Refund for flight cancellation

[life in the old dog]

I'm hoping that someone can help with refund on flights which we had to cancel.

 

I contacted Worldwideflights by telephone on Thursday January 18th to enquire about airline tickets to Bangkok. A booking was made and my debit card details were given to them over the telephone. I was informed that the seats had been reserved and that I would receive a booking confirmation by email which I should check and confirm by email.

 

The booking details were emailed to me on Friday January 19th at 11:56 and I was telephoned on Saturday January 20th at approximately 14:00 and asked to confirm by email that the details were correct. I was told that the written email confirmation was required before the tickets could be issued.

 

On Sunday January 21st at 08:43 I responded to the booking email by stating that our circumstances had changed and that the tickets should NOT be issued. I also requested a refund of the amount paid £1327.00. I received an email back stating that the tickets had already been issued and that no refund was possible.

 

At no time was I told that the tickets were non-refundable and could not be cancelled - these stipulations only appeared on the booking confirmation which I subsequently declined to confirm. The company's terms and conditions do not appear on their website (Worldwideflights - The Online Travel Agent).

 

They have since emailed to say that they have a recording of the conversation that took place on January 20th (see email below). On January 22nd I requested that a copy of this recording be sent to me within 7 days. Since then I have heard nothing from the company - no offer of refund of taxes, etc..... and no tickets.

 

I have contacted Qatar Airlines who say that the booking was made and electronic tickets were issued so presumably these have been kept by Worldwideflights. :-|

 

If they have a recording then it will show that I was told that tickets could not be issued until I had replied to the booking confirmation.

 

Any ideas as to which track I should take to obtain some kind of refund on this - eg. should I proceed with a subject access request under the Data Protection Act - they have clearly stated that a recording exists and I requested a copy back on January 22nd. Or should I go to court to obtain a refund of taxes, etc.

 

Any ideas greatly appreciated.

 

----------------------

Extract from email sent January 22nd 10:20am:

“YOU ENTERED A CONTRACT WITH US THE MOMENT YOU MADE A BOOKING WITH US.....AND

ON TOP VERBAL CONTRACT ALSO STANDS......FURTHERMORE WE HAVE RECORDED

CONVERSATION WHEREBY YOU HAVE AUTHRORISED THE TRANSACTION AND ISSSUE OF

TICKETS...”

-----------------------

[Bookworm]

SAR their backsides. Make sure you tweak the template letter to specifically request the phone convo, since they've said they have recorded it.

[life in the old dog]

Should I give them another 40 days or can I take it from my original request, eg. January 22nd.

 

On January 22nd I wrote:

 

I am now writing to inform you that, unless a refund can be arranged, I am left with no option but to proceed with this case via the court system. I have been informed by yourselves that a record exists of the telephone conversation which took place on Saturday January 20th (see transcript of email below). I am writing to request that a copy of this record be supplied to me within 7 days as this will be required by the court.

Should I now write:

 

Subsequent to my letter of January 22nd, to which I have received no reply, I am now writing to ask once again that you supply a copy of the recorded telephone conversation which took place between Navin and I on January 20th. You have confirmed by email and telephone that such a recording exists and I would like a copy to be sent to me within the next 7 days.

Under the Data Protection Act of 1998 you are required to comply with a subject access request within 40 days. My initial request was made on January 22nd and the 40 day period will expire on Saturday March 3rd.

What do you think ?

[Bookworm]

A SAR is not valid unless you enclose the fee. They are at fault for not pointing out that they are entitled to charge a fee of max £10 for it.

 

My advice is play safe rather than sorry, start form scratch, use the template in the Library, make sure you enclose a £10 cheque, and the 40 days can start ticking from 2 days after you send it. Send it free through the PO, get a certificate of postign to prove you sent it.

[life in the old dog]

Thanks a lot Bookie - I'll get on the case now. If they can't come up with the recording (which either doesn't exist or will corroborate the fact that I was told that tickets could not be issued without me confirming the booking by email) do you think I have a case for a refund?

