i have had mm on my back for their last payment. but the thing is i have had my car scrapped,

[JonCris]

Hi Totty.... : )

 

Jon wanted my understanding on this matter also - and there are possibly more of us who may be interested to know..................

 

The law affords that a 'credible' witness is a question for a judge to decide against evidence put before him.

 

The law alongside the fact that the 'credible' witness should not be a beneficiary within the same sentence as expressed within the Bill of Sale Act 1878 as amended can be more than substantiated when argued against the fact that the 'credible' witness may also be a 'beneficiary' - i.e the 'salesman' or 'rep'

 

If you use this Ground as one of the Legal Grounds to have a Bill of Sale 'Struck out' - the nus is on the other party to 'prove' that they did not 'benefit' from the transaction in any way.

 

It would be a Legal Ground because the Law 'protects' against this situation ocurring within the Act itself.

 

Be aware though - that where the other party contends that they are not a beneficiary to a Bill of Sale a Judge may be drawn to the 'intention' of the parties when the Agreement was entered into and may refer to the Law pertaining to the Sale of Goods Act.

 

Also - think of who would be the eventual 'beneficiary' should you default? - in other words - would the salesman get the car should you default? - NO - The auction room does and the eventual purchaser - but the money derived from the Sale, may produce a commission to the Salesman - if and where you can prove this - then fine.

 

If the Judge is looking at the Bill of Sale from the point of view of the intention of the parties to the Agreement - it is arguable that he is in fact looking at the intention of the salesman and the debtor at the time that the agreement is drawn up - this is the crux - you should argue this point should you have to go to court - What was the Salesman's intention when he arrived to get you to sign - was he thinking of you and what was in your best interest (and the law and his duty to explain to you fully the implications of signing such an Agreement - I think not) - or thinking of his commission and his boss's direction to get the Bill of Sale signed 'no matter what you do'?(more likely) (the salesman intention is relevant, because 9 times out of 10 - he will be the one that goes on to swear the affidavit and signs the Bill of Sale)

 

The law allows for 'reasonable doubt' in such matters and the Judge weighs up each case on it's merits and the evidence before him in my experience.

 

So, again - I think a Judge would very interested in such an argument and it would be very interesting to see how lbl's barristers would overcome such an argument in a court of law.

 

There is an argument for mis-selling - the salesman drawing up a Bill of Sale is in exactly the same position in my mind as the Salemen that sold endownments years ago - i.e 'sign here and you can have the money' - what they do not tell you is anything about the Bill of Sale and the fact that it is can have the same effect as if you default on a mortgage - and that at least with your mortgage, lenders are regulated by the FSA so you have better protection should you have to default for any reason.

 

I really love this topic on Bills of Sale : )

 

 

Excellent analysis.

 

I do think it's another means by which the BoS & LBL's credibility can be called into question particularly where there is a question about whether or not the debtor actually signed or even saw the BoS as some debtors have categorically stated they did not & only became aware of it's existence at the time of repossession

Edited March 25, 2009 by JonCris

[brindles]

Hi applecart,

 

a question,please.

 

How would I be able to check and find out information on licenses, as in post 11 above.

 

Is this something we all can do?

 

Thanks.

[applecart]

Hi Brindles

 

I visit: www2.crw.gov.uk/pr/default.aspx whenever I want to check a Company out - it is the 'Public Register' of all Companies who are licensed to hold and deal in the business of credit, such as; credit companies, credit brokers, debt collectors etc.

 

My understanding is that any Company or individual that offers credit, must hold a licence issued by the OFT.(Office of Fair Trading)

 

I also understand that the OFT is the organisation that issues this type of licence and can also 'suspend', 'vary' or 'revoke' a companies or individual's licence.

On the right hand side of the screen you will see 'search CCA' (maybe the other way round)

 

Click on to the link, and a screen will come up that basically asks you to input information on the company name or individual's name that you want to find out licensing information about - you can search on any criteria - could be all you know is the Companies Registration Number - just enter it and click 'search'

 

There is also a section that will give you info on the 'history' of a Companies or individual licence history - this is worth looking at as well.

 

Any member of the public is free to search this site and find out information about any company they wish to.

 

I hope this helps - if I can help further, please ask : )

[brindles]

Hi Brindles

 

I visit: www2.crw.gov.uk/pr/default.aspx whenever I want to check a Company out - it is the 'Public Register' of all Companies who are licensed to hold and deal in the business of credit, such as; credit companies, credit brokers, debt collectors etc.

 

My understanding is that any Company or individual that offers credit, must hold a licence issued by the OFT.(Office of Fair Trading)

 

I also understand that the OFT is the organisation that issues this type of licence and can also 'suspend', 'vary' or 'revoke' a companies or individual's licence.

