SKY TV and the penalty charge - how far will it go? ** WON 21st May**

[indebtstudent]

Hmm... I might stick with Virgin just to be a pain in the behind...

 

Just out of interest what would you sue under? I recall seeing some debate on this but can't recall what was said...

[Simon7685]

Hmm... I might stick with Virgin just to be a pain in the behind...

 

Just out of interest what would you sue under? I recall seeing some debate on this but can't recall what was said...

 

Hi

 

It is pretty similar to the bank idea. They are in breach of the uftcc regs 1999. The charge of £4 is disproportionate to the cost incurred and by definition is a penalty. Also they claim to charge it as a invoice administration charge but the document you get is not a invoice. Finally up to now anyone paying by dd is entitled to be sent a statement. This is the same one non dd customers are charged for. I am hoping to press on with this soon but still toiling with getting organised for the court.

 

Cheers

Si:lol:

[buzby]

It is pretty similar to the bank idea. They are in breach of the uftcc regs 1999. The charge of £4 is disproportionate to the cost incurred and by definition is a penalty.

 

It isn't - but only because of an anomaly. Sky refer to it (unless changed recently) as being an 'Invoice Charge'. In truth, Sky DO NOT issue invoices only Statements. I took them to court for charging me £4 for non-existant Invoices.

 

They settled.

[indebtstudent]

Well I was considering that BUT where is the breach of contract? Or are we going with the service fee argument?

 

Worth knowing Buzby, I'll keep you all posted. Mainly I'm just staggered by how bad thier customer service is!

 

I got a teeplated reply from the CEO woo hoo. I might consider switching BUT my reservation is that Sky and BT are much the same.

[indebtstudent]

Would anyone care to reply? I'm not breaching the contract by refusing to pay by DD so surely the penalty charge is a difficult argument to make?

 

That said all common sense dictates that it Is i fact a penalty so I don't know what to think.

 

I really want to take them to court though but would like some firm facts first.

[indebtstudent]

Sorry to post twice but I had to share this:-

 

"The £16.50 discount I have applied to your account covers the handling charge."

 

Eh? you've upgraded my package as a goodwill gesture so I still pay £30 but I still have to pay the £5? Hmmm, soudns fishy to me.

 

I've told them no reply is needed and that the matter will be settled in court when the non dd charge reaches the threshold previously advised.

[buzby]

But there isn't any contract breach, you pay your bills on presentation as the bulk of their customers do. They have simply profiled their customers in a way that they wish, and made it more expensive for those who do not fall in with their 'preferred' payment method. So much for the customer being 'King'.

 

They certainly dispute it is a 'penalty' charge, but they are now barred from doing this for all their customers in the RoI, so I wonder how long before the penny drops in the UK that Irish subscribers don't suffer these rip-off charges.

[indebtstudent]

That's what I'm getting at, on what basis could I take them to court with a realistic prospect of success?

 

I don't see how they can claim the discount covers the charge as it is seperate on the bill, plus on the telephone when offering the discount they said they couldn't waive the £5 as well again indicating it is seperate.

[buzby]

Let's face it, if it came to court absolutely anything could happen, but past experience has shown they don't like it and will settle. It's a shame therefore that the DPA is being used against us, as we cannot refer to court lists nationally to see how many people have followed this route.

 

In my case, of course they settled and my action was discontinued, but unlike in Ireland where the process has been outlawed, they still continue imposing the charges until the customer says enough. I've managed 3 years without difficulty, but now VM are refusing to refund and I'll be re-running the same battle once more. [sigh]

[indebtstudent]

I'm sure I recall something somewhere making reference to a term in the contract which is not individually negotioated, will come back on this I've got court papers to file for Abbey and Cap One.

[karen654321]

Reading with great interest. Im searching high and low for a template for a poc to take virign media to court re non ddr fees and late payment charges..

 

can anyone point me in the right direction??

 

thanks

 

karen

[Simon7685]

Hi Everybody

 

Sorry for not posting for so long, it's been a bit of a hectic time lately what with bank charges and loads of other stuff to get sorted.