[Bookworm]

I have contacted Qatar Airlines who say that the booking was made and electronic tickets were issued so presumably these have been kept by Worldwideflights. :-|

 

Get QA to confirm date and time the booking was made and tickets issued. You need to fill the gaps here.

 

Get screenshots of all the pages you can on the WWF website to show that T&Cs are not available before booking, if necessary with a dummy booking (don't give your c/c details!!! lol).

 

If they say they have copy of recording and then refuse to release it under your SAR, they're in trouble either way. ICO first, and of course, it will hurt their defence if they either do not produce it at court, (in which case, they'll have difficulties supporting the "verbal contract" aspect) or they do, and the judge won't be impressed that they refused to comply with SAR, which could have clarified the situation...

 

I know it might sound daft, but when it comes to convincing a judge, your hardest task is going to show him that a company like this doesn't publish their cancellation policy. With no cancellation policy in place, you should have little problem showing unfair terms.

I'm also thinking that a verbal contract may well exist (it does and it's valid), but that if they didn't tell you over the phone of the non-refund policy, they're screwed anyway, as you can not be bound by non-stated terms). Do I make sense to you? Thinking aloud here.

 

SAR first, see where it takes you. ;-)

[life in the old dog]

Get screenshots of all the pages you can on the WWF website to show that T&Cs are not available before booking, if necessary with a dummy booking (don't give your c/c details!!! lol).

 

Just visited their website today and they have changed the format (I wonder why ?) - you can now search online for flights - this wasn't there before - it was just a single page with their contact details and sample fares. Now they have some terms attached to the page eg:

 

Please Note: The data displayed in this web site is NOT a display of AVAILABLE flights but is a database of prices and should be used as a means of researching the best fares for a given journey on a date or range of dates. Once a suitable fare has been found, it will be necessary to contact the travel agent to check if seats are available on the date you wish to travel. All airlines sell only a limited number of seats at the lowest fare on each flight. When these have been sold, you may be offered a seat at a higher fare. However, the price will NOT be removed from the fares database as the cheaper seats may still be available on other dates or subsequently become available again due to the airlines releasing more seats at the lowest fares due to fluctuations of supply and demand.

 

Please also note that airport taxes vary between airlines on exactly the same routes depending on airline policy and it is important to check these with the booking agent before making a commitment.

 

Additional charges may also be levied when using credit cards for payment or making late bookings when tickets may have to be provided at the airport desk for collection.

 

In some cases, certain fares are only available to particular types of passengers. Examples of this are student and youth fares, OAP fares, group fares and inclusive tour fares requiring accommodation elements.

 

Still no mention of cancellations or refunds though.

 

None of this was there before but I guess I can't prove that as I don't have screenshots of the previous layout. I definitely wasn't told about the non-refund policy on the phone.

 

I'll get written confirmation of the flight bookings and the issuing of tickets from QA and send a SAR to Worldwideflights for the telephone recording.

[life in the old dog]

Can't find Worldwideflights (or Benz Travel Ltd) when searching on the Data Protection Public Register. Worldwideflights display an ABTA number F6929 which is registered to Benz Travel Ltd. and the address matches that on my previous correspondence to them. Can I use this address for the SAR or do I have to find an address that's in the Data Protection Register...... what if they are not registered?

[life in the old dog]

Does this sound ok for the SAR in my case ?? Any changes ?? Getting a bit confused with my recorded interventions and manual interventions so I just changed it to recorded conversation !!

 

-------------------

Data Protection Act 1998

Subject Access Request

Dear Sir/Madam

 

 

Booking Ref: xxxxxx

Subsequent to my letter of January 22nd, to which I have received no reply, I am now writing to ask once again that you supply complete copies of all recorded conversations relating to my business history with your organisation.

You have confirmed by email and telephone that such records exist and I would like copies to be sent to me within the next 40 days.

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such recorded intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply. I shall be reclaiming the enclosed £10 DPA subject access request fee together with monies already paid to your organisation along with interest claimed at the annual rate of 8% pursuant to section 69 of the County Court Act.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

xxxxxxxx

-------------------

[Bookworm]

No. You want EVERYTHING they hold on you, not just the recordings.

