SKY TV and the penalty charge - how far will it go? ** WON 21st May**

[Simon7685]

Is it not like the bank charges then? I thought the court would allow 8% for staturory interest if requested. I was going to include it in the letter, so it's a good job I read this first.

 

Simon:)

[buzby]

Nope - nothing like it. This is a consumer (service) contract not regulated under the CCA, so it's important you calculate your costs up front as they're not known for negotiating upwards after they've told you they'll settle on a 'no liability, non disclosure' basis.

[Simon7685]

Thanks for that Raymond, the spreadsheet calculated the interest over the time to be about £34 I think, so with other costs, including self litigation at £15 an hour maybe I 'll look at about £75 which I think is quite reasonable.

 

Simon:)

[buzby]

They'll probably not run with that - fees for 'self litigation' other than court costs are not covered by any court expenses. This is a Small Claims track and as such it is limited in a number of ways -expenses being one of them. If you show you are only claiming the money you are genuinely out due to their actions then this would be reasonable. Adding £x/hour for your time in doing so cause many to let an otherwise contested action actually go to court Even if you had to go to court for 4 times (as I did with RM) you don't get to charge extra for it.

 

It's your choice, but if you are seen to be billing additionals it can often work against you. Remembering to charge for the interest up front is usually forgotten, so in your LBA (sent by recorded delivery) simply outline that you are claiming only for your money lost due to their unfair practice and look forward to a speedy settlement.

[Simon7685]

So whats the best way would you say to set about getting the value of the interest on the money they've had between 2003 - 2007?

 

Simon:)

 

PS. Which is the best place to send the prelim letter to? Want to try and post it Thursday if I can but want it to go to the right address.

[buzby]

Easy, At the end of your LBA, list the charges as;

STATEMENT OF CLAIM

Total Fees paid 2003 - £XX.XX

Total Fees paid 2004 - £XX.XX etc etc

Do the same for interest charged (compound it) for each year etc

TOTAL CLAIMED £XXX.XX

 

You keep your letter polite and to the point. You have had these charges taken from your account against your wishes, and in view of the current review by OFCOM of these unfair charges, you are seeking their repayment as a matter of urgency. Also state that the interest claimed simply represents the loss of use of your money for the period to date, it is not penalty interest. (So you charge 5% or so, as this would be a reasonable amount to receive if it was held on deposit). Keep the totals and cost breakdown to the end of the letter (after) your signature, as you only need refer to the full amount as the amount you intend claiming.

 

Give them 28 days to respond, and failing this an action will be raised and additional costs for this will be added to the initial claim amount.

[IdaInFife]

sky subscriber services ltd

correspondence dept

4 mackintosh road

kirkton campus

livingston

west lothian

eh54 7pw

 

 

mind send recorded

[buzby]

Er no - this is just the call centre. The legal department is based at their HQ in Middlesex, so writing to Livingston would not be productive!

 

Legal Department

British Sky Broadcasting

Grant Way

ISLEWORTH, TW7 5QD

[Simon7685]

Hi everyone

 

This is the the contents of the preliminary letter to Sky for the recovery of my money.

 

I would be gratefull for any input and views, especially yours Buzby, would you say it is ok? Or is anything missing?

 

Thanks all

Simon:)

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Preliminary Letter Before Action - Account Number: 620013035956

My Request

I am writing to ask you to refund me the charges which you have levied on my account since its inception in 2001.

These charges have been taken against my wishes for a service you have failed to provide and in addition are unfair, unenforceable and in breach of the Common Law. In view of the current OFCOM review regarding unfair charges I am seeking repayment as a matter of urgency.

What I Require

I calculate you have taken from me the sum of £184.00 in respect of Invoice Administration Charges, a service which you do not provide. I require full repayment of these charges, together with the interest of £XX.XX, totalling £XX.XX. The interest added is in respect of the loss of use of my money over the time period stated. It is not penalty interest, it is simply reflective of the amount it would have earned in an interest paying deposit account.

My Targets to resolve the matter

I hope you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this rather than responding with your usual standard letters.

I will give you 7 days to reply to me accepting unconditionally, my request in principle and letting me know a date when I can expect to receive payment.