 

On the right hand side of the screen you will see 'search CCA' (maybe the other way round)

 

Click on to the link, and a screen will come up that basically asks you to input information on the company name or individual's name that you want to find out licensing information about - you can search on any criteria - could be all you know is the Companies Registration Number - just enter it and click 'search'

 

There is also a section that will give you info on the 'history' of a Companies or individual licence history - this is worth looking at as well.

 

Any member of the public is free to search this site and find out information about any company they wish to.

 

I hope this helps - if I can help further, please ask : )

 

 

Hi applecart. yes it helps;)..Thank you, Great advice!

[applecart]

I also address the issue of 'costs' for information held at the High Court of Justice - when you need to write to the High Court of Justice - the Address is:

 

Room E17

Enforcement Officer

Royal Courts of Justice

The Strand

London

WC2A 2LL

 

The cost will be £5.00 if you know the 'registration' number of the Bill of Sale - (ask your lender for this information).

 

or - it will cost £40.00 if you send off for information without the registration number.

 

In all requests to the High Court of Justice you need to quote the BOS registration number, your loan reference number, your name and address and the name and address of the lender.

 

Where you make the request for a copy of the documents held due to the Bill of Sale showing a date that is outside the 7 days allowed by the BOS Act 1878 (as amended), I highly recommend that you ask the High Court to also confirm if an application has been made to 'rectify' - (The courts will understand exactly what you mean when you ask this question - so don't worry trying to explain the whole issue to them - just beg the question - besides the staff are not legally trained and would not be able to offer any interpretation of the 'validity' of the registration for you)

[tottys]

hi applecart its tottys again,

was just reading all the posts on here and ppl are saying about the stamp on the bill of sale. well i was just wondering does every ones have a stamp on them or is it just they ones you get from the courts for when you want to check its validity????

thanks

[postggj]

the original will be stamped by the high court

a copy of the document will have the original stamp

[applecart]

Hi Totty - post ggj is right - if the Bill of Sale was duly sent to be 'registered' then the High Court will 'stamp' the register with it's 'seal' and keep it on file.

 

When you request a copy - they stamp it again with a red stamp to confirm it is a 'true' copy.

 

When you receive it - check to make sure it has been 'correctly executed'.

[xavia66]

Any Problems With Logbook Loans Inform

 

The Financial Ombudsman Service

South Quay Plaza

183 Marsh Wall

London E14 9SR

 

Make sure you send all the conversations and letters to them they are currently investigating my case

[tottys]

have not heard off mm since i told them that all forms were being sent to debt management so am undecided as to it was all done above board and legal

[tottys]

hi all.

am just wondering about the ref no for the bos is it the no at the top of the bill of sale or is that my loan ref number??

and how do i get a copy of the stamped bos??

thanks for all the advice

[applecart]

Hi Totty

 

The ref No of the BOS will be on the copy that your lender will have sent you - it is either located alongside, above. or below the High Court of Justices' 'stamp' itself - normally about 7 digits long with no letters - just numbers.

 

With regards getting a copy see my post #17 on the previous page to this thread. : )

[tottys]

Hi Totty

 

The ref No of the BOS will be on the copy that your lender will have sent you - it is either located alongside, above. or below the High Court of Justices' 'stamp' itself - normally about 7 digits long with no letters - just numbers.

 

With regards getting a copy see my post #17 on the previous page to this thread. : )

hi applecart.

have just read your post mm gave me a bos the day i took out the loan they never sent me one after so there is no stamp on there but there is a number. have not heard off them now for about a week they must be giving me a little break lol .

[applecart]

I should think so too Totty - afterall they've put you through..... : )

 

Having said that - use the time wisely - check out all you can to 'arm' yourself, so they can't pull the 'wool' over your eyes - when they, if they ever, get back to you : )

[applecart]

Totty

 

Why not ring them for the BOS reg No or get the company you have passed the matter onto to do it.

 

If they can't provide it over the phone - alarm bells need to start chiming - as this may mean they have not registered it - then the whole agreement may be null and void and unenforceable!

 

If they can - apply for a copy of all documents held with the High Court of Justice asap - it will cost you £5.00 : )

[tottys]

I should think so too Totty - afterall they've put you through..... : )

 

Having said that - use the time wisely - check out all you can to 'arm' yourself, so they can't pull the 'wool' over your eyes - when they, if they ever, get back to you : )

its so nice and quiet now thanks for all your help applecart you have been a star spot on with all your advice thanks again

[applecart]

Thanks Totty....

 

I've found all the info within the forum useful too.... and I try to contribute as best I can : )

[tottys]

Totty

 

Why not ring them for the BOS reg No or get the company you have passed the matter onto to do it.