 

Change it to :

 

(...) Please supply copies of all the information relating to my transactions with your company, including, but not restricted to, any recordings you may have (and which you have stated you hold) , copies of all e-mails between yourself and QA relating to my alleged booking of xx date.

 

Please find enclose the statutory fee (...)

 

Make sure you BOLD and underline the title of Data Protection Act 1998

Subject Access Request so there can be no confusion.

[life in the old dog]

Ok - will do. Thanks again for the help.

[Karma1]

Why should they KEEP nearly £1400 of your money for seats that they will just sell on again and probs make nearly £3500 out of selling two seats over. It isn't even justified. Laws should enforce that businesses can't do this.

[diskocheddar]

I recently used this company to buy some tickets, and they've been awful!!!!!! Either they are really stupid or complete crooks. Thank God I haven't paid the full amount for the tickets yet! I don't hold any hope of getting our deposit money back. Can anyone tell me whether I'm legally obliged to hand over the full amount, and whether they could take the money from my account without my consent?

[heidi1]

Diskocheddar, you need to start your own thread really hun otherwise this is going to get really confusing... but in reply to your q's,

 

If they have stated their booking conditions to you at the time of booking (eithe on the internet or verbally) then there isn't much chance of you being able to cancel without having to pay!

 

An airline has various tickets at various prices. The most expensive ones being the ones with least restrictions, ie: cancellation up to xxxxx date with refund of xxxx £'s, the cheapest ones have all the restrictions offering no refunds for cancellations and no changes permitted.

 

This should all be explained to you at the time of booking, (or at least the type of ticket you are about to book).

 

If you were made aware of the ticket ruls, and you agreed to them, then there isn't very much you can do. Its not the agent keeping your money, its the airline. However its the agents job to explain everything to you so you know where you stand.

 

Start your own thread (this will probably be moved anyway), we will need more info, like how you booked (phone or website) and what you were told etc.

 

Heidi

[crm250dude]

Why should they KEEP nearly £1400 of your money for seats that they will just sell on again and probs make nearly £3500 out of selling two seats over. It isn't even justified. Laws should enforce that businesses can't do this.

 

Just to put the record straight here....

When a travel agent takes money from a passenger and issues a ticket - that money is then paid to the airline less the commission - usually around 5% - then when the customer wants to cancel the tickets - as an agent the seats cannot then be re-sold most tickets now days are non refundable and non changeable the seats can only be released back to the airlines system - so no agent keeps £1400 and neither do they then make a further £1400 (making a total of £2800 not £3500 as mentioned above - get a new calculator Karma1)- people seem to think when they are spending large amounts of money with travel agents - that the agents are actually making bundles - when in fact they are not - are you aware British Airways do not pay agents commission? - Instead agents have to charge a booking fee to make some money on the transaction,

I have signed up to this website purely to post a reply to this thread - as it annoys me being in the trade that people with the above view assume travel agents are crooks - when in fact its the airlines rules that we have to work to. And for the poultry £30 we earn on a £700 seat the admin and hassle of a cancellation - letters and threats going back and forth is hardly worth it....

Let me leave you all with this - don’t book or pay for an airline ticket unless you arte absolutely 100% positive and definite you will be travelling - and furthermore take out travel insurance to cover the cost of the holiday/flight in the event you cant make it due to death or sickness....

In respect to the old dogs original post - my professional opinion on what happened is thus.....

You called made a booking and paid for the ticket - an email was sent to you confirming the details - and the ticket was in fact issued – (you mentioned QA confirmed this) - the only reason the agent was waiting for a confirmation reply to your email was to double check the dates/times and names were all correct before sending your e-tickets to you (normally via e-mail)

Had there been any irregularities – names flights etc – the agent would have gone to QA to make any changes – however cancellation is not something that can be done at that stage….

Booking conditions on their website or no booking conditions on their website the fact is you bought the tickets and your situation changed, and now the tickets have cancellation fees.

I would like to know the outcome of this – I will keep watch on this thread

[wanderingsoul]

I do not agree with crm250dude. How much Travel Agents make from it is irrelevant. You request a ticket in good faith, plans change. They have provided a service, which they should be paid for to cover their costs. They should not make a profit on these fees. As you are 'in the business' you would be aware that travellers plans change all the time, and always have. Travel Agents are going to lose out in the end for unfair contracts, not supplying the Terms and Conditions and ridiculous fees for cancellation - even when you make new plans with them.

