UKPC/PARKING PATROL LTD UK/BW windscreen PCN PAPLOC now claimform - appeal+IPC both refused - Private car park 325 Greenford Rd, Greenford

[BUNNY36]

Hi there, 

I'd really appreciate some advice about my case:

A Notice to Keeper was received from UK Parking Patrol office LTD dated chasing me for an unpaid parking charge of £100. 

The driver had received a ticket to windscreen a few weeks earlier but ignored it.

It was parked on a forecourt in front of a row of shops. They went into one shop for 15 mins and came back to a parking charge notice on the windscreen. Apparently the forecourt only belongs to one of the shops on the forecourt solely.

The driver went into the land owner's shop on the day and explained the situation. They said "oh if you had come in and let us know you were a customer of next door we would have stop the ticket from being issued."

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and £100 seemed really unjustified for an honest mistake.

I've attached the sign below  - it mentions a permit but this is not accurate, any customer of the landowner shop can park while shopping but it wasn't clear who that was. 

I noted that the ticket placed on the windscreen was issued at "2:45pm" however the notice to keeper stated that the contravention took place at 02:45. Bit of a technicality but this implies 2am not 2pm,

I decided to appeal saying that the alleged contravention did not take place as my car was parked on my drive overnight between 2-3am. As I responded outside of the 21 day appeal period they just ignored my appeal. 

When Debt recovery Plus (DRP) started to hound me, I explained to them that I was appealing the case. They put my case on hold for a couple of weeks but then started to hound me again after they checked the date of my appeal and said I had no right to appeal and demanded payment immediately.

I have ignored their letters which appear to be deliberately scaremongering. Last conversation I had with them I said that I didn't feel the PCN was justified and if they recommended court action then so be it.

I was certain that UKPC owed me a response to the representations made as the IPC code of conduct of states:
 

- members internal procedures should allow for appeals to be made outside of the initial time period in exceptional circumstances.

 

- Recipients of a parking charge should be allowed to make representations regarding the issue of that parking charge

 

-These representations should be appropriately responded to within 28 days.

I appealed to the IPC who rejected the complaint saying that I the keeper was only notified of the charge after the appeal period and I suspected the alleged contravention did not take place, my appeal should be considered. The IPC responded saying that:

1) UKPC have shown them photographs of the ticket being placed on the windscreen (I have not seen these, nor do they comment on the time they were taken)

2) My appeal went into UKPC's junk folder and they have an automated message saying the appeals inbox is not manned (this is untrue; at the time I sent the appeal to appeals@parking-tickets.co.uk - no message was returned to me but they have recently added this automated message.

My questions are:

1) What should my next course of action be?  Wait and see if UKPC issues a CCJ?  (I don't want bad credit but I guess I would pay if it come  to this -  to avoid it on my credit file)

2) Should I follow up with the IPC or UKPC directly and ask for the photographic evidence?  (photos certainly would have been taken at 14:45 and not 02:45 as stated on the NTK)

 

3) Give up and just set up a payment plan with DRP? 

 

4) Anyone been in a similar position

- does UKPC give up eventually?

What are my chances in court? (really don't want a CCJ on file for 6 years)

Thank you in advance for your advice and guidance!
 

parking sign .pdf

[BUNNY36]

Thanks @Nicky Boy

 

• 
   

 

For a windscreen ticket (Notice To Driver) 

 

1 The date of infringement? 7th July 22
 

2 Have you yet appealed to the parking company yet? Y (however outside of 21 day appeal period after NTK received - no response)

 

Has there been a response? No

 

Have you received a Notice To Keeper? (NTK) [must be received by you between 29-56 days] Y
 

What date is on it? 10th of August 22 

Did the NTK provide photographic evidence? No (see post above, IPC complaint response mentions they have photos of ticket on windscreen but I have not seen these)

 

3 Did the NTK mention Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) [Y/N?] N
 

4 If you appealed after receiving the NTK,

did the parking company give you any information regarding the further appeals process?

[it is well known that parking companies will reject any appeal whatever the circumstances] Y on NTK it says appeals can be considered outside of the initial 21 day period in exceptional circumstances, no further details given.
 

5 Who is the parking company? Parking Patrol LTD UK
 

6. Where exactly [Carpark name and town] did you park? Private car park 325 Greenford Rd, Greenford

 

Parking Appeal 12:8:22.pdf IPC complaint response.pdf

[BUNNY36]

That sounds wise, thanks @honeybee13

 

[BUNNY36]

Oh, glad to hear it not fatal! 

Thank you for the advice regarding CCJ's @FTMDave really helpful!