 

Anyway, I am now no longer a customer of Sky and am still refusing their obscene penalty charges..............

 

The interesting bit, was they did not even make any effort to retain the custom when I phoned up to cancel...............I am still a bit surprised about that...........obviously not bothered about retention anymore at Sky.

 

I have been quietly working on my case file against Sky in the background and will now proceed next week. I decided to wait until I was no longer a customer.

 

I have opted for BT Vision, which for those who don't know is Freeview with an on demand pay as you go option. I have paid £14 for the month for their on demand TV package, which instead of having channels has around 1500 different programmes to watch at your leisure, including full series of things, old tv and new tv. In addition to this, I paid £4 a month for BT Vision Sport...........I have got access to 242 premier league games this season. My team is on 22 times between now and the end of the season, all full 90 minute matches available from 10pm on the day they are played, ok, not live but 242 games all available in full, for a total of £40 a season. You also get access to many other sports as well and championship football. There are classic matches, documentaries everything you could want......what a deal.....what a price. In my opinion it knock SKY left right and centre.

 

The service comes with a V Box, which is basically the SKY+ box and has all the same features including a 80 hour hard drive. The cost at the moment £0. Installation £0 an engineer comes out sets it all up and provides a wireless connector for a pc or laptop if you need it all it cost in total was a £30 one off connection charge.

 

It is completely PAYG, you either order things as you go or pay for a package for a month................even better, you pay in arrears not advance like you know who.

 

Take a look at the site BT Vision it really is a fantastic service.

 

So enough of my blowing bt's trumpet (it is brill though) and back to SKY.

 

I will be posting real soon with details of my action against them.

 

Simon:)

[IdaInFife]

Hi Simon,

 

You should phone BT and get a job in their sales team

 

Back to sky

 

Let me know if you need anything!

 

Idax

[Simon7685]

Hi Ida

 

I thought that myself, after I wrote it, it really is good though and much better value, have you seen it?

 

Do you know why the retentions team would not make an effort to keep their customers?? I wouldn't have stayed anyway unless they dropped that penalty charge and offered me free sky+ for starters:D . I was amazed though that basically they just said OK thats done for you bye!

 

I always thought they tried to keep you?.......still amazed....

 

Simon:)

[Simon7685]

Quick Update

 

Just about done with trawling through everything in the SAR, there are opproximately 2800 pages in total, so far I've got 150 odd giving details of all the pc's........................about 300 or so do get through.

 

I honestly can not believe the amount of computer screen prints some of them only have 2 or 3 words on................must be at least an Oak trees worth!

 

Simon:)

[buzby]

Mine was around 350 A4 sheets and delivered by courier. Once I had the information is was only 50 lines of text, but I turned them into a PDF for night reading when I retire. As for retaining your custom, it doesn't always follow they'll try to keep you sweet. I had switched from Sky to Virgin, so there was no loss - but it would have been nice to think you were still wanted!

[analyst]

. . . Take a look at the site BT Vision it really is a fantastic service . . .

Damn! I knew there had to be a catch

In order to receive BT Vision in your home you'll need BT Total Broadband

Stuff that, do you think I'm mad?

 

Anyway, apart from that, v interesting thread. Has raised my hackles somewhat, doesn't take much where Rupert Murdoch (hock, spit . . . . tink!) is concerned.

 

I currently pay Sky £45 per month by DD and I HATE, HATE, HATE bloody Sky.

 

But how do you argue with a wife who wants access to Movies and Premiere Football? I'd dump sky tomorrow if it was my choice, but her argument is . . . "Well, you have your computer, don't you?"

[Simon7685]

Hi Analyst

 

Why be mad to have BT Broadband? I have only had it since August but can't complain so far constant high speed and never gone down on me;)

 

With BT Vision I get 99% of premier league games for £4 a month also cup games (except Champions league) and even championship games as well. OK not live, but lets face it nobodys team is on sky live every week anyway, so it's just like waiting for MOTD but you get them all, the full match as well. £31 a month cheaper than sky......thats £372 cheaper, tell her how many pairs of shoes she can get for that.

