Mbna 'agreement' - now threat of legal action

[lexis200]

well, you and the chocolate:lol:

[underdog13]

Try wine - works even better than chocolate;)

 

Glad we made you smile, Lexis.

[lexis200]

Sadly I'm not a wine kinda girl - give me a bottle of voddy though....

[underdog13]

Ah, works even better still:D

[angel_1]

oh i could drink voddy with fresh orange juice thats bliss

 

you done your cards or are we distracting ya lexis?

 

anyway underdog hope you are okay today, if you take a peek at my rec default notice from bos thread, im in a bit of a happy mood, but fingers crossed,,,,

 

see ya laters aligators - angel x

[lexis200]

Nope, not finished yet cos I keep checking on here (damn it's addictive). My fingers hurt now though and I've got a bit of a dent in my finger where I hold the pen. I hope it's not permanant:eek:

[underdog13]

Cure for dent in fingers; hold index and middle finger aloft, point in direction of MBNA and wiggle furiously:D

[angel_1]

oh dear its after midnight, it could get very devilish now....

 

blow them a raspberry too hahahahahha

 

 

oh we shouldnt poor lexis will still be writing her cards at 4pm at this rate,,,hahahah

 

i know what you mean about this site being so addictive, its crazy but so informative, im thinking of doing my A level law,,,,can you flipping believe that,,,hahahah

 

laters angel x

[underdog13]

I'm fine thanks, Angel. Hope you're keeping well, too. Had a look at your bos thread - fingers crossed for you (finished waggling them at MBNA; for tonight anyway)

[lexis200]

Hey, waddya know, it worked:D No more dent, and I feel much better:lol:

 

Blimey angel, you're keen. I did A level law at college - loved it but couldn't carry on to uni due to health being pants. No big loss though, I'd only be rich and successful now if I'd carried on, and then I wouldn't have the fun of chatting to you lot:)

[underdog13]

The laws' loss is our gain, lexis. Good to have you to chat to:)

 

Glad the finger dent cure worked; thought it might:D

[atwozee]

Blimey – you lot had a bit of a party last night lol.

Back on topic – CPR 31.16 would definitely be worth trying – whether the creditor plays along is another thing.

As for defaults – well personally I’ve resigned myself to the fact that once I started disputing the account then it would be inevitable that I would get one – to be honest I’m not sure it’s all that bad anyway – easy credit got me into the mess I’m in now – I was okay when I was working but never saw a long term illness on the horizon – no one does do they! And don’t even get me started on ppi!

I think we all know that MBNA are misleading us as much as possible – we just need to catch them out that’s all and the more questions we put to them the more they will realise we are not one person we are many. I’ve written my letter requesting disclosure of documents under cpr 31.16 because they’ve threatened to take legal action – don’t see why I shouldn’t call their bluff.

One more thing – I found out that when they introduced chip and pin they changed my account – they didn’t just issue an updated card they closed my old account down and opened up a new one – as far as I’m concerned the new account needs a new agreement and they didn’t get one – no doubt they will try to wriggle out of it but as far as the consumer credit act is concerned they need a written agreement signed by me for this new account if it is going to be enforceable – and they don’t got one (as the Americans would say) and I doubt that I am the only one in this situation.

As a last resort we could all march to Chester and demand to see our ‘alleged’ agreements or the original copies – now there’s an idea!

[underdog13]

One more thing – I found out that when they introduced chip and pin they changed my account – they didn’t just issue an updated card they closed my old account down and opened up a new one – as far as I’m concerned the new account needs a new agreement and they didn’t get one – no doubt they will try to wriggle out of it but as far as the consumer credit act is concerned they need a written agreement signed by me for this new account if it is going to be enforceable – and they don’t got one (as the Americans would say) and I doubt that I am the only one in this situation.

 

That's a very similar issue to the one I've been wondering about, Atwozee. My Lloyds Mastercard was changed to a visa card, with no new agreements issued. Surely a completely different card would constitute a new account? I've asked this question on another thread, but not got much response.

[atwozee]

Let’s put it this way – if you sign an application in 2002 and that application is believed to constitute an agreement, how can it be an agreement for an account opened in 2004?

Any creditor that chooses to close an account down, no matter what the reason, and then unilaterally open a new account, has to abide by the cca 1974 – that new account is a new agreement regulated under the act and that agreement requires the signing of a document in accordance with s61.

The cca 1974 is a specific barrier to prevent the opening and closing of accounts without proper care – otherwise a less than reputable creditor would be able to take severe advantage of the consumer. For instance they could open an account one year under a certain set of terms and then 2 years later close it down and open up a new account with an entirely different set of terms.

When the penny drops on this one I think you will find that there are a lot more unenforceable agreements out there than was ever imagined.

[underdog13]

My thoughts exactly, Atwozee:)

[Barclaysbunny]

Not read all of the posts - but, going back to your first page:

Optima sent you a letter threatening legal action, and included photocopies of different documents whilst attempting to make them look authentic and as one doc.

The letter was signed by a solicitor (Phil Robinson).

