Mutating Corona Virus

[tobyjugg2]

On 14/04/2020 at 13:46, brassnecked said:

The Welsh are making Chicken (non chlorinated) and Leek soup, as its known to be nourishing, and help keep the bodies defences up. 

 

I dont think we have to worry too much about American chlorine on the chickens now, they only have time for a quick wave toward the chlorine tank as they speed past now ...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/apr/20/no-way-food-safety-not-compromised-us-regulatory-roll-backs-during-covid-19-criticised

 

'No way food safety not compromised': US regulation rollbacks during Covid-19 criticised

 

"Under traditional poultry processing rules, line speeds ran at 140 birds a minute, and required at least four inspectors to be stationed on each line, tasked with checking carcasses for defects, disease or contamination, including fecal matter which can cause salmonella. That has since been reduced to one inspector per line, with individual regulatory waivers enabling line speed increases.

“It potentially reduces some of the quality control efforts, but I am not concerned about worker safety as a result of the increased line speeds."

 

The workers just need to ensure they aren't hit by a speeding dead chicken as it is fired through the factory ....

 

 

Even before the reduction in

"The line speed increases come as Guardian data analysis reveals that at least one in 10 US poultry slaughterhouses failed government salmonella tests last year. In some categories, failure rates are as high as 34%.

Targets to reduce salmonella disease outbreaks have also been missed, with a rise of 9% in the incidence rate over the last three years according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)."

 

 

So if coronavirus don't kill you, the salmonella chicken soup might ..

[tobyjugg2]

 

https://www.radioplymouth.com/news/international-news/coronavirus-uk-only-formally-asked-turkey-for-ppe-shipment-help-on-sunday/

 

Coronavirus: UK only formally asked Turkey for PPE shipment help on Sunday

"Britain only made a formal request to Turkey over a consignment of personal protective equipment on Sunday - the day after a cabinet minister announced the "very significant additional shipment" was already heading to the UK, Turkish sources have told Sky News. "

 

"Gavin Williamson, the education secretary, said at the government's daily briefing on Sunday that he "hoped" the delivery would arrive the next day.

That did not happen, either."

 

 

"sources also revealed that the manufacturer of the goods bound for the UK only submitted a request to the Turkish ministry of health on Monday for (required) permission to export the gear."

Edited April 21, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

and just to stress the point a few choice quotes from HB's link

 

"Last week alone the firm packed five million surgical masks, more than a million FFP2 respirators and more than half a million FFP3 respirators stored inside three warehouses in Birmingham and outside Heathrow Airport on to lorries registered in the EU, a source revealed.

The company, which distributes pharmaceutical products across the UK and Europe, buys PPE from factories in China and takes a new delivery every week. Currently it has millions of pounds' worth of PPE sitting in its warehouses, sources said."

 

"Lorries are being packed with masks, respirators and other PPE kit before heading back to supply hospitals in the EU, it has emerged.

 

On Monday night, UK firms said they had “no choice” but to keep selling the lifesaving gear abroad because their offers of help had been repeatedly ignored by the Government."

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

Not wishing to detract from the already highlighted and rapidly mounting monstrous failures of Johnson and his cabal, but here's a really rank addition if true:

 

https://skwawkbox.org/2020/04/21/biggest-political-scandal-since-cambridge-analytica-about-to-break-as-fake-nhs-accounts-set-up-by-dept-of-health/

 

"The Department of Health (DHSC) has been tied to a string of fake social media accounts by investigative work that discovered a single sign-on tied to the government department.

John O’Connell spotted the fake accounts and his investigations have revealed that 128 accounts were definitely operated by the same individual – with four ‘assigned contributors’ – and that the individual sign-on belongs to a ‘contracted individual assigned’ to DHSC. There are also a number of other ‘probables’ and ‘possibles’.

 

Around a third of the accounts used photos of actual NHS staff – and of those O’Connell contacted, all confirmed that the accounts were not theirs and the photos had been used without permission:"

 

 

 

SKWAWKBOX view:

This is not the first time that a series of fake accounts has been set up to hide Boris Johnson’s and the Tories’ abuse of our health, health service and health staff.

During the last general election campaign, fake accounts were set up in droves to discredit revelations about a sick little boy forced to sleep on a hospital floor because of a hospital’s shortage of beds.

But this is the first time such actions appear to be definitively connected to an official government department and those acting exclusively on its behalf.

