SKY TV and the penalty charge - how far will it go? ** WON 21st May**

[kennythecelt]

No problems Simon and good luck with this.

 

I made the link to you when I heard about the result of the BT case.

 

Keep an eye on her case though as she may appeal.

 

I completely agree with the principle of your case. These charges affect many people who just can't afford it.

 

Good luck, Regards, Kenny:)

[Simon7685]

I'm glad you brought it up Kenny, as no doubt Sky will try and use this against me come the day of judgement.

 

Looking ahead though when Buzby's contact gets back to him, I will have the info on the Irish legislation outlawing the £4 charge, which will be great.

 

It will also be interesting to hear Buzby's take on this new info.

 

Thanks again Kenny and if you get anymore info, please let me know.

 

Simon:)

[IdaInFife]

H simon,

 

Sky charge irish customer 5 euros and 8 cents per month for invoice charge. if you sign up online sky then send you out a contract to sign or can set you up as peperless where by the send out t&c's and you agree to these if you activate your vc.

 

 

Idax

[Simon7685]

Hi Ida

 

Thanks for that, I think that is how we joined up, as I can't remember us signing any contract.

 

Apparently there is new legislation about the IAC in Ireland, Buzby is getting me all the info as soon as he can, which is brilliant of him, I wouldn't know where to start.

 

Do you know or can you find out for me how many customers in the UK pay by invoice?

 

Are there many people challenging the validity of it do you know?

 

Thanks for your help Ida and contributions they are appreciated.

 

Simon:)

[IdaInFife]

Hi Simon,

 

Couldn't tell you the amount but probarbly it would be about 25% or above of customers of nearly 9 million !!!!!

 

I don't know of any apart from the 2 on this forum

 

Call centre staff in Sky do not get told about any impending claims etc.

 

 

idax

[Simon7685]

Hi Ida

 

25% is a massive amount of £4's! I wonder, is there any chance you could find out an accurate figure? Obviously without putting yourself in any sort of firing line.

 

It would help me a great deal if I could establish something approaching an accurate figure.

 

Also can anyone point me in the direction of the other peoples threads who are taking action against Sky?

 

Thanks again Ida

 

Simon:)

[ravenbluemoon]

Couldn't tell you the amount but probarbly it would be about 25% or above of customers of nearly 9 million !!!!!

 

I don't know of any apart from the 2 on this forum

 

 

Make it three - I haven't paid by DD for ages - tried to get refunds from them, but just get computer generated rubbish back. Have got a few back from Orange though.

 

Watching this (and related threads) with interest, if I find anything that may help you, I'll let you know (computer permitting, she doesn't like the interweb at the minute...).

 

Good Luck!

[Simon7685]

Thanks for the Good Luck wishes Ravensbluemoon.

 

Any news on the info re the Irish law Buzby? and what do you think about the BT win in their non dd charge?

 

Anyway, I am still awaiting something from the court regarding a date, in the meantime, I am going into hospital on Wednesday for heart surgery so will be AWOL for a time, hpefully not too long though.

 

Simon:)

[buzby]

The Irish Consumer's Association lawyer was to get back to me - I'll chase them when I'm there on Wednesday. As for the BTcase, I've been amazed at the fact this solicitor (who specialises in promoting herself to the media anyway) has never advised what elements she raised in her defence, but all she has done is give BT false hope. There is no precedent here, and I expect a multi-faceted pursuit would be more useful than the (reported) concentration on the usage of cash payments.

[kennythecelt]

Very helpful advice Buzby!!

 

You have all been working really well together on this. Keep it up and let us know when help needed.

 

Kenny:)

[IdaInFife]

Will be thinking of you on Wednesday x.

 

Hope you are not off line for too long.

 

Let us know when you get a date

 

idax

[IdaInFife]

:o aww shucks Kenny

[Conniff]

Will be thinking of you on Wednesday x.

 

Hope you are not off line for too long.

 

Let us know when you get a date

 

idax

 

He wont be gone long ida, he is only going to have some of that gold he has used on here replenished.

 

Have a comfortable one Simon.

 

Conniff

[jeff2021]

Hi Everybody

***Part 2 is post number 5.***

I appreciate this is a long winded thread and hope you will take the 5 minutes or so to read it. Please leave your comments, good or bad and tell me what you think.

 

This is my story to date regarding Sky TV and the £4 charge for payment other thatn by Direct Debit.

 

I have subscribed to Sky since it arrived on the scene. I originally paid by monthly direct debit. On a number of occasions Sky implented the dd before it was due, sometimes by 3 or 4 days.

 

Like most people my account does not carry money in reserve unless i've just been paid. Therefore for them to take the money before it was due resulted in not enough money being in the account. As I had no overdraft facility the bank bounced the request which resulted in me being charged upto £35 for nothing. If they took it when they said they would, not before everything would be ok but oh no thats not Sky.

