next.........?

[Offkey81]

The meetings are standard capability procedure.

 

At the meeting they will ask questions to see when you will return.

 

If your response is - 'I dont know' or 'how long is a peice of string' this will go against you. Under the capability procedure you can be dismissed if they see you not being able to perform your role in the mediam to long term. You have contract and you should live up to it - in there perspective. They will also ask what they can do to bring you back in - is there anything you can do? light duties will help you for the meantime and keep alive the hope of a redundacy payment (if an employee and worked there over two years). Capability procedure usually takes a while to complete though so there should be plenty of time for the redundancies to occur and for you to ask for it. (hopefully - but dont count on it)

 

Volunteering for redundancy wont go against you (as far as job centre is concerned you are sacked so benefits are paid quicker than if you resign)and if anything this may be there idea to pay you off . Potentially they could just sack you if you cant say when you will return. Redundancy may just be an easy - no hassle/risk way to get rid of you (as the capability procedure is a hassle - especially if you are under DDA). Consider your position - what do you really want - at this point you may be able to choose - if you know what you want ask for it as the capability procedure is a hassle and risky so they might actually want to make you redundant..

 

Going back to capability, they will also ask the same questions to your doctor as well as if you are under DDA (disability discrimination act). You should generally allow this or they can construe it against you. If your doctor replies in the vane outlined above and says you can do nothing - no light duties or anything - and that he cant say when you will be better. This will again go against you so you may wish to verse him on your difficulties. I will not say that he will lie for you but most GP are exceptionally supportive and will try there best for you if they know what to say.

 

Call the equality and human rights commission to discuss disability discrimination if you wish to try and save your job or protect position and acas if you want redundancy (but there is a cross over between both).

Edited November 26, 2009 by Offkey81

[Offkey81]

As for the home visit - ask for somewhere ese if you want - there are no rules to this (except that you really have the right to private and family life so you can really request anywhere). You can and should ask for what you want, if you can be regarded as disable (very low threshold - people with dodgy knees, bad backs, deprression can be regarded as disabled) - there is the possibility you can reduce shifts, change your job, reduce hours, staged return etc. Can your employer be bothered with this as few can, can they cope with constant absence (they wont want it) and finally whats worse discrimination or unfair dismisal (I would aways wager on the former due to compensation amounts and burden of proof). If your Hr/employer knows this you must accept that redundancy looks a low risk and keep everybody happy approach.

 

To be under DDA - 1. Must have mental or physical impairment. 2. Must effect substantially on day to day basis 3. Has lasted 12 months will last 12 months

 

If you are under it (it would help) and understand what is going for you and against you here, you should be slightly less concerned with your immeidate position.

[Gun1]

Thanks for the reply Offkey81

 

I never leave the house (ever)...'light duties' are out of the question.When I worked..that's all I did. Work, home, work, home.

 

Poor working conditions and endless pressure (overtime)..I absolutely believe started the mental problems. No mental illness or any signs of mental illness before I worked there.

 

Slowely but surelly it has got worse over the years..leading to me to becoming a sad reclusive being.

 

I mentioned (to both boss') that working conditons may be the cause of my current illness. This was mentioned just before I could not bear it any longer..and left on the sick..so did not pursue the issue any further.

 

To me. I am actually becoming quite angry by the whole situation. They warn of redundancies..why don't they just make me redundant then..? Simple as that.

 

I did not want to mention that work could be the cause..because I'm not well enough to cope with the whole procedjure.

 

Before I went on the sick..I requested redundancy. I was told something like they could not legaly do it..and I should just 'walk'..if I was unhappy!

 

I was disgusted with that response. Could not take anymore..and went on the sick.

 

I've been told recently by friends that the factory is 'dead' and has been for some time.

 

Also, they moved me from my '10yr role' indefinitely (had to sign form) to become a shop floor 'floater'..because I was unhappy with working conditions...and kept complaining. Done this for a week or so..before going on sick.

 

Two questions. Am I entitled to redundancy? Or will I have to walk?

[Offkey81]

What is the mental illness? - if they caused it there is a personal injury case (no win, no fee, no hassle, potential payout of a few thousand depending on financial loss, pain and suffering etc - remember you are not getting paid - but would have to pay back sick pay and benefits you won but it you would not owe more than you win) and if ticks DDA boxes you could be regarded as disabled - more details and I can take an educated guess.

 

employers often wish just to make people redundant (whio want to keep there job!!) to avoid these procedures. So depending on the employer it is a real possibility. Rememer, they declined redundancy when they would have to pay out and there would be little/no benefit (they had work, you were not sick or potentially under DDA - that has and could have changed your tactical position).

 

The more hassle to sack you the more a pay off through voluntary redundancy is likly, e,g if they start to rush through the capability procedure it will be a real pain for them if your doctor is slow to reply, you give a good response at the meeting that indicates a return in a reasonable time (in any capacity - can you work from home or lick envelopes?) can you indicate this will not reoccur once a correct drug is found (are you testing some) and that you are starting to cope, can your doctor indicate these things and a course of action he bveleives will work over a reasonable period (even if you are off for a couple of months longer), being covered by DDA would really help (almost essential if it is the position i have described) and state it to them if you think you are, also try to state you and your doctor are currently considering reasonable adjustments to get you back to work.