 

If they can't provide it over the phone - alarm bells need to start chiming - as this may mean they have not registered it - then the whole agreement may be null and void and unenforceable!

 

If they can - apply for a copy of all documents held with the High Court of Justice asap - it will cost you £5.00 : )

the company i have passed it on to said that they will deal with it they should have got everything by now but think i will still apply to the courts just for peace of mind

[applecart]

K Totty - I would - but don't forget - it's £40 if you do not have the Registration No fo the BOS : )

 

Don't pay over the odds for the sake of a phone call : )

[tottys]

Hi Bullyuk

 

Your doing a great job mate....

 

but, may I say (and don't take this the wrong way) .... try to keep your focus and try not to go over and over old ground, try to keep things in perspective; and moving matters 'forward'; stick to your guns - there is nothing that you are doing that is illegal or not within your rights to do....

 

It is not an offence to default on a disputed credit agreement whilst you seek redress from the lender; who in turn should seek redress in court for agreements in default.....when you legitimately dispute the terms of an agreement on what ever grounds, where the lender has not addressed your dispute - the matter remains in default until such time as they take you to court..... I can see no reason why, any Lender who has valid grounds to seek redress in a court of law would not do so - can you?

 

I understand that the whole experience may be 'mind boggling' but I strongly suggest you maintain a focus and don't lose sight of your rights.....

 

Their is no Judge in my mind that would force you to pay any money to the ex-franchisee - should he seek to take you to court.

 

Remember the OFT guidelines :

 

"Even if you have a licence, it is an offence to carry out any licensable activities that are not covered by that licence.

 

In addition, if any of your customers were to default on a payment you would not be able to enforce a credit agreement that you had made while unlicensed, or where an unlicensed credit broker was involved.....

 

An agreement for the services of a credit broker, debt collector, debt adjuster, debt counsellor, debt administrator, credit reference agency or provider of creidt information services cannot be enforced if the agreement was entered into when the business was unlicensed."

 

When he takes you to court - simply prove that he was a 'franchisee' of Logbook loans - then he lost the franchise - (all of which you can prove - copies of his current licence from the public register - proves when his license was applied for and granted)

 

Then prove that whilst he was unlicensed he has insisted on taking money from you (your bank statements can proof tool this fact)

 

and

 

He has and still insists on seeking to repossess your vehicle, during the times when he was not licensed. This is evidenced by your comments on here and any info you can gather from Agents as and when they visit you.

 

Get that letter off Logbook - so you can discount them from any forthcoming court proceedings - otherwise you will have to implicate them as well - because this Ex-franchisee will implicate them by possibly suggesting he was 'acting' on behalf of 'logbook loans'

 

Get confirmation from HPI that Log Book are shown as having an interesr in your car.

 

Any letters you send- keep copies of, and any you receive - also keep copies and build your paper trail.

 

Keep us all informed of progress - your experience is good for us all to be aware of : )

hi applecart,

was wondering if you could do me a favour i have been on the public reg looking for a certain comp but it keeps coming up that they r not registered and was wondering if you could have a look for me as i'm not to sure i'm doing it right.mm have now phoned me again to tell me that they are now going to go to court to get an order put on me for their money!!

would be v grateful if you could do this for me many thanks totty

[bullyuk]

afternoon totty.....

seen ya request to applecart.....with his help i have become an expert now in looking for companies and details about them on the public register.....i am on there later gathering info so i dont mind having a look for you if you want..... just private message me if you dont want to put details on here mate.

best wishes

bullyuk

[applecart]

Hi Totty : )

 

Mobile Money are registered (see attached)

 

I think you said you had 1 months payment outstanding? - There is nothing to stop mm seeking redress at court, it's a lawful activity - what would be unlawful - is if they have not frozen interest and cost on the account in the meantime; and as you do not have the car (if I remember well) then you have no fears of your car disappearing unlawfully - because if you did have the car and you could evidence in court that they took it or were involved in anyway in it's disappearance; this would work well in your favour - in fact; any attempts made to take your car, that can be evidenced (photo's, paperwork, statement made under oath etc) should work against them, because you would obviously point out that such activities were carried out without the order of any court.......

 

The best thing to do right now is to wait for the paperwork to arrive - so you can be sure of all the details of their claim against you -

Licence Details of MM 2.txt

[tottys]

tottys i cant seem to reply to your private mail...dont know whats wrong....i did find the company.....how do you want me to let you know how to get to it matey

bullyuk

hi bullyuk i dont know why you cant get it to send how else can you send it?

[bullyuk]

send me another private mail and i attach it back again mate

[tottys]

send me another private mail and i attach it back again mate

thank you have just found it but was looking through their history and the debt collecting license has been retained what does that mean do you know??