As you all correctly stated, the document is fraud - a fraud known to Optima. If I were you, I would, regardless of any other actions that you're taking, make a formal complaint to Optima, and at the bottom of the letter put

CC Law Society

CC Legal Complaints Service

(LCS: Legal Complaints Service home if you want it).

Regardless of whether the dolt actually saw the letter (which I doubt) the letter was sent out in his name, and under the prof conduct rules, he is liable for it. And the Law Soc take fraud very very seriously. Not sure, but it may also constitute criminal acts under Financial Services codes etc and (and I stretch it here, but worth threatening) money laundering laws.

To get Optima to go away, I would fire everything I could at them, and I suspect that Mr R will himself order your file closed if he thinks he could struck off and prosecuted.

Sorry if anyone else covered this.

[underdog13]

Thanks very much for that excellent point, BB.

 

MBNA themselves sent out the dodgy agreements and Optima just sent the letter threatening legal action under separate cover; can I still make the formal complaint to Optima, do you think? Maybe along the lines of are you aware that your client has supplied fraudulent documents which you are trying to enforce?

[Barclaysbunny]

are you aware that your client has supplied fraudulent documents which you are trying to enforce?

Or ask them simply what they rely on. Try and get them to send it directly from them. They say MBna have already sent it, ask them to send it.

If all else fails, just tell them you have it and it's a fraudulant document and under the Fraud Act 2006 they are using a fraudulant instrument to secure monies and as such you're going to the law soc, and obviously will provide that complaint for the court!

[toto003]

Thanks very much for that excellent point, BB.

 

Maybe along the lines of are you aware that your client has supplied fraudulent documents which you are trying to enforce?

 

Or ask them simply what they rely on. Try and get them to send it directly from them. They say MBna have already sent it, ask them to send it.

If all else fails, just tell them you have it and it's a fraudulant document and under the Fraud Act 2006 they are using a fraudulant instrument to secure monies and as such you're going to the law soc, and obviously will provide that complaint for the court!

 

 

Discretion being the better part of valour ppls. You don't want or need to word your responses so strongly, an accusation of fraud like that would be unwise. May I suggest you tackle this with "There appear to be inconsistencies with the documents supplied, and they are so worrying that [name the relevant places] will be notified" or that you want to make an inspection of the original document.

(there are various threads on using CPR 31.14 if action is being taken against you and CPR 31.16 if you wish to consider taking proceedings) Pointing out the the documents appear to have certain issues and taking steps to ensure that these are remedied and/or investigated may achieve the desired result.

 

Simply saying "You are using Fraudulent material and that makes you a criminal or party to criminal activity" is not a good idea. There is no problem of course with hinting at these, and even mentioning the related penalties.

 

Example: Documents there are found to be fraudulent and are used for the purposes of obtaining unjust enrichment carry the penalty of abc/xyz

Edited January 18, 2009 by toto003

[underdog13]

Thank you both, Barclaysbunny and Toto.

 

I will draft up a letter and post up any results it elicits:D

[lexis200]

Let’s put it this way – if you sign an application in 2002 and that application is believed to constitute an agreement, how can it be an agreement for an account opened in 2004?

 

Any creditor that chooses to close an account down, no matter what the reason, and then unilaterally open a new account, has to abide by the cca 1974 – that new account is a new agreement regulated under the act and that agreement requires the signing of a document in accordance with s61.

 

The cca 1974 is a specific barrier to prevent the opening and closing of accounts without proper care – otherwise a less than reputable creditor would be able to take severe advantage of the consumer. For instance they could open an account one year under a certain set of terms and then 2 years later close it down and open up a new account with an entirely different set of terms.

 

When the penny drops on this one I think you will find that there are a lot more unenforceable agreements out there than was ever imagined.

 

Just harping back to this poser for a minute, I was wondering if anyone else had thoughts on it?

 

My OH has a few cards that were changed from Visa to MC or similar, or that had completely new numbers given (so new accounts?), but never had to sign anything to agree to this.

 

In fact, one of the cards is still attached to the original mailer from a couple of years ago. The only signature spaces on the mailer were for cancellation or PPI, and the card has never been used. They had got the prescribed terms on it though, so if it was signed I wonder where that would leave us regarding an enforceable agreement?

[underdog13]

Hi Lexis,

 

If someone signed, I suppose they would have an agreement for the new account. Personally, I have never signed anything for the new accounts. All I've ever done was telephone to activate the card - hoping that wouldn't count as acceptance/acknowledgement:eek: Surely not, without anything in writing and my signature?

[lexis200]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear there I don't think; I was meaning that there wasn't an actual signature space, even if OH had wanted to sign it (he didn't sign this, or any of the others that this has happened with).

 

My other thought was whether if he had signed, would that mean they then had an enforceable agreement, even though it was for essentially a different card.

 

There, clear as mud:D

[atwozee]

Unless the credit card itself is considered a document and it contains all the prescribed terms and the creditor has a copy – I don’t see how it can.

[atwozee]

Unless the credit card itself is considered a document and it contains all the prescribed terms and the creditor has a copy – I don’t see how it can.