 

You can not guarentee anything, the delay and you being under DDA would hopefully increase the time taken dismiss (and the risk/ hassle). This should increase your chances of a payout - voluntary redunbdancy, comprimise agreement, medical retirement. However, proving you are fit for work may back fire, they may then decide to keep you out of spite and becausre you asked for redundancy (but would they think you may become ill again and like paying sick pay when your sat at home?).

 

There are no guarentees, each side weighs up pros and cons and decides what they feel is most beneficcial to them. You can only play the cards you are dealt to your advantage and hope. Remember, no one knows the thinking/stance of your employer but can only guess at potential avenues and speculate on the possible outcomes. They may be scared and love the idea of you accepting redundacy, they may want to get rid due to your absence and like the idea of redundacy, they may think they can fairly dismiss as there is nothing wrong with you - so they will have this meeting and get you to say you dont know when you will return and you dont know if you will ever work again.

[Gun1]

Thanks again for the reply.

 

Social Anxiety, stress, depression. My sicknotes are entitled 'Anxiety state-ongoing'. They caused it without a doubt...very, very difficult to prove, though. I would rather not go down this route..if it can be avoided.

 

As of yet..I don't think my GP has put me into a certain 'group'. I've just completed the 'Beating the Blues' corse...and now I've just started on anti-depressants..to try to control my anxiety. You speak with me for 5mins..you know there is something wrong.

 

At the time they declined my redundancy request. They said they would/could not make me redundant..as my position was not being made redundant.

 

Yet, they moved me from the paintshop to the machine shop indefinitely. They then employed a new paintshop foreman..and the old foreman moved into my position.

 

I've since heard that the new foreman didn't work out..and he has since been finshed by them.

 

They're now down to two in the paintshop..the original foreman (i assume he has went back to his role)..and one painter (trained by me) he has been employed for around 1.5yrs..both my ex workmates...three of us originally. All of my other workmates regarded me as the best painter (including the foreman..he agreed also)..and the job was 'easy' to me.

 

Anyways..conditions were poor. Extractor fans did not pull the air properly. I had to wait ages for new filters for my air fed mask (up to 2months on some occassions)..this meant having to put up with a visor full of paint fumes/powder coating..deadly Etch Primer included.

 

They have a huge oven sitting bang in the middle of the floor. No procedjure was ever in place to keep the doors closed until the fumes had cleared inside. Poor extraction fitted (way to small)..meant the fumes used to fill the paintshop several times per day.

 

Also, it used to give of this horrible gasy fumy smell..when stoving was in progress. Not all the time with this type of smell..I admit. But when I did smell it..used to give me headaches and make me feel sick. Nobody else spoke up though..in fear of losing there job....cowards! (including the foreman).

 

The final straw for me was..when they refused to let us keep the doors open. I lost patience and had an argument with my main boss in the paintshop.

 

Stating that with him telling us to keep all doors closed..he had created a 'death trap'..an 'airless fume filled box'..I described it to him. Very little movement in the air..as the fans did not extract properly..plus the booths were not big enough for some jobs.

 

Etch primer and oven fumes in the air were always my main concern. I was always worried that I was breathing them day in day out..and it was going to cause long term damage to my health.

 

Now, at the time I was a smoker..happy to say I've been off them now for 21 days..and still going strong. Recently rushed to hospital with stomach issues..and decided to call it a day with the nasty habit.

 

Anyways..they used to hold this against me. Stating that I smoked..and they never took my complaints seriously. Smoker or non smoker..they had no right to dismiss my claims on these grounds. Just because I smoked at the time did not mean I had to breath fumes every day.

 

I was always on my own aswell..my mates were to scared to speak up..even though they 100% agreed with what I was saying. I wasen't making these claims up..believe me.

 

The foreman (close to retirement..few yrs) used to complain to an extent (especially about oven fumes)..but never really went all the way..due to fear..mortgage n' all that.

 

Constant breathing of fumes and endless pressure to do overtime has caused my illness. I honestly think the fumes have damaged my brain. I also blame constant overtime pressure for my stress/anxiety.

 

I now suffer chronic Social Anxiety..and never ever go out. I find it difficult to even talk to immediate family without feeling stressed/anxious.

 

After writing all of that above..I'm now sitting here very angry and emotional. They had no right to ruin my life..and all of my 20's..I've been stuck in the god damn house...living nightmare..if ya like!

 

I'm still no better off..and not sure if I will ever get back out.

 

I would like to recieve full redundancy..and sever all ties with this company. I can then begin to start tackling this damn illness head on.

 

They caused my situation..and I want my damn redundancy..simple as that! I don't do threats...but I'm feeling more and more in fighting mode.

 

I cant really prove it can I? That's why I just want what 'I' think they owe me.

 

If I/they sever all ties without any redundancy..I will feel 'dead' inside.

[Gun1]

Something has just struck me..

 

That new foreman didn't last 5mins after I went on the sick. Maybe they got rid of him..in fear of me building a case against them...

 

If I had a case at all......hmm

[389shell]

Blimey! Sounds like you could bring this company to their knees under Health and Safety alone, if you could prove what you said, and it sounds like a spot check is all it would take, then I reckon you are in for quite a bit of money.

 

However I realise that all you want is redundancy and to be rid of them, so I wish you the best of luck with them.