Chip & PIN again

[JimmyTheOne]

Readers might like to listen to today's You and Yours for some cases where people have lost money through fraudulent use of their Chip&PIN and had the experience of the bank refusing to pay up.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/listenagain/monday.shtml

 

((The articel is 28 minutes into the broadcast))

 

""In France they can now clone chip to chip""

 

Sandara Quinn (the lady representing the card industry) and Nigel Evans MP failed to mention that consumers dont have to have PINs if they don't want them.

 

Chip & Signature cards are available for those who simply don't trust PINs

[fivelaws]

I read a story a while ago (Nov 2004) about a bloke in the UK who had an entry added to his credit reference which stated that he wouldn't accept any claims against him for fraudulent loan/credit applications unless the application was accompanied by his fingerprints;

 

Nothing the banks can do about it apparently. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/24/fingerprint_fights_id_theft/

 

 

Edit : Just noticed this is in the wrong forum... (mods?)

[Movingon]

My bank have refused to issue a chip and signature card unless I am "physically unable" to use "chip and pin".

 

I've a mind to write to them and say "I am physically unable to use chip and pin. Please issue a chip and signature card".

 

They would get short shrift from me asking for a doctor's report... LOL!!!

[fivelaws]

"physically unable" to use "chip and pin".

 

That would have to be a novel disability wouldn't it? You can hold a pen, but you can't press buttons on a keypad?

 

Maybe ultra-sensitive fingertips?

 

Made up disease: Hyper Sensitive Meta Carpal Syndrome (HSMCS). I'm sure you could fake a webpage on this "appalling and painful" condition...

[Movingon]

LOL. Actually, any details about my medical history are completely confidential and they have no right of access to them. So all they have to go on is my word. And if they don't take it I shall lumber into action the might of the CAG Team of 30,000 users...

[Leo1]

So shops and stores can still accept payment with signatures? They have been lying to us then since 14 Feb saying the payments will only be accepted with chip & pin?

[JimmyTheOne]

No the shops have never lied, but the card industry is a bit economical with the truth and how the sPIN it.

 

When a retailer is presented with a Chip & Signature card they can't tell if it's Chip & PIN or Chip & Signature until the chip is read, and either a prompt to enter a PIN appears OR a transaction slip is produced for the cardholder to sign in the normal manner.

 

Blame the Chip & PIN people, not the retailers.

[thewifeandI]

No the shops have never lied, but the card industry is a bit economical with the truth and how the sPIN it.

 

When a retailer is presented with a Chip & Signature card they can't tell if it's Chip & PIN or Chip & Signature until the chip is read, and either a prompt to enter a PIN appears OR a transaction slip is produced for the cardholder to sign in the normal manner.

 

Blame the Chip & PIN people, not the retailers.

The quick way to get a C&S card - enter your PIN incorrectly three times. The card will be PIN blocked and only work with a signature. This happened to me (admittedly prior to 14th Feb) when I forgot the PIN. I'm not certain if it is the case now though.

[Movingon]

The quick way to get a C&S card - enter your PIN incorrectly three times. The card will be PIN blocked and only work with a signature. This happened to me (admittedly prior to 14th Feb) when I forgot the PIN. I'm not certain if it is the case now though.

 

The only problem with that is that I cannot then use it as a cashpoint card...

[thewifeandI]

The only problem with that is that I cannot then use it as a cashpoint card...

I thought I'd read somewhere that ATMs used the stripe still - I might be wrong though.

[Movingon]

...but isn't the PIN still locked whether it's chip or stripe? My PIN's the same whichever system I'm using.

[JimmyTheOne]

Absolutely correct it does deny access to cash from ATMs to you and the bad guys. You can get cashback with your debit card only at major retailers or over the counter at a branch using your signature. Therefore you don't have to be concerned about PIN misuse if you've not got one.

 

What I do personally, is I have a card (PIN or Signature operated )savings account which I keep low amounts of cash in for everyday use. The card can be used at ALL ATMs, but as it doesn't have a Visa or Mastercard not in shops.

[callumsgran]

not all retailers are using chip and pin anyway, i had to sign y'day when buying some fish food at a garden centre!

[fivelaws]

not all retailers are using chip and pin anyway

 

God help them. If they haven't upgraded their swipecard thingy, they are liable for any fraudulent use...

[blueskies]

Chip and PIN is yet another way for the banks to pass the buck to the customer for fraud.

 

Banks are liable for any unauthorised transactions on an account unless they can prove that the customer has been negligent. With a signature on the back of the card anyone could learn it and it was hard to prove that the customer was negligent. With a PIN the card theif would have had to see a PIN being entered, hey presto, customer at fault, customer liable.

Card fraud is falling slowly, banks liability for said card fraud has fallen sharply.

 

More 'champagne for the shareholders meeting'.

