UKPC/PARKING PATROL LTD UK/BW windscreen PCN PAPLOC now claimform - appeal+IPC both refused - Private car park 325 Greenford Rd, Greenford

[lookinforinfo]

Bunny36 thank you for the clarification and the photos.

The PCN should say "Notice to Keeper " rather than Reminder Notice.

Might be a bit of a quibble legally but in PoFA 2012  Schedule4 S6 [1][a]

"(a)has given a notice to driver in accordance with paragraph 7, followed by a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 8".that is the first query as to whether the PCN is compliant.

The second query is the fact that the time is wrong. The car was nowhere near 325 Greenford road at 3am

The third query is that the car was not parked at 325 Greenford road but 327 Greenford road

the fourth query is that there are no photographs of where the car was parked-breach of PoFA

the fifth query-there is no period of parking mentioned which is a PoFA requirement. Did the car stop for 30 seconds, two minutes or an hour and a half?

sixth query-the wording in Sch 4 S8 [2][f] does not include the words in brackets "he creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;" It should.

Seventh query there is no mention of Debt Recovery fees on this sub paragraph. In any event it misstates the situation as on the signage it is the driver's responsibility not the keeper's.

eighth query on the Notice to driver the breach is for being "illegally parked". parking is a civil offence so cannot be described as parking illegally.

That is more than enough to show the incompetence of UKPP in issuing PCNs. They cannot transfer liability to he keeper only the driver is responsible.

Here I would go further and say that the keeper's GDPR has been breached since the car was not parked where the PCN said nor was it parked at that time.

[lookinforinfo]

That was a good spot Nickyboy about 325 Greenford road.

However there is information about a 325a Greenford road which would lead one to suppose there must be or must have been a number 325.

 

Wm Glass has their registered address as 325a greenford road and Tuxa , a property information company  have a property listing for 325a.

https://tuxa.co.uk/property/325a-greenford-road/greenford/ub6-8re

 

 

[BUNNY36]

Thank you all for your time and advice, really helpful.

 

@Nicky Boygreat spot it’s unclear where that signage pertains to and I agree you would presume 325 is the alley way.

 

so my checklist for now based in the great advice above is:

 

1. See if the landowner will cancel the ticket.

 

2. Request that no correspondence comes to me  from UKPPO Ltd via email 

 

3. Ignore all correspondence apart from UKPPO limited and debt recovery plus unless it’s a letter before claim form.

 

Let me know if I’ve missed anything!

 

 

[honeybee13]

Being picky but trying to help, a letter before claim and a claim form are different things.

 

HB

[brassnecked]

A properly constructed and Pre Action Protocol compliant Letter Of Claim MUST be sent before any Claimform can be issued giving at least 30 days to reply to it If they don't follow the PAP they are on shaky ground.  Its another reason why any change of address must be communicated to Fleecer's as they send LOC to old address get no reply, send claimform, and bingo a nice (for them) back door CCJ.

[BankFodder]

open

[BUNNY36]

Hi Everyone,

 

Just an update.  No joy getting the ticket cancelled. DR+ eventually stopped but then I received this letter from legal team. Am I right in thinking they'll issue a Letter before claim form if I don't respond by the 6th ofApril?

 

Thanks in advance 

bw - compressed.pdf

[honeybee13]

It's a threatogram, yes.

 

They may be planning to send more of them but as it's BW Legal, a letter of claim could be next, as you say. You might want to start researching 'snotty letter' on CAG because that's what you'll need if they do send a letter before claim.

 

HB

[BUNNY36]

thank you @honeybee13

[BUNNY36]

Hi everyone,

 

As anticipated, I just received a 'Letter of Claim'  today from BW legal dated April 6 saying that if I don't agree to pay the now £160 by May 6, my case could escalate to a county court claim.  