 

If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively within the time period I shall move my case forward by issuing a letter before action allowing you a further 7 days to reflect. I believe that these targets are more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and departments.

 

After that there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a claim through the County Court to recover my money, interest and any other costs related to the action.

 

Yours faithfully

[Simon7685]

Anybody any thoughts on the letter?

 

Also if anyone is any good with compound interest, I'm not really sure how to work it out and would appreciate some help. The total amount oc charges is £184 going back to 2003.

 

Thanks

Simon:)

[buzby]

Just a quicky - title you've written a Letter Before Action, not a preliminary one - (that means you going to send an LBA at a later stage!

[Simon7685]

Can't find the bit you mean buzby? I have titled the letter, Preliminary Letter Before Action, which I thought was correct, is it not right? I understood I had to send a preliminary letter, followed by the lba.

Simon:)

[buzby]

OK - so you've reached the end of the negotiations, so you send your LBA (your 'Letter Before Action') if they do not respond, you then commence proceedings. This communication is your preliminary move before raising an action, it is not a 'Preliminary Letter Before Action' as that would be a bit nonsensical (!) as you're saying you will send a PLBA, then an LBA, then the court docs! See what I mean?

[callumsgran]

Good luck with this Simon!

[Simon7685]

Thanks Callumsgran:)

 

Buzby......D'Oh.............yes, see what you mean now..........took some getting through:confused: ...........but you've got through my sometimes extremely thick skull:D !

 

How about: Invoice/Administration Charges - Account No:- 66666666

 

Are you any good with this compound interest Buzby and how you work it out? Mr. Thicky can't grasp that either......D'Oh!:o

 

Simon:)

[Conniff]

Nope - nothing like it. This is a consumer (service) contract not regulated under the CCA, so it's important you calculate your costs up front as they're not known for negotiating upwards after they've told you they'll settle on a 'no liability, non disclosure' basis.

 

An opinion, or answer if you are certain, what would happen if you did decide to disclose, what can they do to you?

[buzby]

Not a lot, I'd wager. These terms and usually 'standard' and designed by their legal team to 'protect their interests'. However, the agreement they wanted me to sign did not have any time constraint so if this was expected to be in perpetuity this would be seen as an unfair condition - but only a court could decide. I gave them 100 days of non-disclosure, but it is also another bargaining point. They invariably make an offer to close the dispute, along with the non-disclosure term. If you've been straight and are only covering your losses, you have every right to publicise it. If they don't want this, you'll agree to an NDA for, say £50-£100 or whatever. They most certainly don't get the advantage of confidentiality for free.

 

Interestingly, solicitors for Royal Mail in court, lodged a letter I had written to them stating I would go to the media to warn others of the fate I suffered at their hands. This was supposedly to show the Sheriff that I was trying to 'coerce a settlement', and a way to discredit my argument. However their later shoe-shuffling meant we never even got that far as they invoked their Act of Parliament exemption - but I managed to draw the Sheriff's attention to their bullying tactics, and although she couldn't rule in my favour, she denied their claim for expanses and that annoyed them considerably!

[Simon7685]

Hi Everyone

 

Quick Update

 

I have had no contact from Sky since sending my last letter, so it's time to move to the LBA. I am writing it now and will post it next week, I will update again if I get a reply, or have the LBA ready to send.

 

Hope everyone is ok

 

Simon:)

[buzby]

Looks as though they plan remains exactly the same for you as it was for me. They'll also ignore your LBA (or phone you to say the same). Once they get the court forms, they're then prepared to settle.

[Simon7685]

Hi Buzby and everyone

 

I have drafted an LBA, posted below. I would like to get to get some thoughts on it before I send it. If anybody thinks there is something missing or too much detail or anything else, please share your views on the thread.

 

This is an important step to take and I do not want to get it wrong, or give Sky the opportunity to dispute its content.

 

Thanks very much

Simon:)

 

09 November 2007

 

LETTER BEFORE ACTION

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Invoice / Administration Charges - Account Number: XXXXXXXX

 

 

I am very disappointed that you have failed to respond to my letter of 29 October 2007 and thereby enter into a sincere dialogue on order to resolve my complaint.