[thewifeandI]

Card fraud is falling slowly, banks liability for said card fraud has fallen sharply.

 

More 'champagne for the shareholders meeting'.

And interest rates that 'are high to cover the cost of fraud' are still not coming down...

[JimmyTheOne]

God help them. If they haven't upgraded their swipecard thingy, they are liable for any fraudulent use...

 

Retailers base their decision to opt for Chip & PIN or remain with the old system based on risk and cost.

 

In the same was as you can make hopefully an informed decision on whether to opt for Chipped cards with PINs or Chipped cards with Signatures based on your needs. (Do you fell safer using a PIN, can you meet PIN T&Cs (the card industry cant), if a disputed transaction arises where a PIN is used are you confident you know what to do?)

 

Think about it. Visa/MasterCard etc openly allow retailers / other countries to opt in or out of Chip & PIN. Yet they fail to tell UK consumers they can opt out of PIN.

[Movingon]

...and when customers TRY to opt out of Chip & PIN they are refused the option to do so.

[Yaesu]

I've always been against Chip and Pin, I believe it puts customers at more personal risk.

 

I bought a pair of sunglasses at Millets the other day and to my surprise they don't use Chip and Pin, took me by surprise I had to sign.....happy with that! ;-)

 

Out of interest "finger-print" technology is widely used in Mexico, why did the banks not save all the money they spent on promoting Chip and Pin and spend it on something even more secure/safe.

 

Y

[JimmyTheOne]

...and when customers TRY to opt out of Chip & PIN they are refused the option to do so.

 

You shouldn't be. Just put it in writing you want a Chip & Signature card for personal safety and security reasons. Never discuss this with a call centre for the simple reason that 99% of them either know nothing of chip & Signatue or they've been briefed to stay quiet about this type of card.

 

On Friday I was in a branch of the Halifax. The lady on customer service, very helpful as she was, insisted that you could only get Chip & PIN cards and everyone must have one. That was until I spoke to her supervisor, and then was told, " if you want a Chip & Signature card, you can have one, just tell us"

[Movingon]

You shouldn't be. Just put it in writing you want a Chip & Signature card for personal safety and security reasons. Never discuss this with a call centre for the simple reason that 99% of them either know nothing of chip & Signatue or they've been briefed to stay quiet about this type of card.

 

On Friday I was in a branch of the Halifax. The lady on customer service, very helpful as she was, insisted that you could only get Chip & PIN cards and everyone must have one. That was until I spoke to her supervisor, and then was told, " if you want a Chip & Signature card, you can have one, just tell us"

 

Nice idea; however I wrote to them and they told me I could only have Chip & Signature if I was "physically unable" to use a Chip & PIN card... end of discussion; final answer, call the ombudsman.

[JimmyTheOne]

Nice idea; however I wrote to them and they told me I could only have Chip & Signature if I was "physically unable" to use a Chip & PIN card... end of discussion; final answer, call the ombudsman.

 

The information they gave you is incorrect.

 

Try again and say that you have difficulty with PINs. (Leave it at that). Tell them the card they have provided (Chip & PIN) is of no use to you. Please supply a PIN free card.

 

Would you care to say who your card issuer is? Maybe I can help you acquire a C & S card from this issuer.

 

Drop me a private message if you wish.

[Movingon]

It's a debit card from SMILE. It right peed me off I can tell you; they told me that this was their final answer though so I think that the doors are closed.

[mutzi]

This thread has reminded me to request a C&S debit card from the Nationwide. I've politely asked via my internet banking for a new card without giving a specific reason. I'll see where I get. If they do ask for a reason I'm considering something along the lines of 'disabling anxiety relating to the input of my PIN in environments where it might be freely observed.'

 

A rather nice site here about the drawbacks of chip & pin.

[JimmyTheOne]

It's a debit card from SMILE. It right peed me off I can tell you; they told me that this was their final answer though so I think that the doors are closed.

 

Find out who the Head of Card Services is at Smile and address your letter to him/her. or you could try thiis (from another forum):

 

:

My bank decided that it would prefer to give me a Chip & Signature credit card rather than have me comply with their T&C on the Chip & PIN card.

The terms of the C&P card required "cardholders to notify the bank immediately the cardholder suspected anyone else knew their PIN" - the banks words not mine. I pointed out that everytime I used the card in a store I must suspect that someone knew my PIN (shop assistant, customer behind, CCTV camera operator). Even if I shielded my PIN I could not be sure nobody knew.

Therefore I was duty bound to call them and advise them of my suspicion and they could take what action they deemed necessary.

The T&C did not specify what action they would take and I would not insist on any. When they told me that the automatic action they would take was to cancel the card and re-issue it, the penny then dropped with the bank that they could either issue me 50 plus cards a year or issue a C&S card.

The thing I found interesting was the bank commenting that they didn't expect people to read the T&Cs. I wonder why.