New strategy for Allocation Questionnaires

[claire lloyd]

Hi Gary,

 

nearly done with the court bundle! i've tried to print off the link to the "Autralian Default charges report" to use as a supporting doc to my statement of evidence, but the link doesn't seem to work. I can't find that doc in the court bundle. Can you help?

 

 

thanks

CLaire

[progenic7]

Claire

 

im not sure if you are referring to small claims track, but if so a district judge will discount any "similar fact" evidence as irrelevant. Even though the burden of proof is somewhat lessened in the small claims, the judge will only deal with directly relevant evidence in your case.

 

sorry to be the bringer of bad news

[alimehmet]

Good. Which court was it? Fast track or small claims?

 

Here's what you need;

 

a) Your schedule;

 

b) Your statements showing the charges. Alternatively the list of charges which the bank provided under your S.A.R - (Subject Access Request);

 

c) A statement of evidence

 

d) All the statutues and case law on which your claim relies. Ie, UTCCR's, UCTA's, SOGA, case law, etc. You'll find all of this in the Basic Court Bundle

 

Gary do you mind if i PM you?

[mcuth]

A reference was made to Haydn's case in an earlier post on this thread and I would be interested to read more, especially if contractual interest was not awarded / thrown out etc. I'd like to read more but am struggling to find a link, any chance of a leg-up? Thanks.

 

Haydn's stuff about the CMC (and CI discussion with the judge) can be found on this thread.

 

Cheers

 

Michael

[Destinyofsouls]

I was speaking with someone at the weekend who is using this site to claim. He submitted the AQ as in this thread, but the courts have asked him to pay another £35 as it is deemed as an application. If he does not want to pay the 335 he must not use this method again

 

His mate tried the 'strike out defence' method using the Mullen case, but he too got the same reply. If you don't want it treated as an application, don't ask the judge to consider an order.

 

Any advice?

[maxine989]

Can this Strategy be edited and used on a credit card claim... or should it be left as it is?

[Will Scarlet]

mcuth - thanks. I remembered that from last year and didn't have a clue where to find it. My memory is now refreshed and, having seen that other people have been successful using this new stategy, I've plucked up the courage to give it a go. I am convinced that all of the banks' legal representatives must be inundated with cases so there is a good chance that they will default. If not, I'm prepared to battle it all the way.

[GaryH]

I was speaking with someone at the weekend who is using this site to claim. He submitted the AQ as in this thread, but the courts have asked him to pay another £35 as it is deemed as an application. If he does not want to pay the 335 he must not use this method again

Which court? I'm very surprised at this TBH and its the first time I've heard of it - as I understand it the AQ is exactly the place for proposing how the claim should proceed and requesting information which should be supplied by the other side. In fact the parties have a duty to help further the overriding objective's, which I would argue is precisely what we are doing by proposing these directions. Plus there is the duty to mitigate losses, and to save expense - making an application for the proposal of directions does'nt exactly sit with these principles IMHO, when they can just as easily be proposed on the AQ.

 

If it were me I think I'd write a very polite letter back to the court and re-iterate this.

 

Can this Strategy be edited and used on a credit card claim... or should it be left as it is?

 

Yes, its fine for credit cards too.

[TUTTSI]

GaryH - there has been mention in the first few pages of this thread that one of the "cons" of using this new AQ strategy was if you were applying contractual interest. I am at AQ stage with Lloyds (SC&M) and, would be keen to speed the process up if at all possible. I am applying contractual interest (have not applied for CCA as well but should probably have requested this in the alternative, not sure if I'm too late for that...) and, in my schedule, have applied 26.4% to each charge for the number of days it has appeared on the account being their current unauthorised borrowing rate. The logic behind this was to try and make calculation and in turn explanation more simple. A reference was made to Haydn's case in an earlier post on this thread and I would be interested to read more, especially if contractual interest was not awarded / thrown out etc. I'd like to read more but am struggling to find a link, any chance of a leg-up? Thanks.

 

Have you read BONGS HSBC thread which she won yesterday and she went back 13 years.

DS

[Will Scarlet]

dsilverstein - funny you should mention that. I've just spent the last 2-3 hours reading it. What a truly amazing effort on Bong's part.

