We need your help folks! Re old T&Cs

[TANZARELLI]

Can crusher or any other mod please answer my question in post #42?

[TUTTSI]

Tanz, I have sent you a PM can you respond, Thanks

[TANZARELLI]

Tanz, I have sent you a PM can you respond, Thanks

 

Just have.

[photoman]

Tanz

Thanks for your response.

 

regards

 

PM

[TUTTSI]

Just have.

 

Thanks for the response, just reading up now!

If you can think of anything else let me know,

Thanks

DS

[TANZARELLI]

Thanks for the response, just reading up now!

If you can think of anything else let me know,

Thanks

DS

 

Will do matey

[Druids36]

Hello there, a newbe here. don't know if you've got this already but in our letter from the woolwich/barclays they said we could get terms and conditions on the following site haven't tried it tho; www.woolwich.co.uk/barclays.co.uk

hope it helps and will have a look in paperwork for any others ( I'm a bit of a horder apparently?!)

[HSBCrusher]

Hey crusher,

 

Could we have an update as to what actual T&C's have been provided?

 

Also is there gonna be a section where they can be downloaded if needed by claimants.

 

This would be really useful for members.

 

Share and share alike and all that.

 

P.S still after T&C's for Barclays current account 1993 and HSBC current account 2001.

 

Tanz

 

there will be some sort of download area in the library with the t&cs available within a few weeks, for users to take the t&cs they need, this work is underway.

I don't have a list of what we have, I will see if I can get one, so we can concentrate on the ones we have not got.

[mochamoo]

I have some from HSBC from awhile back but me being me, I have no idea how to put them into the computer.

 

Could I copy them then post them to someone?

[TANZARELLI]

Hello there, a newbe here. don't know if you've got this already but in our letter from the woolwich/barclays they said we could get terms and conditions on the following site haven't tried it tho; www.woolwich.co.uk/barclays.co.uk

hope it helps and will have a look in paperwork for any others ( I'm a bit of a horder apparently?!)

 

 

Hi Druids,

 

If you have any could you let me know, I am after some from 1993, Barclays Current Account.

 

The link you provided will just be new ones, the problem is that the banks are changing the T&C's to cloak or veil charges stating they are for a service which means they are allowed to make a profit, ratherr than a penalty which should only cover their losses.

 

Tanz

[stax68]

Okay,

I'm thinking that I may apply to revise my POC's.

This is in light of the fact that the Bank, despite several requests have still as yet failed to produce a copy of the original contract.

However, I do actually have several signed agreements that relate to various overdraft facilities agreed on several occasions throughout the period (and I do believe they fit all the criteria required to be considered as contracts, ie; an exchange of agreements in consideration for others by the other party, signed dated and exchanged).

I am thinking that I may ask that the court allows me to amend my POC's to incorporate an amendment to paragraph 2 (which related to my contract in just a singular sense) to also encompass and be widened to include these subsequent contracts.

These agreements do very explicitly state a set overdraft limit that MUST (their words) not be exceeded.

Thus by exceeding or attempting to exceed these limits set, I have clearly broken the terms of the contract.

They do go on to say that charges as published etc are applicable to the account, HOWEVER...

They also state that this limit is INCLUDING any charges, interests and costs.

 

Firstly, any views on this?

 

Secondly, how do I go about filing such an amendment?

 

Thirdly, any suggestions for the wording?

 

Regards

 

PM

 

My tuppence worth: I wouldn't have thought you need amend your claim as I reckon these are porbably ancillary or subsidiary or subordinate contracts (don't know the terminology) - i.e. fall under the umbrella of the original contract. In fact if you have such a document for each time your OD limit changed, then these would presumably(!) override any conflicting standard terms, and since everything hinges on the terms of the overdraft I would have thought these docs should be enough to rely on.

 

If you do apply to amend, you will have more delay and as I understand it its likely they will be offered the chance to submit a new defence = even more delay.

 

NB: I am no expert so all this is just a fairly confident guess.

 

If you want to get the T&Cs, and you haven't (yet) been allocated to the small claims track (you can't do it in the SC track), then make a Part 18 request asking for all the T&Cs that have ever applied to your account. HSBC provided me with quite a bit of info on that basis - though they only gave me excerpts of T&Cs, so you might want to make it clear that you want the whole lot inc. front and back covers.

 

If you might want to get any further info by this method you should include it from the start as you're not supposed to issue more than one. And don't include too much or be long-winded or include anything that isn't clearly relevant as you're not supposed to do so and they will jump on a achance to use this as an excuse to ignore it.

 

Depending on what you are claiming, and how fast they seem to be moving, you might be able to speed the process up by applying for summary judgement on the basis that their defence cannot succeed on the evidence, esp. once you have the T&Cs. If your claim is straightforward, you could even combine this with an application to strike out the defence on grounds of abuse of process. As you know there's some stuff on my thread that may be relevant - but don't forget that fine words butter no parsnips, I haven't won yet, and the details and circumstances of my claim mean I may not be submitting my application after all - obviously, use your own judgement. Any application costs £35I think (might be £30) - and may also have some effect on whether the judge thinks you are doing your best not to bother him/her...

 

Again, I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about so these are just ideas for your further research and not advice!

 

Lastly, I may be being thick but I don't get what you take "They also state that this limit is INCLUDING any charges, interests and costs" to signify. And do they actually say 'costs?' What do they mean?

 

cheers,

 

stax

[TANZARELLI]

I agree that this is a possibility: Part 18 request asking for all the T&Cs that have ever applied to your account.

 

Good call stax.