 

Plan for next steps is as follows:

 

1) Not to complete the reply forms

2) Submit an SAR to UK PP'S  DPO -- They have an email AND postal address  so I will send request to both, along with a copy of my V5C as proof of ID asking for:

• What proof they have that the vehicle was parked illegally i.e all data/evidence held and a full copy of the PCN, NTK.
• Copy of all photos/video footage taken on the alleged date of contravention.
• All letters/emails sent and received, including any appeal correspondence.

3) Write back to BW legal with the following snotty letter:

 

Thanks for your 'Letter of Claim'. It is hilarious that you actually think I'd take this nonsense seriously and cough up. There is absolutely no intention of contributing to your healthy income by paying the sum mentioned in relation to your client, UK Parking Patrol Office LTD. The fact that you believe people will fall for this type of rubbish is beyond me. 

 

Regarding your overinflated, trumped up charges, I suggest you and your greedy clients read the Protection of Freedoms Act Schedule 4. I am fully aware your claim has no legal basis and will not hold up in a court of law. No judge in this land would take this claim seriously and It would be a complete waste of time and court fees.

 

I could go on, but I have better things to do with my time. In conclusion, I am not paying any silly claims, and I will not be responding to any more of these harassment letters unless you wish to waste the court's time, where I shall be sure to request an unreasonable costs order under CPR 27.14(2)(g).

 

Please be aware that I have sent your client a Subject Access Request.  I am seeking debt advice but I deny any debt and the case must be put 'on hold' for not less than 30 days under the PAP for debt claims 2017.

 

 

Any further advice? You've all been incredibly helpful to date so thank you 

[dx100uk]

not sure about doing anything other than replying with a snotty letter and i'd not do that until very close to the 30 days deadline bunny.

 

dx

 

[brassnecked]

Yes snotty letter only and close to the 30 days by post with free proof of posting

[BUNNY36]

Thank you both will definitely send the letter nearer the deadline. 

 

The advice about a SAR from UKPC was taken from a newbie thread on a Money saving expert forum. They advise that this helps you see all of the data they have on file, which they may rely on if this does go to court (I presume that the benefit of requesting it at this stage is that it is far enough in advance for it to be actioned before having to complete a claim form). 

 

Would making this kind if request cause any harm?

[dx100uk]

that wont stop it happening!! 

 

and there will be no additional info that they hold on you that you've not already got. you are not missing any 'paperwork' you have the pcn the ntk and the letter of claim. 

 

they also recommend appealing... 

 

you do ofcourse realise that its done purposefully because 9/10 it will lead to a court claim and then their scammers pm people and charge fees to 'defend' them in court.

 

we are free and win most claims if people follow our rules of engagement and no play their cards early !!

 

dx

 

[BUNNY36]

@dx100uk Really helpful, thank you 

[FTMDave]

Your snotty letter is superb - but end it at  where I shall be sure to request an unreasonable costs order under CPR 27.14(2)(g).

 

Write at the bottom COPIED TO UK PARKING PATROL OFFICE LTD and invest in two 2nd class stamps and get two free Certificates of Posting from the post office - at the end of the 30 day period.

 

 

[BUNNY36]

Thank you @FTMDave - sending this off today!

[BUNNY36]

Hello!

I'd appreciate some advice please. I've received the dreaded county court claim form.

I intend to fight it - I know I don't have a huge amount of time but would appreciate some advice from the experienced caggers. 

I plan to use the following previous advice to help formulate my argument, as well as some of the points about signage/confusion over the address. 

 

Interestingly, I also when back to the area recently and  parked. I went into the plumbing shop and said, "i'm here to purchase a shower head is it fine to park?" and he said "yes, don't worry i'm the person who issues the tickets, as long as you let me know it's fine" Their address is registered as 331-333 Greenford Rd. Extremely confusing! As was pointed out previously from photos it looks as though 325 Greenford road doesn't even exist.

Lastly, will I see UKPP's evidence before my day in court? If they have photos of the vehicle parked (which would be at the wrong time), would I see this before hand? 

Thanks in advance for your help. 