 

I've attached the tickets as advised by yourself and @dx100uk. Unfortunately file is too big to upload as a pdf document.

 

Here are links to the documents:

 

1. Windscreen ticket

2. Notice to Keeper
Greatly appreciate your time and advice

[BUNNY36]

Hi @brassnecked

Thanks for taking a look. 1719 is the parking location number. 

They definitely have my details as the keeper via the DVLA. Unfortunately I added insult to injury by confirming my email address etc. However, I have maintained the position that I am the registered owner of the vehicle and was only made aware of the contravention when the NTK arrived. I chosen not to name the driver of the vehicle as they are a relative and I don't want them to be hounded either.

 

[BUNNY36]

@FTMDave Incredibly helpful thank you very much for taking the time give such a detailed response!

I've learned a lot from this, as you've all said I've made a few mistakes as a newbie that I hope to never make again.

@Nicky Boy and @brassnecked can I understand a bit more about the reason for writing to them about not accepting further emails? They have never emailed me directly. However, I did send my appeal to their appeals inbox (which they never acknowledged) from my email address. I'm not keen to make any further contact with them unless absolutely needed. 

Thank again all, really helped to make things much clearer.

[BUNNY36]

@lookinforinforeally sorry about that  - I disabled the links as I was advised probably not best to have them on here. I've attached the pdf's below. 

 

@dx100uk and @Nicky Boy that makes sense, thank you. I'll take your advice and write and letter proof with of postage. 

 

and thank you @brassnecked too!

 

@lookinforinfoI've also given access to the drive as the resolution of the small file size is not great!

 

@lookinforinfo I can go back and get a clearer picture of the sign if needed. I've made the one I have a bit bigger and also uploaded a picture of the forecourt. There are 3 shops along there, a deli, the plumbing shop (landowner) and car show room. The driver was visiting the car showroom and parked in the empty space you can see in the picture.

 

 

merged pdfs (1).pdf

[BUNNY36]

Thank you all for your time and advice, really helpful.

 

@Nicky Boygreat spot it’s unclear where that signage pertains to and I agree you would presume 325 is the alley way.

 

so my checklist for now based in the great advice above is:

 

1. See if the landowner will cancel the ticket.

 

2. Request that no correspondence comes to me  from UKPPO Ltd via email 

 

3. Ignore all correspondence apart from UKPPO limited and debt recovery plus unless it’s a letter before claim form.

 

Let me know if I’ve missed anything!

 

 

[BUNNY36]

Hi Everyone,

 

Just an update.  No joy getting the ticket cancelled. DR+ eventually stopped but then I received this letter from legal team. Am I right in thinking they'll issue a Letter before claim form if I don't respond by the 6th ofApril?

 

Thanks in advance 

bw - compressed.pdf

[BUNNY36]

thank you @honeybee13

[BUNNY36]

Hi everyone,

 

As anticipated, I just received a 'Letter of Claim'  today from BW legal dated April 6 saying that if I don't agree to pay the now £160 by May 6, my case could escalate to a county court claim.  

 

Plan for next steps is as follows:

 

1) Not to complete the reply forms

2) Submit an SAR to UK PP'S  DPO -- They have an email AND postal address  so I will send request to both, along with a copy of my V5C as proof of ID asking for:

• What proof they have that the vehicle was parked illegally i.e all data/evidence held and a full copy of the PCN, NTK.
• Copy of all photos/video footage taken on the alleged date of contravention.
• All letters/emails sent and received, including any appeal correspondence.

3) Write back to BW legal with the following snotty letter:

 

Thanks for your 'Letter of Claim'. It is hilarious that you actually think I'd take this nonsense seriously and cough up. There is absolutely no intention of contributing to your healthy income by paying the sum mentioned in relation to your client, UK Parking Patrol Office LTD. The fact that you believe people will fall for this type of rubbish is beyond me. 

 

Regarding your overinflated, trumped up charges, I suggest you and your greedy clients read the Protection of Freedoms Act Schedule 4. I am fully aware your claim has no legal basis and will not hold up in a court of law. No judge in this land would take this claim seriously and It would be a complete waste of time and court fees.

 

I could go on, but I have better things to do with my time. In conclusion, I am not paying any silly claims, and I will not be responding to any more of these harassment letters unless you wish to waste the court's time, where I shall be sure to request an unreasonable costs order under CPR 27.14(2)(g).

 

Please be aware that I have sent your client a Subject Access Request.  I am seeking debt advice but I deny any debt and the case must be put 'on hold' for not less than 30 days under the PAP for debt claims 2017.