My father has made claims against Barclays and Natwest, both claims included CI calculated in the way I described above. Barclays settled, not in full, but he did get more than charges + interest + CCA and he is currently at a stalemate with Cobbetts on a case for £20k. Cobbetts have tried every trick in the book and totally underestimated my dad who has spent the last 30 or 40 years in court rooms either fighting his own "battles" or as a professional witness for the prosecution. I'm sure it will be settled soon, again probably not for the full amount of CI but I'm sure it will be more than a standard claim. He is keen to push the boat out even further and tag on some compensation for distress just to see if he can actually get them into a court room. I don't know if anyone else has tried this but I tend to agree with him. Some people really suffer out there as a result of the banks actions and I read an article last year that quoted a couple of cases where people had committed suicide because of their debt spiralling out of control.

An interesting thought....any ideas anyone?

[TUTTSI]

dsilverstein - funny you should mention that. I've just spent the last 2-3 hours reading it. What a truly amazing effort on Bong's part.

My father has made claims against Barclays and Natwest, both claims included CI calculated in the way I described above. Barclays settled, not in full, but he did get more than charges + interest + CCA and he is currently at a stalemate with Cobbetts on a case for £20k. Cobbetts have tried every trick in the book and totally underestimated my dad who has spent the last 30 or 40 years in court rooms either fighting his own "battles" or as a professional witness for the prosecution. I'm sure it will be settled soon, again probably not for the full amount of CI but I'm sure it will be more than a standard claim. He is keen to push the boat out even further and tag on some compensation for distress just to see if he can actually get them into a court room. I don't know if anyone else has tried this but I tend to agree with him. Some people really suffer out there as a result of the banks actions and I read an article last year that quoted a couple of cases where people had committed suicide because of their debt spiralling out of control.

An interesting thought....any ideas anyone?

 

Good Luck with your claim(s) - I guess it just the case of reading up on this site, looking in the settled cases is another place to look at what others have done.

DS

[GaryH]

Which court? I'm very surprised at this TBH and its the first time I've heard of it - as I understand it the AQ is exactly the place for proposing how the claim should proceed and requesting information which should be supplied by the other side. In fact the parties have a duty to help further the overriding objective's, which I would argue is precisely what we are doing by proposing these directions. Plus there is the duty to mitigate losses, and to save expense - making an application for the proposal of directions does'nt exactly sit with these principles IMHO, when they can just as easily be proposed on the AQ.

 

If it were me I think I'd write a very polite letter back to the court and re-iterate this.

 

Further to this, see PD 26 2.2(3)(d)PRACTICE DIRECTION – CASE MANAGEMENT – PRELIMINARY STAGE: ALLOCATION AND RE-ALLOCATION - This Practice Direction supplements CPR Part 26

If your mate is going to write to the court as suggested above, quote that in the letter too.

[d1cky]

ok aq's were suposed to be in wednesday, do i jus wait to hear from the courts to see if they have submitted thiers, or do i follow up and find out if thiers has bin submitted?

[Destinyofsouls]

Hi Gary

 

It's in the Preston courts.

[bananasplit]

I have a question relating to estimated portions of claims and this draft direction.

 

I see on an earlier post that I would be 'scoring an own goal' if I put in one of these as part of my claim is an estimate. I have worked out the average per month for the two years I do have statements for and spread that across 6 years. I have requested clarification of these years charges from Barclays from my first letter to them.

 

However I dont want to score an own goal!!

 

If I amended point a) of the draft as below, would that protect me?

 

a) A schedule setting out each charge repayment of which is sought, showing the date and amount for that charge being made, and calculations for any estimated portion of the claim;

 

(apologies if this is discussed elsewhere in the thread, ive searched and cant find it).

[Destinyofsouls]

Further to this, see PD 26 2.2(3)(d)PRACTICE DIRECTION – CASE MANAGEMENT – PRELIMINARY STAGE: ALLOCATION AND RE-ALLOCATION - This Practice Direction supplements CPR Part 26

If your mate is going to write to the court as suggested above, quote that in the letter too.

