Alliance 2*PCNs - PAPLOC - Wrong reg - Daymer Bay, Rock, Nr Wadebridge, Cornwall

[Edsr]

1 Date of the infringement 01.08.2022

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 05.08.202

 

3 Date received 11.08.2022
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] N
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes - two photos: 1. the point of entry via the gateway and 2. the point of exit via the gateway. Unaware whether they have any other cameas/photos. See PDF.
 

6 Have you appealed? 
Yes.

Within 24hrs of parking/paying and realising I'd entered the wrong reg number, (so well before recieving the PCN) I contacted JustPark via the app to notify them that I had entered the wrong reg number. This is partly due to the JustPark App defaulting to my oldest vehicle that I no longer own which has a similar reg number and the same VW logo next to it, and partly using it while walking in bright sunlight. So I had selected the wrong vehicle in the app. Oddly (deliberately?) it only showed one vehicle to choose from, and that was my older vehicle (so the least likely to be accurate). To have selected or even seen my current vehicle, I'd have had to select something like 'more vehicles' -  it's like they've made it deliverately counter intuitive.

I was advised by JustPark that they are unable to modify a booking made via the app, so I should wait for the PCN and then appeal. In the meantime I read up about the BPA saying minor keying errors could only be fined up to £20 to cover admin costs. 

I waited for the PCN and then appealed directly to the issuer (Alliance Parking), via their website form advising that I had accidentally entered the wrong details, but that I had in fact paid for VW registration *XX***X (X shows identical characters), and that due to the similarity (three digits and the make being the same) this was a 'Minor Keying Error' and offered to pay them the £20 admin fee to cover their costs.

 

I actually had my wife complete the form on my phone while I was driving us somewhere. I have just checked the form again (having read about not advising them who the driver was) and it appears she will have made a declaration on my behalf to say that I was the driver at the time - not sure if this invalidates the declaration though!? Also given the circumstances I don't recall exactly what was put in the form but it was very brief and along the lines of the above. 

 

I appreciate I have made several mistakes here, and it's probably too late, but I only just stubmled across this site by despararely googling different keywod combinations to try to find some proper advice!
 

Have you had a response?  Yes. They then wrote to me advising that my appeal had been unsuccessful (PDF Page 3 onwards). 

 

7 Who is the parking company? Alliance Parking

 

8. Where exactly? Daymer Bay, Rock, Nr Wadebridge, Cornwall
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. Yes - The Independent Appeals Service (IAS)
 

 

PCN-05-08-22-AND-appeal-reply-19-08-22.PDF

Edited August 22, 2022 by Edsr

[lookinforinfo]

Welcome to the Forum. And thank you for the information you provided.

 

You weren't to know but the IPC appear to attract the most venal and corrupt parking companies. And once they issued a motorist with a PCN they are highly unlikely  to cancel the ticket as you have found. Fortunately not to your cost because the Law is on your side.

 

The PCN does not mention the Protection of Freedoms Act because you beat them to it by declaring that you were the driver. One of the things that the Notice to Keeper is to advise you that they do not know who the driver is and under PoFA  only if they get all the points of Law required by PoFA can they pursue you as the keeper if the driver [[who they do not have a name and address for] does not pay.

 

By divulging the driver you have made their work so much easier and perhaps also the reason why they were really reluctant to let you off. In your case them knowing who was driving is not fatal by any means. You paid the correct fee to park and all you did was to put in the wrong vrm. It was established many years ago  in Baroness Walmsley v  TFL that the wrong vrm was not important. 

 

I am not sure if you offered to pay the £20 that has been suggested as a means to cover their expenses in issuing a PCN etc but you can withdraw it as you are now not going to pay a penny. It is pointless trying to appeal to the ISC they are even more venal than their members if that is possible.

 

So all you do now is totally ignore every letter a n communication that they send you-and that includes the rubbish from their unregulated debt   collectors and their dubious legal team. This may take several months or even years. Do not worry about it especially as the Government is bringing out a new Private Parking Code of Conduct  which will drag this scummy bunch of rogues out of the slime where they live and they either conform with the new regs. or they get kicked out altogether.

 

The only thing you have to look out for is if they send you a Letter before Claim  which is a thret to take you to Court. Please let us know if you get that or something like that and we will advise a snotty letter to send them. Once they know the game is up and you are not going to play ball they will probably go elsewhere to try and frighten someone else into paying their fictitious and often unlawful demands,

 

In the meantime have a read of some of the other threads on here to learn just what a bunch of **** they all are and be pleased that you have not and will not have to pay them a single penny.