 

 

Any further advice? You've all been incredibly helpful to date so thank you 

[BUNNY36]

Thank you both will definitely send the letter nearer the deadline. 

 

The advice about a SAR from UKPC was taken from a newbie thread on a Money saving expert forum. They advise that this helps you see all of the data they have on file, which they may rely on if this does go to court (I presume that the benefit of requesting it at this stage is that it is far enough in advance for it to be actioned before having to complete a claim form). 

 

Would making this kind if request cause any harm?

[BUNNY36]

@dx100uk Really helpful, thank you 

[BUNNY36]

Thank you @FTMDave - sending this off today!

[BUNNY36]

Hello!

I'd appreciate some advice please. I've received the dreaded county court claim form.

I intend to fight it - I know I don't have a huge amount of time but would appreciate some advice from the experienced caggers. 

I plan to use the following previous advice to help formulate my argument, as well as some of the points about signage/confusion over the address. 

 

Interestingly, I also when back to the area recently and  parked. I went into the plumbing shop and said, "i'm here to purchase a shower head is it fine to park?" and he said "yes, don't worry i'm the person who issues the tickets, as long as you let me know it's fine" Their address is registered as 331-333 Greenford Rd. Extremely confusing! As was pointed out previously from photos it looks as though 325 Greenford road doesn't even exist.

Lastly, will I see UKPP's evidence before my day in court? If they have photos of the vehicle parked (which would be at the wrong time), would I see this before hand? 

Thanks in advance for your help. 

 

 

[BUNNY36]

Thank you @dx100uk

 

Northampton   -  COUNTY COURT BUSINESS CENTRE 

Name of the Claimant :  UK PARKING PATROL OFFICE LTD, 7 CHRISTIE WAY, CHRISTIE FIELDS, MANCHESTER 

Claimants Solicitors:  BW LEGAL, ENTERPRISE HOUSE, 1 APEX VIEW, LEEDS, LS11 9BH 

Date of issue –  19TH JUNE 2023 

Date for AOS - 8TH JULY 2023

Date to submit Defence - JULY 21ST (4PM)

What is the claim for -

1. The claim is for the sum of £107 being due from the defendant in respect of a penalty charge notice (PCN) for a contractual breach which occurred on 7th July 2022  in the private car park/land at 325 Greenford road, Greenford in relation to a [car make model + registration].

2. The PCN was issued as the driver failed to comply with the terms and conditions as displayed.

3. Despite demands the charge remains unpaid,

The claimant also includes statutory interest pursuant to section 69 of the county courts act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum  (a daily interest rate of £0.02) from [date of alleged contravention -  date claim submitted to court - 3 days].

The claimant also claims £60.00 recovery costs as set out in the terms and conditions of the ATA AoS code of practice. 

What is the value of the claim?

Amount Claimed - £167

court fees  - £35

legal rep fees  - £50

Total Amount - £ 252

Have you moved since the issuance of the PCN? N 

Did you receive a letter of Claim With A reply Pack wanting I&E etc about 1mth before the claimform? Y - April 6th 2023 

[BUNNY36]

Planning to complete the AoS with following generic points:

 

1.  The Defendant is the recorded keeper of [motor vehicle].

 

2.  It is denied that the Defendant entered into a contract with the Claimant.

 

3.  As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance.  The Claimant was simply contracted by the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the car park is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner.  Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. 

 

4.  In any case it is denied that the Defendant broke the terms of a contract with the Claimant.

 

5.  The Claimant is attempting double recovery by adding an additional sum not included in the original offer.  i presume this is applicable as they are charging £50 legal representative fees ?

 

6.  The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety.  It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all.

[BUNNY36]

Thanks again for all of your help, I've now completed the AoS via the MCOL website. 

I'm putting together the CPR 31:14 request 

Based on the template linked above i'm requesting the following which I believe are all applicable in my case - 

1. The contract between UK Parking Patrol LTD and the landowner that assigns the right to enter into contracts with the public and make claims in their own name.

2. Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and Country Planning Act 2007 

3. Copies of the notice to driver, notice to keeper and any other correspondence from UK Parking Patrol Office LTD and BW Legal to the defendant which they intend to rely upon in court.

Is it worth including a fourth point?

" Copies of any other documents that the claimant will rely on in court as evidence"

I just noted that CPR 31.6 mentions that this forms part of disclosure

[BUNNY36]

Hi all, apologies for the delay in responding. 

Thanks for your replies. Please see the exact figures below. The instructions on the claim form thread shared above advised numbers to be rounded up/down. 