__________________

Gary,

That is spot on! Thank you very much for that. I think the court is wrong and I will tell him to do as you say.

[dickeggsy]

just got in from work to find a letter from court.

the defendant is ordered to pay the claimant full amount forthwith.

it also states warning if you ignore this order goods may be removed and sold or other enforcemt proceedings may be taken against you.

so just phoned krysta at barclays and she told me she would ring back.

literally just spoke to her two minutes ago .

she said she could see were they had gone wrong and as soon as she recieves a letter from the court the money will be debited to my account .

so it looks like i have finally won.phew.

but you never know.

[maxine989]

Thanks for getting back to me Gary regarding using the strategy on credit card AQ's... I am going to get my form ready now.

 

Maxine

[GaryH]

ok aq's were suposed to be in wednesday, do i jus wait to hear from the courts to see if they have submitted thiers, or do i follow up and find out if thiers has bin submitted?

Hi d1cky. Ring the court to find out if its been submitted if you like, but the AQ deadline is'nt very strict unfortunately. They are likely to get an extra week or so, after which the court should issue them an unless order - I.e. submit within 7 days or struck out.

I have a question relating to estimated portions of claims and this draft direction.

 

I see on an earlier post that I would be 'scoring an own goal' if I put in one of these as part of my claim is an estimate. I have worked out the average per month for the two years I do have statements for and spread that across 6 years. I have requested clarification of these years charges from Barclays from my first letter to them.

 

However I dont want to score an own goal!!

 

If I amended point a) of the draft as below, would that protect me?

 

a) A schedule setting out each charge repayment of which is sought, showing the date and amount for that charge being made, and calculations for any estimated portion of the claim;

 

(apologies if this is discussed elsewhere in the thread, ive searched and cant find it).

No - I don't think this is feasable TBH. You'll also need to prove each and every charge has been made as per clause b) - which is either statements or SAR info. Why is your claim estimated, did'nt they comply with the SAR?

Further to this, see PD 26 2.2(3)(d)PRACTICE DIRECTION – CASE MANAGEMENT – PRELIMINARY STAGE: ALLOCATION AND RE-ALLOCATION - This Practice Direction supplements CPR Part 26

If your mate is going to write to the court as suggested above, quote that in the letter too.

__________________

Gary,

That is spot on! Thank you very much for that. I think the court is wrong and I will tell him to do as you say.

No problem. As I said though, make it polite - very respectfully point out that the CPR provides that case management directions may be proposed on the AQ. Don't tell them they are wrong as such.

just got in from work to find a letter from court.

the defendant is ordered to pay the claimant full amount forthwith.

it also states warning if you ignore this order goods may be removed and sold or other enforcemt proceedings may be taken against you.

so just phoned krysta at barclays and she told me she would ring back.

literally just spoke to her two minutes ago .

she said she could see were they had gone wrong and as soon as she recieves a letter from the court the money will be debited to my account .

so it looks like i have finally won.phew.

but you never know.

Excellent - so the court has granted summary judgement? If you could PM me the wording of the order that would be great.

Thanks for getting back to me Gary regarding using the strategy on credit card AQ's... I am going to get my form ready now.

 

Maxine

[bananasplit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bananasplit

I have a question relating to estimated portions of claims and this draft direction.

 

I see on an earlier post that I would be 'scoring an own goal' if I put in one of these as part of my claim is an estimate. I have worked out the average per month for the two years I do have statements for and spread that across 6 years. I have requested clarification of these years charges from Barclays from my first letter to them.

 

However I dont want to score an own goal!!

 

If I amended point a) of the draft as below, would that protect me?

 

a) A schedule setting out each charge repayment of which is sought, showing the date and amount for that charge being made, and calculations for any estimated portion of the claim;

 

(apologies if this is discussed elsewhere in the thread, ive searched and cant find it).

 

No - I don't think this is feasable TBH. You'll also need to prove each and every charge has been made as per clause b) - which is either statements or SAR info. Why is your claim estimated, did'nt they comply with the SAR?

 

 

Thanks Gary.