It is getting to the stage that people don't want to book with agents anymore. My advice, book directly with the airlines - be sure of your rights before you agree to the conditions - check the cancellation costs - request any information that is not showing.

It is pretty obvious that crm250dude works for a Travel Agency even if he didn't mention it. Perhaps he (sorry, I assume it's a he) works at one of the few that actually care about customers and fairness, though judging by this quote: 'Booking conditions on their website or no booking conditions on their website the fact is you bought the tickets and your situation changed, and now the tickets have cancellation fees' I would say not. They have no heart and make the contracts unfair on purpose. They refuse to provide adequate conditions on the website, which is how you booked it. This alone says to me - if the booking Conditions are not available, then how can you agree to them?

Therefore, I believe their 'contract' is void.

I would research the company for ABTA numbers, look at the CAA website, ATOL (did they provide the correct advice regarding ATOL?)

If you study their conditions and find where they have broken them (they normally have somewhere) then you can claim breach of contract, meaning that any fees should be waived as the contract no longer exists.

crm250dude - Don't be offended. Rather, learn that us travellers are your bread and butter. Look after us and we may do the same. I have been a backpacker for 4 years, spending thousands of pounds with agencies. 9 out of 10 are complety lousy. The best advice is to book directly with the airlines or you just get charged by both companies if you change.

[crm250dude]

wanderingsoul - your so wrong i dont know where to start - firstly im not taking it personaly, and yes without travellers us agents would not make money....

lets start with the "Service" point - as an agent our service extends to being a ticket provider - we do not make up the rules governing fares - the airline does- and as i have said we only reap a commission - so by cancelling, a traveller does not make the agent any more money - just more hassle, where fares are non refundable and most are these days - the agent then has to process the taxes for refund - and again makes no money on this –

so we don’t as you say make contracts unfair on purpose and with or without a heart an agent does not have the power to change airlines rules.

You go on to say…

“It is getting to the stage that people don't want to book with agents anymore. My advice, book directly with the airlines - be sure of your rights before you agree to the conditions - check the cancellation costs - request any information that is not showing.”

Well firstly agents are given special fares to sell that are cheaper than buying through airlines direct – its like wholesaling, so if you want to spend more money on the seat than the passenger next to you – go to the airline direct and ask all the above questions….

You can still ask your agent all the above questions and make sure you are aware of the cancellation fees…

Did you even know Qatar Airways fly to Bangkok?

Did you know there are over 50 carriers that fly to Bangkok from the UK?

- Your Agent does!!! And can give you fares on all of them in one phone call.

At the end of the day – don’t book and pay for a flight unless you know you are definitely travelling as cancellation fees that are imposed by airlines are very hefty in this day and age….

And remember when you pay thousands and thousands of pounds on an airfare the agent is not getting this they are only getting a commission on the transaction and once a ticket is issued your contract then lies with the airline directly and so do your thousands and thousands of pounds.

[heidi1]

I speak as an agent, and ap is correct. The airline is the one who charges what they want, cancellation fees, fares, amendment fees, what ever. Your grudge should not be with the agent, but the airline.

 

Booking directly will NOT save you money, if you book the same class ticket with them, you will still have the same rules applied to it, so if you want to change or cancel, you still have to pay! So your argument falls down straight away there, its not the agent thats making all the charges, and as ap points out, agents do not make much money out of any transaction.

[wanderingsoul]

Well, I am happy to receive a response to my thread all the same.

First, I understand that the Airlines are the one's charging cancellation fees. However, so do some agents.

I recently cancelled a flight due to appauling service (which probably rubbed off in my post to crmdude - so sorry for this).

Air India had cancellation costs of £50

The Travel Agent had cancellation costs of £165.

How would you explain this? I would be interested in your response.

Further, how about this section of my post: They refuse to provide adequate conditions on the website, which is how you booked it. This alone says to me - if the booking Conditions are not available, then how can you agree to them?