 

Amount Claimed - £166.90

court fees  - £35

legal rep fees  - £50

Total Amount - £ 251.90

 

I have sent the CPR 31.14  request. The deadline to submit my defence is 4pm on July 21st, I plan to do this well in advance by the end of this week. My understanding is that this should not be done online but instead by post on the form received? 

@FTMDave the parking ticket was for £100 but would have been £60 if paid within the discount period. It seems a little excessive to me but would this still count as double recovery?

 

[BUNNY36]

Here is a copy of the POC

Claim form _redacted .pdf

[BUNNY36]

thank you for clarifying @dx100uk

[BUNNY36]

Hi Everyone,

The deadline for filing is this Friday!

How early is early in terms of filing? I don't want to miss it! Is it fine to file today?

As advised I'm sticking to the 6 bullet points below.

Can I check that there will definitely be the opportunity for me to expand on these points before a hearing?

Will UKPP at some point have to turn over any evidence they plan to use and will I have the opportunity to respond?

I've tried to read as much as I can about the 'legality' of the additional recovery fees being charged.

I've decided to keep point 5 in as I can’t see anything that legally prescribes that they are allowed to add recovery costs at this stage.

As the claimant has pointed out the £60 fee has been added based on their own ATA AOS (IPC) code of conduct and ‘the terms and conditions’ of presumably the contract that I did not enter into!

defence

1.  The Defendant is the recorded keeper of [vehicle registration]

2.  It is denied that the Defendant entered into a contract with the Claimant.

3.  As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance.  The Claimant was simply contracted by the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the car park is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner. Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. 

4.  In any case it is denied that the Defendant broke the terms of a contract with the Claimant.

5.  The Claimant is attempting double recovery by adding an additional sum not included in the original offer.   

6.  The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety.  It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all.

 

Lastly I just wanted to clarify if my understanding of the following is correct (this won't be included in my defence  - I'm just trying to think a few steps ahead):

 

I believe that unless the claimant can produce a contract demonstrating that they have the authority to form a contract with the public on the landowner’s behalf, they cannot legally bring a claim against me. I have proof that a request for a copy of any contract between UKPP and the landowner was posted on the 27th June 2023 but has been ignored. Should I mention for the purpose of the court that my CPR 31.14 request has not been responded to?

I also note that in order for any contract to be deemed legal, the signage would have to meet certain requirements. I have taken photos of the signage (previously shared) which is appears inadequate, mainly in terms of positioning, ambiguity. 

I have recently been to the location to purchase something from BJ plumbing ‘the landowners.’ I was told verbally by the person who issues the tickets behind the counter that it’s fine for customers to park there and “they won’t get a ticket” if he knows they are in the shop. However the signage says that parking is for “parking is restricted to vehicles displaying a valid parking patrol permit only”. As no permits seem to exist and the stated terms and conditions are not consistently enforced, is there anything I could or should do to highlight this in advance of a court hearing? Note the landowner is still not co-operating. I have been told multiple times he is away and unable to deal with any requests relating to parking disputes?

Apologies for the long one today! Just trying to make sure I don't give these fleecers any opportunity to win!

Thanks in advance  

[BUNNY36]

Ok brilliant thank you. So I can file defence as is today?

[BUNNY36]

Thanks guys, defence submitted.

[BUNNY36]

Hi there, 

BW legal have responded to my CPR 31.14 request!  -  Please see attached, which includes "all PCN evidence"

They have since sent me a letter advising the will proceed to court, feel things will not go in my favour and have given me one more opportunity to pay 

I wanted to start preparing for this. I've noticed a few inconsistencies in the evidence they've sent through.

The NTK   -  1719 325 Greenford Rd but the camera's showing the vehicle state 327 A Greenford Rd

Along with the difference in time on the NTK versus the original PCN (15:45 vs. 03:45) and again ("illegally parked" vs. unauthorised parking)

I wondered If anyone can spot anything else that might be useful in my defence as the registered keeper? 

Thanks,

Bunny 

BW legal evidence 2-compressed.pdf

 

On 08/11/2022 at 12:36, Nicky Boy said:

Just out of interest, the address on their paperwork "325 Greenford Road" doesn't seem to actually exist?

Even the OP's own photograph shows this.

323 > GAP > 327

And Google can't seem to find it...

So, the "No Unauthorised Parking" sign looks like an entry sign, for what appears to be a car park at the rear, through the "gap".

I also remember this post from @Nicky Boy who spotted this a while ago! 

Is there anything I could/should get from the local council records to highlight that 325 doesn't exist?