[detayo1]

Hi, I read this thread over the weekend. Well done everyone for your solid advice. It would be great when the T&Cs are available on the site.

 

My claim is with the Halifax. Been with them since 1993, however they sent me statements from 1999 to date. At first I decided to make a 6year claim, but soon decided with my LBA letter to claim from 1999. LBA expired 12.5.2007.

 

I ought to have commenced legal action, but did not want to rush into it, in view of the recent, very publicised set back case.

 

It now seems that the P.O.C in the template library would not be sufficient on it's own, especially with needed T&Cs.

 

Bankfodder said amendments would be made to the templates for claims beyond 6years. This is yet to be done. I assume further amendments would be necessary following the adverse Lloyds judgement.

 

Since 12.5.2007, Halifax has written (23.5.2007) to 'decline my complaint' (their terminology)

I'm very confused on how to draft my P.O.C following these development, while very conscious of the time. My claim is, dare I say, straight forward, with just the statutory 8%. Could someone PLEASE HELP, as I do not want to jeopardise my claim at this stage.

 

Best Regards

Rainman

[photoman]

Stax

 

Thank you so much for your views.

Very helpful, and pretty much what I was thinking may be the case.

 

I agree and think it may be best to await to see what is happening regards allocation, then try the CPR approach, with a well worded complete but concise request.

 

Regards your question:

 

"Lastly, I may be being thick but I don't get what you take "They also state that this limit is INCLUDING any charges, interests and costs" to signify. And do they actually say 'costs?' What do they mean?"

 

This is my meaning:

 

Regards "Unauthorised borrowing fees". An often used argument regards these posited by the Banks is that these are actually for the "service" of reviewing a lending limit, rather than a penalty for exceeding a limit.

(However, if this really is the case then the overdraft extension would then clearly no longer be "unauthorised", whilst the higher lending rates it triggers covers any "extra lending or risk" argument).

So to have incurred these "Unauthorised borrowing fees" required being over my overdraft limit, thus to have broken the terms of the agreement, and this also includes my not accounting for any fees and charges, as obliged to do so by the terms "including any charges, costs and interest". Thus a breach.

There have also often been occasions when the charges have continued to accrue simply due to the previous months charges, costs interest etc, so again, by my failing to account for these. Thus, even though my actions that month may have not included direct attempts at a breach, it is actually their own actions that have been complicit in my breach of contract.

 

Incidentally, had the fees been presented as an "overdraft review fee" or such like (which I believe some banks are now doing) then it would be harder to argue.

However the description "unauthorised borrowing fee" clearly by it's own terminology implies that it is bourne from some unauthorised act, thus a breach, thus a penalty.

 

Hope that makes sense.

 

Incidentally, to prevent hijacking this thread any further, anybody wishing to reply to this please do so on my own threads.

[troodles]

I have Barclaycard T&Cs dated November 2005.

can you send them to me please!!! i desperately need t&c for barclaycard.

 

thanks

[rwtstagdnke]

I am going through the court process(awaiting a hearing date), but as I opened my account probably about 20yrs ago(don't know exactly), do I need to somehow get hold of the T&C from the 1980's or do I just need to find one for the start of my claim 2001.

[TUTTSI]

Has anyone by any any chance got the T & C's for Halifax pre 1995/ I believe the account was opened arround 1990.

I am just compiling my POC for a ten year claim and think that I should have a copy!

Thanks

DS

[TideTurner]

DS,

 

Did you take out the account with Halifax? In the late 80's early 90's they began taking over smaller building society's and aquiring accounts.

 

Tide

[TUTTSI]

DS,

 

Did you take out the account with Halifax? In the late 80's early 90's they began taking over smaller building society's and aquiring accounts.

 

Tide

Hi Tide

Yes we took opened the account with the Halifax in the early 90's.

Does this help in any way!!

Thanks

DS

[Soap]

Its interesting to note that on RBS statements, any charge has the mnemonic CHG next to it, which, looking at the key means CHARGE.

 

Maybe this is a way of proving that these are in fact charges.

 

What do the actual statements say they are.

 

Similarly all my LloydsTSB statements use the abbreviation 'CHG' in that column, but then call them 'Fees' in the details column.

Not sure how much weight that would have, but worth mentioning.

 

Soap

[stax68]

Re which T&Cs: You need all the T&Cs that were in effect during the time you are claiming for. (BTW - the UTCCRs won't apply to any individual terms which took effect before mid-1995, and haven't been changed since.)

 

Re 'charge' v 'fee': this choice of words doesn't have any legal significance. The only relevant factors are (roughly): was the charge/fee taken in response to a breach of contract by you, and was its value more than a reasonable estimate of the cost to the bank of that breach?

 

Those are the conclusions I have come to, anyway.

[MimiJane]

I'm including the T&C's and fees and charges (A&L) for the beginning of my claim and the same that apply to the end (claiming for six years). There's no way I could include them all as, some years, they seem to have updated them 3 or 4 times and that would be one heck of a lot of paper! If my bundle gets any bigger, no-one will be able to pick it up:rolleyes:

[Soap]

I'm including the T&C's and fees and charges (A&L) for the beginning of my claim and the same that apply to the end (claiming for six years). There's no way I could include them all as, some years, they seem to have updated them 3 or 4 times and that would be one heck of a lot of paper! If my bundle gets any bigger, no-one will be able to pick it up:rolleyes:

 

Who do you bank with? I'm still trying to track down T&Cs for Lloyds between 2001 and 2003.

[MimiJane]

As above, A&L

[Soap]

As above, A&L

 

Doh, skimreading; missed that part.