[Edsr]

Thanks @LookingForInfo I’ve been doing some more reading and it’s amazing that in this day and age companies can act so fraudulently using pseudo legal scare tactics to con consumers on a national scale. 
 

I will double check the form as they do say on it that they don’t know who the driver is - I’m not sure if that makes a difference? 
 

Assuming it definitely doesn’t mention the Protection of Freedoms act in any way, would you then suggest I reply to the complaint handler advising them that I withdraw my offer for pay the £20 admin fee and look forward to receiving their Letter Before Claim so that I can fully dismiss their approaches?

 

 Thanks again for the help!

[FTMDave]

Good news.  Years ago the PPCs tried court in these cases - and got a hammering from judges.

 

So they gave up.  It is years & years & years since we've seen them try court.  You paid for your parking.  They suffered no loss.  You told them which vehicle you had paid for.  Keying in the wrong reg number is legally "de minimis" ("the law does not deal with trivialities").

 

LFI is spot on.  Relax.  Ignore their threats.  But never ignore a Letter Before Claim.

[lookinforinfo]

No do not write to them again. The lack of mention of PoFA means they probably know you were the driver and thus you have lost its protection 

Just ignore all communications from them and their lesser human beings. Wait and see if they have the cojones to take you to Court. I doubt it but stupidity and greed can overrule common sense.

Whether they take you to Court or not, you will come out at the without paying a penny 

[Racer_Bod]

I am sure DX will jump in and say this, but if you move home in the next 5-6 years make sure you update the DVLA and the PPC with your new address to to stop any back door CCJ. The same goes for any company you may have a debt with too. 

[Edsr]

Thanks that is quite likely so I’ll file the PCN with a post it note for change of address to them and DVLA. Cheers everyone 

[Edsr]

@lookinforinfo I can’t believe I’m writing this but my wife went out in the van yesterday a d took the kids to the same beach.

 

I’ve just been cleaning the sand out and found a ticket for that day with her cars reg number on as opposed to the van she was driving!!

 

Do you have any advice at this stage?

 

Just wait for the PCN or should I attempt to head this off at the pass and write to them informing them

of the mistake? 

[dx100uk]

Just keep it safe

[brassnecked]

Scan the ticket both sides as well to keep a digital copy safe, photo's with phone ok for that

 

[lookinforinfo]

Well it didn't work last time when you appealed. Once they issue a PCN they seem to think that there is a debt owed by the motorist and must be paid and cannot be cancelled. It's a blend of greed and ignorance. The good thing is that the keeper probably wasn't driving so if the PCN is non compliant there is no reason to pay nor worry about losing in Court .

 

Just ignore all there cunning demands for money-bribery and threats mainly. Subtlety is not their strong point.

[Nicky Boy]

They're usually pretty subtle when it comes to signage!

[Gick]

Nicky Boy, You say subtle, I would say duplicitous.

[Edsr]

Hi everyone, 

 

Further to my original post regarding two PCNs from Alliance (one with physical ticket for the wrong reg, another was paid via the app for the wrong reg), I have now received the corresponding LOCs...

 

 

Hope this is sufficient info. Would really appreciate any advice on Next Steps. Apologies if I missed something in the Stickys - I couldn't see anything that seemed to match...

 

Thanks in advance wonderful people! 

 

 

 

2023-01-23 letter of claim.pdf

[honeybee13]

Old and new threads merged.

 

You haven't missed anything in the stickies, you need to do a search of CAG for 'snotty letter'. Or you could look in our Parking Successes forum because anyone who's had a LOC is likely to have written a snotty letter in reply.

 

HB

[Edsr]

Thanks HB. I found this one on another thread:

 

Dear Yasmin & Jamie,

 

cheers for your Letter of Claim.  I rolled around on the floor in mirth at the idea you actually thought I'd take such tripe seriously and cough up!

 

I know you pretend your greedy client can add Unicorn Food Tax and claim £160 for these PCNs.  So the five times table.  5 times £160 now equals £1600 does it?  it didn't when I went to school.

 

I pity your client if that utter rubbish attempt at respecting the Pre-Action Protocol found itself in front of a judge.  Your company does seem to have problems with basic mathematics.  I suggest you study for your KS1 SATs which is about your level.

 

This is all aside from the fact that your client was made well aware way back in 2018 that I had every right to use that car park, and I can prove it.

 

Should this case go to court despite having pointed out the futility of doing so, I will be asking the Court for an unreasonable costs order under CPR 27.14(2)(g), and then spending it all on a nice, pleasant holiday while all the time laughing at your client's expense.