 

I phoned numerous times about it, standard response was dd was for variable amounts and the dates of dd were also variable at their behest!

My response - cancel the dd as my account was not still under the 12 month initial contract.

 

So I then started to pay by phoning up (at my cost) and paying by debit card. As far as I was and am concerned this is more or less the same as a dd, but I am in charge of when the money is paid not them.

 

I have to admit that I paid the £4 a month charge for not paying by dd as I did not know I could do any other, so this has been the case until I started claiming my bank charges back. Then I got to thinking, NO this charge is a penalty and should be challenged which is where I begin:

 

1. I phoned Sky to pay on 28 March this year as normal. I asked for the £4 charge to be dropped as it was an unfair penalty charge, the operator I spoke to refused to do it and also refused to put through to a supervisor. I advised her I wished to pay my balance less the £4 charge, she confirmed that was what she would do and stated the amount, I agreed and authorised it.

 

My intention now was to persue Sky in writing as with the banks and ask them to justify their costs or drop the charge. Anyway I did not feel comfortable with what had gone on so contacted my bank to find the Sky operator had taken the full amount including the £4 charge! I telephoned Sky immediately and got to Customer Services where I spoke to the most arrogant rude supervisor I have ever dealt with. He was not prepared to allow me to speak and constantly shouted over me saying I had no right to question their charges, and refuted my claim about them taking my money, I had his name and staff number and the operator who committed the theft, so I terminated the call as it was going nowhere.

 

2. I sent a letter to Sky as with the bank procedure advising them that under the Unfair Terms of Contract act 1999, they could not make a profit from this penalty charge and challenged them to justify it. I also emailed Customer Services and attached a further copy of the letter.

 

Six days later I received a reply to my email. They failed to acknowledge the shabby customer service I received on the phone and had no record of me being charged more than authorised - no surprise there!

It then went on with standard garbage re the dd being the easiest way to pay and if I didn't they incurred more costs and were allowed to reflect this in their charge of £4, I should phone them woth my bank details and they would set up a dd for me.

 

3. I replied advising them I would not be paying by dd. Further more I would not pay their monthly penalty charge. I again challenged them to prove their costs and said if they proved it correct I would pay but not until as I believed in not reflective of their true costs and as such was unenforceable and an unlawful charge.

 

I received a reply in 2 days. They began by apologising about the bad customer service I had received. Saying it was unsatisfactory and could not be justified. - Ok no problem thats fine all I wanted was an apology for the way I had been treated. However regarding the £4 if I paid by dd I wouldnt have to pay it!

 

What would it take to get the message through I thought, so:

 

4. Back to Sky same day. I thanked them for their apology and said no way was I paying by dd. Again I pointed out I was prepared to pay a true reflection of their costs for not going with dd. I again advised about the law on penalties and the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts act 1999, etc, etc, etc. I also questioned their non response to my letter on this.

 

Finally in an attempt to get through to them I said I would not be paying the charge now or in the future unless they proved to me it was reflective of their true costs.

 

Will I at last get through to them?;

 

5. Reply received in 3 days. They note I am clearly disappointed about their stance on the charge. I have to pay by dd or pay their charge. After consultation with their legal department I can avoid the £4 charge by paying my account 2 weeks earlier, so they won't need to send a bill so it won't cost them any money. Or pay in advance on an open agreement with a credit card!

 

Think about this for a minute, you already in advance by one month, now they want another 2 weeks in advance - nice, not!

 

6. Reply to Sky, same day going along the previous tracks, unfair terms, unlawful, unenforceable etc. Then I pointed out that there was already £8 unpaid in charges on my account and this would continue to accrue by £4 per month until they took me to court. When I would state my case and ask a judge to order them to justify their charge and also involve the media.

 

Finally I pointed out that £4 represented a near 27% increase of their basic package price. I am currently unable to work due to a debilitating illnes going on for the last 18 months which they at present can not cure, therefore I am unfortunately having to live on state benefit (which I am not proud of but am genuinely ill) and this was also representing a large chunk of my income.

 

I was absolutely fuming by now and thought that now I may get somewhere as effectively my account appeared to be in a debit situation.

 

Could they get any lower..........................YES!

 

7. I received a letter yesterday from Sky stating I was late in making my payment and I owed them £8, which I could pay by phoning up with a card or,...........yep thats right setting up a direct debit!

 

They have advised me that if I don't pay in 14 days they will suspend all my services until I pay.

 

Oh what a wonderfull oraganisation they really are, am I bothered by that, No, will I pay, NO. It is now down to principle, I will not be walked over!!

 

Watch out for my next move in this protracted saga tomorrow I think and hope its a cracker.

 

Thanks for reading, please comment

Simon

 

 

Nice Info...Mr Simon....