 

 

[dx100uk]

please complete this:

 

dx

 

[BUNNY36]

Thank you @dx100uk

 

Northampton   -  COUNTY COURT BUSINESS CENTRE 

Name of the Claimant :  UK PARKING PATROL OFFICE LTD, 7 CHRISTIE WAY, CHRISTIE FIELDS, MANCHESTER 

Claimants Solicitors:  BW LEGAL, ENTERPRISE HOUSE, 1 APEX VIEW, LEEDS, LS11 9BH 

Date of issue –  19TH JUNE 2023 

Date for AOS - 8TH JULY 2023

Date to submit Defence - JULY 21ST (4PM)

What is the claim for -

1. The claim is for the sum of £107 being due from the defendant in respect of a penalty charge notice (PCN) for a contractual breach which occurred on 7th July 2022  in the private car park/land at 325 Greenford road, Greenford in relation to a [car make model + registration].

2. The PCN was issued as the driver failed to comply with the terms and conditions as displayed.

3. Despite demands the charge remains unpaid,

The claimant also includes statutory interest pursuant to section 69 of the county courts act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum  (a daily interest rate of £0.02) from [date of alleged contravention -  date claim submitted to court - 3 days].

The claimant also claims £60.00 recovery costs as set out in the terms and conditions of the ATA AoS code of practice. 

What is the value of the claim?

Amount Claimed - £167

court fees  - £35

legal rep fees  - £50

Total Amount - £ 252

Have you moved since the issuance of the PCN? N 

Did you receive a letter of Claim With A reply Pack wanting I&E etc about 1mth before the claimform? Y - April 6th 2023 

[BUNNY36]

Planning to complete the AoS with following generic points:

 

1.  The Defendant is the recorded keeper of [motor vehicle].

 

2.  It is denied that the Defendant entered into a contract with the Claimant.

 

3.  As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance.  The Claimant was simply contracted by the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the car park is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner.  Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. 

 

4.  In any case it is denied that the Defendant broke the terms of a contract with the Claimant.

 

5.  The Claimant is attempting double recovery by adding an additional sum not included in the original offer.  i presume this is applicable as they are charging £50 legal representative fees ?

 

6.  The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety.  It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all.

[brassnecked]

Yes the standard 3 line defence before the deadline Less Is More at this stage

[dx100uk]

14 minutes ago, BUNNY36 said:

1. The claim is for the sum of £107 being due from the defendant in respect of a penalty charge notice (PCN)

you sure^^^

 

dx

 

[dx100uk]

dont file that defence yet....!!

pop up on the MCOL website detailed on the claimform

.

register as an individual on the Gov't Gateway Site
Go to HMRC's login page.

Click the GREEN sign in button.
Click “Create sign in details”
Enter your email address where asked.
You will now be emailed a confirmation code. ...

You will now be issued with a User ID for your government gateway account.
 note down your details inc the long gateway number given, you might need it later.
 

then log in to the MCOL Website

.

select respond to a claim and select the start AOS box.

.

then using the details required from the claimform

.

defend all

leave jurisdiction unticked.

click thru to the end

confirm and exit MCOL.

.

get a CPR 31:14 request running to the solicitors

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?486334-CPR-31.14-Request-to-use-on-receipt-of-a-PPC-(-Private-Land-Parking-Court-Claim

type your name ONLY

no need to sign anything

.

you DO NOT await the return of paperwork.

you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 from the date on the claimform.

………….
 

[BUNNY36]

Thanks again for all of your help, I've now completed the AoS via the MCOL website. 

I'm putting together the CPR 31:14 request 

Based on the template linked above i'm requesting the following which I believe are all applicable in my case - 

1. The contract between UK Parking Patrol LTD and the landowner that assigns the right to enter into contracts with the public and make claims in their own name.

2. Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and Country Planning Act 2007 

3. Copies of the notice to driver, notice to keeper and any other correspondence from UK Parking Patrol Office LTD and BW Legal to the defendant which they intend to rely upon in court.

Is it worth including a fourth point?

" Copies of any other documents that the claimant will rely on in court as evidence"

I just noted that CPR 31.6 mentions that this forms part of disclosure