Unfortunately I wasnt following the advice from this site at that time (its caused me no end of trouble!) and was under the impression that a clearly calculated estimate would suffice, so the only SAR was a few lines in the first letter, not a Data Prot. order.

As im currently filling in the AQ, Im thinking its too late for that now?

 

Ive just been thinking and would it be better for me to send off a DP SAR now and not add any type of disclosure request to the AQ. Its likely a court date would be set for after I have received the SAR info, and then when I have that, submit a N244 App Notice to revise the amount 'in light of new information' and request the new Draft Direction?

Im sending off the SAR on this site today either way.

[sg51bmw]

Hi

 

OK just got AQ, mine is N150, my wife got N149,both our claims are less than 5000?

 

Hey ho, anyway onto more litigious matters, section F on the N150 got the proposed draft order and the additional comments for Section H however - in laymans terms what does the claimant need to provide;

 

I get the copies of statements and the excel spreadsheet for charges, however have a problem with -

 

A statement of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that the charges are irrecoverable as penalties or otherwise

 

Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon. what decided cases? Or did I miss something

 

If any one can point me in the right direction, as we both want to get our facts, stratedgy etc right.....we dont want to score the own goal that screws it for everyone

 

Bst rgds

sg51bmw:o

[Will Scarlet]

I'd also be interested to hear comments on "decided cases". It's a bit frustrating knowing that some of the monumental battles fought by others on this site are not citeable because they happened outside a court room and no precedent has been set. Are these "decided cases" in fact the cases we are quoting to back up our arguments (Dunlop et al)?

[progenic7]

will scarlet,

decided cases can be very useful for us in a court be civil or criminal, however 99.9% of civil cases are unrecorded.

A civil case would only be recorded if for some reason it ended up going to a higher court, Court of appeal for example.

Having said that any civil case recorded or not is citable to a judge, though if unrecorded may prove hard for him/her to understand the ruling.

The majority of citable cases referred to on CAG ie Beaman v ARTS Ltd [1949] 1 KB 550, 565-566, a judge would search from the legal volumes either by any citation order...Claimant Defendant, date, volume number, court division, page numbers ect ect. In a case with volume numbers and court divisions/dates ect written behind them this itself shows they have been properly recorded, an unrecorded case would merely show as Beaman v Arts Ltd. Any case material that is hoped to be used for reference or to aid your claim in court is always better to be of the recorded variety, a judge will always hold these cases in higher esteme.

If or when should i say a case actually gets through on the principle of bank fees, it will almost certainly get recorded, because of the thousands and thousands of caes that go through the court system only a few of them are worth recording. The scrict rules on this are as follows: To merit reporting, a case must either introduce a new principle or a new rule of law, materially modify an existing principle of law or settle a doubtful question of law. Also included are questions of interpretation of statutes and important cases illustrating new applications of accepted principles. Thus a casewhich depends on its own particular facts is not reportable. Any case going through the house of lords will always be recorded (first time anyway) and any other important high profile cases.

Hope this helps

Johnny

[Will Scarlet]

p7 - wow, thanks for that, very informative. So I was right in thinking that the "decided cases" are cases that have already been heard and have set precedents that can be referred to in future cases. I haven't come accross Beaman vs. Arts - is their a link / thread I could have a nose at? I've seen references made to Dunlop v New Garage and Robinson v Harman but Beaman is new to me and I want all the ammo I can get my hands on, if relevant. Thanks again.

[progenic7]

p7 - wow, thanks for that, very informative. So I was right in thinking that the "decided cases" are cases that have already been heard and have set precedents that can be referred to in future cases. I haven't come accross Beaman vs. Arts - is their a link / thread I could have a nose at? I've seen references made to Dunlop v New Garage and Robinson v Harman but Beaman is new to me and I want all the ammo I can get my hands on, if relevant. Thanks again.

 

 

Yes thats correct a case thats already had a ruling on a point of law will carry alot of weight next time around, unless of course the defence has a better case that shows the contrary. The law is often very contradictory in nature and case law research takes quite alot of time, but is worth it in the long run, especially if it wins you the case.

 

Beaman v Arts is a case i looked into a while ago in pursute of bank charge claims. Google it and have a read up, you may be surprised !

 

Best of luck