 

Also don't forget the free calls aspect as well. I get all my calls 24/7 for £4.99 a month.

 

My neighbour has seen it, likes it and has worked out he can save £40 a month on what he is paying now............another convert!

 

Simon:)

[IdaInFife]

Hi Simon,

 

See now you missing out!

 

At least with sky you get the Introduce a Friend offer

 

 

You really should get a job in sales for BT

 

And for student....What date did you join sky?

 

It now says in their contract that direct debit and cc are only accepted method of payments although it can be changed after first billing.....

 

 

Idax

[Lord Blackadder II]

I could do with new job!

[Simon7685]

Hi All

 

Finally got through all the bloody rainforest from Sky:D .

 

I know exactly how Buzby felt now..........all but about 50 to 60 sheets that are relevant, the rest could wrap fish & chips until 2010 at least.

 

All in all there are £184 in £4.00 penalty charges for not paying my bill like they want me to...........and recieving an Ivoice that isn't an invoice but actualy a document freely available to any customer on request without charge!!

 

Or as SKY would have me believe.............

 

An Invoice Administration Charge.

 

Simon:)

[buzby]

You don't say when you actually joined Sky, but their charge being mis-described will give you enough leeway to pursue them. If you follow my original thread on the (search for 'Sky Subscriber Services') you'll see the manner of wording you need to employ, as it is fully explanatory with regard to the fact that they only send a statement, never the 'invoice' they charge for! You could add for good measure that if it does cost £4 to administer Invoices, could they back this up and explain why they were never sent?

 

That said, it is useful to at least write to them, saying you have identified £XXX in these charges and you find this unacceptable and you find this being used as a penalty in your case. Add that as this type of charging is already illegal in the Republic of Ireland and you understand Sky to longer apply this charge to non-DD customers, you are giving them this final opportunity to credit your account with this amount, along with compound interest on the funds as they accrued, and your S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) fee of £10. Should this not be forthcoming within 28 days, you will without further notice raise a formal action against them for the full amount, plus your court costs - which you hope will not be required.

 

Don't go down the illegal penalties/bank route in this initial letter as some bright spark may feel it better to go for a set-aside instead if you do raise an action. In my case they phoned me 3 times as said I wouldn't win if I was foolish enough to take them to court. I explained that I felt a judge would probably feel differently, but since they left me no option due to their refusal to negotiate, let's let the court decide.

 

They paid up when the court papers arrived at their Legal Department at Isleworth.

[Simon7685]

Thanks very much for that Raymond, it is appreciated. It is the statement versus invoice thing I can't quite get to grips with.........

 

I have been reading through your thread again tonight, it is just one of stupid mind blocks, it just doesn't want to go in...................I have even been examining the Oxford English Dictionary definitions today..............

 

I reckon it's all down to Sky's brainwashing techniques with their invoice statements they send us:D

 

Oh well back to the reading

 

Thanks again Raymond

Simon:)

[Simon7685]

Raymond

 

This account with Sky was opened in 2001. The charges started back in 2003 following cancelling the DD. They owe me £184 in charges without statutory interest which will of course be awarded by the court when and if they let it go that far.

 

Also due to my circumstances I will be exempt from court fees, so no costs whatever apart from my time, stationery etc and that will not come cheap!

 

Simon:)

[buzby]

Good to hear, as for the timeline, your T&Cs will have matched mine. All you need to remember is a Statement and Invoice have two completely different functions. The former provides a running total of payments made and charges applied to an account. An Invoice is a current record of charges billed for services obtained, it previously had to bear a VAT number to allow those who can reclaim VAT to do so, but this is no longer the case. An invoice will not show any ongoing total of how much is owed, only the amounts billed to the account that the account holder is liable for, therefore Sky only ever send statements - they are NOT invoices.

 

Next, there's no statutory interest issue. This will only apply if they delay in repaying the amount sued for after judgement in your favour (assuming it gets to court). Sky will offer to pay only the amount you sue for plus any court costs, so since they have had the benefit of your money to date, it it important YOU calculate this correctly to arrive at the final figure you are claiming from them.