I agree with both crm250dude and Heidi1 that agents have better deals than directly with an airline. My point was that to save the hassle of dealing with both the agent and the airline, and 2 cancellation charges, go directly via the airline. I also agree that if you ask all the right questions as mentioned earlier, and an agent meets your expectations, then there is no reason not to book with them.

 

In closing, I do not totally disagree with Heidi or crm350, though as stated below: 'The airline is the one who charges what they want' - can you honestly say that agents do not charge anything at all?

 

I thank you all for hearing my thoughts, and I apologise if I seemed rude in past posts. I should not take out my grudge on agents as a whole, just the one that ripped me off.

[crm250dude]

ok - so lets do some maths here then.....

so lets say you paid £400 for a ticket - in that £400 was the agents fee of lets say £50 hypothetically so the net fare from the airline to the agent was £350 – now you want to cancel and the agent has to do more work refunding your ticket and issuing cancellation documentation – taking up valuable sales time….

So now air India are going to give back the agent £300 – are you saying you expect the agent to give you back their original commission and not charge you for the further admin / time / effort in administering your cancellation?

I don’t think so – were not running a charity here we all got mouths to feed and mortgages to pay…

So the agent gets back the £300 – less the original £50 profit on the transaction – and lets add a further £50 for the admin – that leaves you with £200 refund – so a £200 cancellation fee….

That is more than reasonable – more than fair – what do you expect a free service – were only covering costs here...

Further more there are so many different airfares with so many different cancellation policies it would be impossible to list them all.

If your going to book something with cancellation in mind – enquire about the cancellation policy of the booking

And I will repeat my mantra:

don’t book and pay for a flight unless you know you are definitely travelling

and take out travel insurance in the event of cancellation due to reasons beyond your control.

[wanderingsoul]

Let me say again - travellers make plans, plans change. I realise you need to do more work, though I doubt the entire time spent cancelling flights costs £200! I do not expect anyone to work for free - though I don't expect them to make a profit on my misfortune either.

On top of this there are normally unfair contracts or terms with every agent. They make it in their favour as they know peoples plans change all the time.

And let me just make my original point once again, which still hasn't even been touched - ' If They refuse to provide adequate conditions on the website, which is how you booked it, this alone says to me - if the booking Conditions are not available, then how can you agree to them? '

Normally, agents do not advertise what the cancellation costs are. They just say that they are not responsible for cancellations etc (fair enough)

 

You said: ' If your going to book something with cancellation in mind – enquire about the cancellation policy of the booking

And I will repeat my mantra:

don’t book and pay for a flight unless you know you are definitely travelling, and take out travel insurance in the event of cancellation due to reasons beyond your control.

 

Well, the point is: Indeed, you should enquire about the cancellation policy, though we shouldn't have to - it should be clearly shown in the conditions. Also, why would anyone book their travel with cancellation in mind? Don't book and pay unless you know you are definitely travelling? Well, when you are a backpacker, definitely never comes into it. Travel insurance is another way of saying 'we will probably stuff this up somehow, so pay us now just in case and you wont have to pay a fortune later.' I am sure you will disagree.

 

I can see what you are saying, though I do not fully agree, and I think that most travellers would agree with me. I know this isn't a forum for debates, just advice, so I appreciate your input though will not reply.

 

Best of luck to you all.

[Thailand]

ok - so lets do some maths here then.....

 

so lets say you paid £400 for a ticket - in that £400 was the agents fee of lets say £50 hypothetically so the net fare from the airline to the agent was £350 – now you want to cancel and the agent has to do more work refunding your ticket and issuing cancellation documentation – taking up valuable sales time….

So now air India are going to give back the agent £300 – are you saying you expect the agent to give you back their original commission and not charge you for the further admin / time / effort in administering your cancellation?

 

I don’t think so – were not running a charity here we all got mouths to feed and mortgages to pay…

 

So the agent gets back the £300 – less the original £50 profit on the transaction – and lets add a further £50 for the admin – that leaves you with £200 refund – so a £200 cancellation fee….

 

That is more than reasonable – more than fair – what do you expect a free service – were only covering costs here...