 

I look forward to your deafening silence.

 

COPIED TO UK PARKING CONTROL LTD

 

I might write my own though as the above doesn't seem to apply - i.e. their letter isn't from a solicitor, etc.

 

The key points seem to be:

 

1. I got your LOC

2. You have been paid in full for the parking on both occasions

3. I have proof (as do you) that this is the case

4. Please take me to court so a judge can make an example of you, including reimbursing me for the costs I will be claiming

5. Bye

 

Anything wrong / missing?

I guess I can't just ignore this letter too?

I don't mind going to court - I can prove I paid for parking on both occasions

 

Thanks for the help!

 

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Edsr

[FTMDave]

The one in the third-from-last post here  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/449632-bank-parking-anpr-pcn-wrong-reg-appeal-failed-belvedere-street-mansfield/page/2/#comment-5194898  is appropriate to wrong registration cases.              

 

[Edsr]

Legend - thanks Dave!

 

PS: Do I need to do anything else now, or just wait?

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Edsr

[Edsr]

Something like this OK?

 

Ref numbers X and Y

 

Your two Letters Of Claim arrived today, and unsurprisingly follow the same deluded view that I might pay you money that you aren’t legally entitled to. 
 
As I have stated, can prove, and you well know, the correct parking charges were received on both occasions, and you suffered no loss. Typing a registration number incorrectly is clearly "de minimis". Every time a scummy private parking company like yours has taken such cases to court, they have been lambasted by the judge. Getting the registration number wrong is not a reason for pursuing motorists, as established when Baroness Walmsley v TFL [2005] EWHC 896, in the High Court of Justice, won her case.
 
I also refer you to paragraph 6.3 of the government Code of Practice.
 
While I am the registered keeper of the vehicle, I was not driving it on either occasion.
 
Should this case go to court despite having pointed out the futility of doing so, I will be asking the Court for an unreasonable costs order under CPR 27.14(2)(g).
 
I look forward to never hearing from you.

 

Signed...

 

PS: To the poor person processing this letter… why don’t you think about a career change. Surely they’re not paying you enough to sit there trying to rip innocent people off and cheat them out of money they don’t owe your crooked bosses? Why not get a job as a surf instructor, a lifeguard, a builder or a hairdresser – something that does good and helps people? There are loads of career opportunities like this in Newquay… so go on, stand up, tell your boss what you really think of them, walk out, and never ever have to wake up in the morning feeling like you’re selling your soul to the devil again! Good luck

 

[FTMDave]

Your level of snottiness is magnificent!

 

Just to check first.  They have sent you two Letters of Claim, both for £170, for the two separate PCNs, with two of their separate stupid reference numbers - right?

[Edsr]

Yes that's correct - they both arrived on the same day

 

Just another thought but given there is case law on incorrect reg, and the parking companies know this, would there not be grounds to sue these companies for blackmail/extortion?

 

I have looked at the definition:

 

Blackmail can be a very serious offence which has strict rules in the UK. Section 21 of the Theft Act 1968. The act explains UK blackmail law, in legal terms, to be when one makes unwarranted demands with menaces in order to attain personal gain or project loss on another. It does not matter whether the demands are possible or in what fashion the demands are made. These could be express, implied, written, spoken or through conduct.

 

Would this not make a case for a Class Action lawsuit against Alliance Parking? Would be pretty easy to set up a website called "Parking Alliance Claims" or similar and contact members of this forum.

[brassnecked]

No they cruise just the right side of the law and will argue not entering the correct number is a breach of T & C's even though they know its de minimis in law, their business kmethod relies on scaring people,

[Edsr]

Let's hope the Govt pull their finger out and get the law clarified. It's wrong to allow such a massive legal grey area to persist when these with these predators are operating inside it.

[FTMDave]

Sorry to keep firing questions - but there is a reason.

 

Is one LoC addressed to you and the other one to your wife?

 

And we're talking about two different vehicles, right?

[Edsr]

No all good thanks Dave, appreciate you asking the questions!

 

it's the same vehicle on both counts. Both LoCs addressed to me. 

 

One I have the parking ticket for (driver entered our other vehicle reg). The app one defaulted to a car I sold years ago.

 

I emailed the app company within 24hrs of the mistake (have an email conf of this and for receipt too).

Both wrong reg, obviously neither of the reg numbers provided used the car park that day, they got paid both times.

 

I have been registered keeper of both incorrect reg nos used.

Interesting they sent both LoCs on the same day even though the 'offences' almost a month apart.