 

1. Between March 2003 and August 2007, Sky television have added charges totalling £184.00 to the account referenced above.

 

2. These charges according to Sky television are levied in respect of the supply of an invoice supplied each month to customers who pay their subscription other than by Direct Debit.

 

I believe these charges are unlawful and are charges for a service which is not provided. Sky Television in fact do not supply an Invoice for their services, they provide an Account Statement, which by definition is an entirely different document.

 

The Account Statement is a document which is also available to all Sky customers on request, irrespective of their payment method. As such Sky cannot charge only the customers who do not pay via Direct Debit. To do so is an act of discrimination and also lends itself to the belief of many, that the charge is in fact a penalty for not paying by Sky Televisions preferred method.

 

As act of ‘goodwill’, I will give Sky a further 7 days to reflect on their position and come to an arrangement to refund the amount of £184.00 which has been incorrectly charged.

 

If Sky fail to do so, I will commence action through the County Court to recover the amount, plus interest and my costs, without further notice.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Comments and thoughts on this please!

[IdaInFife]

Hi Simon,

 

It looks ok to me but someone with better knowledge will know for sure!

 

good luck

 

 

Idax

[Simon7685]

Thanks Ida

 

Buzby

 

I would appreciate your input on this???

 

Thanks

Simon:)

[buzby]

It wasn't SKY Television who added the charges. They are a broadcaster. Don;t you mean the folk who you pay your subscriptions to? The firm is Sky Subscriber Services Limited, (SSSL) and this would be the entity you would make the claim against. For any references you make to Sky, change it to SSSL after the first full use of the name.

 

To show you are being reasonable, increase the 7 says to 21. (They do move slowly!).

[Simon7685]

Thanks Buzby

 

Glad I waited for your input, as always. Alterations made and will be in the post today.

 

Thanks mate

Simon:)

[Simon7685]

Update

 

LBA posted yesterday to Sky.

 

Letter received today (dated 10/11/07). It is from a Natalie Paton who is a Customer Liaison Consultant.

 

Main body of the letter reads;

 

In line with the t's & c's of the Sky Digital Subscription Contract, which you signed and returned to us in may 2001, your monthly subscription payments are payable monthly in advance either by DD or CC. On checking our records, I can confirm that you chose to pay by DD and accordingly provided your bank details. Payment by invoice is not a payment method offered by Sky however, should you cancel your DD instruction your payment method will revert to monthly invoice for which, we can charge a reasonable administration fee. The current charge is £4.00 and is in respect of the additional administration involved in operating this method of payment.

 

OK;

 

1. My prelim letter asked, "These charges have been taken against my wishes for a service you have failed to provide and in addition are unfair, unenforceable and in breach of the Common Law."

This would seem to have been ignored in the reply, yes they attempt to defend the £4.00 charge with regard to it being a legal charge. They have not covered or investigated or asked for clarification of the, "for a service you have failed to provide."

2. If payment by invoice is not a payment method offered by Sky, then how can this be, "should you choose to cancel your DD instruction your payment method will revert to monthly invoice." Is this not a contradiction??? Also they are then charging me £4.00 a month for administration of something that is not offered, so how can you charge for something you don't provide.

 

3. As I have sent a SAR for which I paid £10, why do they talk of the signed and returned contract from May 2001, no copy of this was included in the paperwork they sent me from the SAR. Does this then suggest that they did not comply fully with the SAR request?????

4. Throughout the letter Sky refers to the 'monthly invoice'. Where is the invoice?? I receive a monthly statement!

5. Any charge levied in accordance with the Unfair Terms of Consumer Contract Regulation 1999 must be fair and in proportion to the cost incurred. Sky state that the £4.00 charge is to cover the additional administration. So am I to believe it costs £4.00 to generate and post a SKY Statement, which is what I receive??? Also it would seem I am to accept this amount without verification of costs.

 

I am sure they think we the 'little' people are stupid and should just accept what they say as gospel. Obviously they think I can be fobbed off, so we shall see what response I get to the LBA, probably the same! I really can't wait to file an N1...........

 

Simon:)