 

Further more there are so many different airfares with so many different cancellation policies it would be impossible to list them all.

 

If your going to book something with cancellation in mind – enquire about the cancellation policy of the booking

And I will repeat my mantra:

don’t book and pay for a flight unless you know you are definitely travelling

and take out travel insurance in the event of cancellation due to reasons beyond your control.

 

I also am having trouble with these mathematics.

 

On the assumption the fare was £400, the refund would be £185 by your calculations - a cost of £215 in manual intervention, unless there was a stipulated cancellation fee. I'm not being petty, its just if your going to talk about profits and having mouths to feed, and then go on to say your only covering costs then it doesn't ring true to me.

 

Nobody assumes you are running a charity, why should an agent go to all this effort and not be at the very least compensated?. I agree it's admin and time that could have been better spent elsewhere. I feel you are due a reimbursement.

 

However, and feel free to correct me, it doesn't seem 'fair' in the slightest to me. These admin fees are ludicrously high and whilst it appears you have to go through the montions, it reads to me than the transaction is actually of higher value to you when clients cancel. I am basing that on £50 commission for completed sale, and £165 for a cancellation.

 

I don't assume to know your costs, but they seem a bit whiffy to me, but then I don't believe there is many a true service fee in the land.

 

Can I ask, hypothetically, would you be prepared to send in documentary evidence, to a court, to prove these fees were for admin only, since they only cover costs?. Say you keep you £50, as do Air India, can £115 be justified?

[Thailand]

So the agent gets back the £300 – less the original £50 profit on the transaction – and lets add a further £50 for the admin – that leaves you with £200 refund – so a £200 cancellation fee….

 

That is more than reasonable – more than fair – what do you expect a free service – were only covering costs here...

 

Haven't you subtracted your £50 twice:confused:

[wanderingsoul]

Ah, Thailand! Another traveller I persume.

 

I agree that the cancellation charges (ie admin fees etc ) are ridiculous. If they can prove that this is what it costs to simply cancel a ticket, then I would pay. What is the process here? What, do travel agents make £50 an hour? How long does it actually take to cancel a ticket for someone?

 

I am not cheap - I do not expect a free service. Agents just take advantage. Insurance is a rip off. If an agent provided me with excellent service, then I would be more than happy to pay for said service.

 

Also, I never disputed paying Air India as they DO advertise their cancellation costs and they were only providing what was requested.

 

It is very simple. They should make it a regulation that all agents and airlines MUST tell you ALL terms and conditions BEFORE you book, and in turn, this should be signed by the customer, or no deal.

 

Besides, Agents will soon realise that they are annoying the travellers who pay for their bread and butter. If they insist they are right, let them. I will deal with Airlines directly from now on. It's cheaper in the long run and agents don't care about us anyway......obviously, just the money. What a shocker!

 

It's supposed to be about seeing and sharing the World we live in people! Not your bottom line..................

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

Ah, Thailand! Another traveller I persume.

 

I agree that the cancellation charges (ie admin fees etc ) are ridiculous. If they can prove that this is what it costs to simply cancel a ticket, then I would pay. What is the process here? What, do travel agents make £50 an hour? How long does it actually take to cancel a ticket for someone?

 

I am not cheap - I do not expect a free service. Agents just take advantage. Insurance is a rip off. If an agent provided me with excellent service, then I would be more than happy to pay for said service.

 

Also, I never disputed paying Air India as they DO advertise their cancellation costs and they were only providing what was requested.

 

It is very simple. They should make it a regulation that all agents and airlines MUST tell you ALL terms and conditions BEFORE you book, and in turn, this should be signed by the customer, or no deal.

 

Besides, Agents will soon realise that they are annoying the travellers who pay for their bread and butter. If they insist they are right, let them. I will deal with Airlines directly from now on. It's cheaper in the long run and agents don't care about us anyway......obviously, just the money. What a shocker!

 

It's supposed to be about seeing and sharing the World we live in people! Not your bottom line..................

Hi

well one reply you say will not reply, then the next you are, make up your mind Sir, or Don't male your mind Sir,

Are you replying or arn't you