[buzby]

Right I'm back - and like the curate's egg, the news is good in parts. I've been to Dublin Citizen's Advice, and the Condumer's Association each recall a public furore last year when NTL/Chorus the Irish Cable Co threatened to charge differing amounts for payment methods. This prompted TD's (Irish MPs) to raise the issue in the Dail, and there was to be draft legislation to be enacted this year to prevent this happening. The trouble is, nobody can find whether it actually made it to the Statute Book! (Only in Ireland!). The public furore has since died down, so the CA centre said they assumed the problem had gone away as the non-DD charges weren't being made, but I called NTL Chorus and they say they are... and all they had to do was ensure customers were made aware of the fact!

 

To move this on, I've been told to speak with the TD that originally raised the issue in the Dail, and I'm trying to get his email address, so more when I have it. Also, the Irish National Consumer Agency are another point of reference, and I'll call them next week. That said, the ONLY reference to it I can find is the link provided in my earlier message.

[Simon7685]

Hi Everybody

 

A quick note to say I'm back:D !

 

Everything went well at the hospital, with some positive news from the cardiologists...................which makes a change!

 

Anyway, no news from the court yet, I had hoped to come home to a date. I did say I was going into hospital though, so maybe that's why. I will give it to the start of next week and if nothing ring.

 

Thank you for all this work you are doing Buzby, I really appreciate it and hopefully, it will all stand me in good stead when the case is heard.

 

I have been thinking about all this over the last week and was wondering if it would benefit me to see if I can get hold of a "statement" from someone, who requests it from Sky (without charge).

 

My thinking is that it would demonstrate how similar they are. We know that it is basically the IAC Statement has a giro slip on it and the other does not. However to be able to show the physical difference to a judge and labour that you are paying £4 for a giro slip, I think might make a big difference.

 

Does anyone think this could be a good move? Or anyone got any thoughts or ideas on this please let me know.

 

Glad to be back!

Simon:)

[IdaInFife]

Great news that everything is going well Simon

 

Re the statement, I cannot see it doing any harm but I'm sure buzby and the likes will be along to let you know.

 

Idax

[Simon7685]

Update!

 

I received an order from the court today.

 

Before DJ Bowskill sitting at Scarborough County Court.

 

Upon reading a letter from the defendant

 

It is ordered that

 

there be a further stay granted to 28th April 2008. The claimant to notify the court by 12th May 2008 if the claim is settled or directions are required.

 

Dated 31st March 2008.

 

 

I really don't understand this. Obviously I will contact the court tomorrow for some clarification.

 

As things stood, I wrote asking for a further stay to allow the mediation that Sky then refused. That was 25th March.

 

On 7th April I again wrote advising that they had refused mediation and asked for a hearing date.

 

However the confusing part is where it says, "Upon reading a letter from the defendant".................

 

Either this is a miss print, or I am missing something:confused:

 

If this order is something to do with Sky then should I have been privy to it?

 

I will ring the court tomorrow and update then.

 

Simon:)

[buzby]

Sky could have made an application to the court - but as you say, you'll need to speak with them to find out whether this is genuine or a mistake!

[Simon7685]

Thanks Buzby I will post on here asap. I it's like asking you to pluck things out of thin air but what sort of application can they make? Would it be to have the case thrown out or is there something else they culd ask?

 

Sorry to be a pain

 

Simon:)

[buzby]

No, they cannot ask to thow it out - you've paid youre money and you get your action. The only way I know to wrong-foot a pursuer is to call for (in Scotland) an Incidental Applicatrion. This allows the judge to rule on issues of due process (not the case itself) which can result in the action being discontinued.

[Simon7685]

Panic Over:D

 

There was a mistake on the order that I have received, it should have said Claimant not Defendant!!

 

I spoke to the court, obviously, my letter asking for a hearing date, is in the file but hasn't been actioned...............even though they have it as received on 8th April.

 

She said they would issue an amended order and refer the case back to the judge.

 

So no further forward I'm afraid, she said there is a backlog and a timeframe could not be given, only they would action the 8th April letter as soon as possible.

 

Simon:)

[buzby]

A pity you can't claim for your blood pressure going through the roof! You would think the courts service would have slightly higher levels of understanding and competence....

[Simon7685]

After the garbage I am still having over my Child Tax Credit and a DLA Tribunal to boot, nothing surprises me really.

 

As we all know only too well the government never make mistakes and most definately do not do U-Turns.................at least not in there Jags;)

 

Simon:)

[Simon7685]

A Quick Update!

 

Wow, it seems like ages since anything moved on this case, so I have rung the court for an update.

 

She said my case had been actioned last Saturday on OVERTIME:eek:! A judge doing overtime.............whatever next!

 

Anyway she said an order is being posted out today. I asked for more details but she wouldn't commit other than to say the stay has been lifted there are further directions but not a hearing date.

 

I will have to wait for it to arrive obviously but I do wonder why a date wouldn't be given, after I requested it in my last letter on 7 April.

 

Simon:)