To behave like this in a national crisis, diverting DHSC resources to a campaign to con the people of the country while hundreds are dying each day, in an attempt to distract from Tory guilt and failure, is unforgivable. It deserves to become a government-toppling scandal – but do not hold your breath waiting for the so-called ‘mainstream’ media to pay attention.

Edited April 21, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

and the Elephant in the room, for which there is more and more evidence:

 

"Chinese doctors in Wuhan, where the virus first emerged in December, say a growing number of cases in which people recover from the virus, but continue to test positive without showing symptoms, is one of their biggest challenges as the country moves into a new phase of its containment battle.

Those patients all tested negative for the virus at some point after recovering, but then tested positive again, some up to 70 days later, the doctors said. Many have done so over 50-60 days."

 

"In South Korea, about 1,000 people have been testing positive for four weeks or more."

 

"In Italy, the first European country ravaged by the pandemic, health officials noticed that coronavirus patients could test positive for the virus for about a month. "

 

 

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-china-patients-ins/recovered-almost-chinas-early-patients-unable-to-shed-coronavirus-idUKKCN2240HR

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandrasternlicht/2020/04/16/140-plus-coronavirus-survivors-retest-positive-for-disease-in-south-korea-raising-questions-about-immunity/

 

 

 

Issue or NOT? ... That IS the question.

 

https://bgr.com/2020/03/18/coronavirus-update-covid-19-test-result-positive-after-recovery/

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/17/health/south-korea-coronavirus-retesting-positive-intl-hnk/index.html

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

19 minutes ago, hightail said:

Do we know if these were people who were badly affected, moderately affected, symptomless?  

By definition they weren’t the worst affected because they obviously survived.

 

 

 

I believe (one line summary) the severity of the effects/symptoms are at least as much a feature of the individuals 'resistance as to any 'volume of virus they inhaled or contain?

 

Although of course the most severe cases are where the virus overwhelms the bodies defences for one reason or another.

 

 

So in effect, the crucial part is that someone with no symptoms and just a few active virus cells in them which the body isn't effectively controlling/eradicating COULD be the source of a fresh pandemic.

 

 

Whatever we have actually done (or not), it seems to me that effective testing and screening would seem to be absolutely crucial and the basis for the next outbreak

... and anyone who thinks there wont be more of these is simply wrong.

 

 

 

I understand your question i think.

ie were they all mild or no symptoms

but I think the more important part is the reports that they tested positive, then they tested negative .. then tested positive again

Edited April 22, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

30 minutes ago, hightail said:

They did at some point but then presumably tested positive again later.  

 

That points to re-infection doesn’t it?  Or questionable accuracy of tests I suppose. 

 

 

If its re-infection, then given the resilience of the virus which seems to be far beyond that which Johnsons' 'herd immunity' presented

... as seems to be the case, that would be understandable.

 

 

If its the testing thats failing ... despite south korea and China being defined as the leaders in testing (all conspiracy bo*****s aside) ... then it seems to me we have a far bigger problem

.. aka we cant even properly identify the darned thing.

 

 

 

Given either of those, we should be having temperature checks at all mass interaction points with a priority on supermarkets and transport hubs...

with people with a temperature tested and sent home to self-isolate and flagged - privacy invasive as that is ... and I'm a bit of a privacy nut.

 

Would this get the 'no symptoms' infected?

- some (who have a temp but no other symptoms) - yes but no, not al by any meansl,

 

BUT we would still be implementing an isolation protocol far more effective than keeping everyone at home and having no clue who may or may not have been infected.

 

Never thought privacy nut me would say something like that.

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

If we consider

 

"KCDC deputy director Kwon Joon-wook said that so far, there's no indication that patients who retest positive are contagious, even though about 44% of them showed mild symptoms.

 

But he cautioned there is still a lot scientists don't know about the virus, including the issue of naturally acquired immunity.

"Covid-19 is the most challenging pathogen we may have faced in recent decades," Kwon said. "It is a very difficult and challenging enemy."

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/17/health/south-korea-coronavirus-retesting-positive-intl-hnk/index.html

 

 

 

 

But I for one would rather have him saying

'All the current evidence AND EXTENSIVE TESTING leads us to believe that patients who retest positive are not contagious'

... along with a clear supporting explanation of why they are retesting positive

 

rather than the actual statements above.

[tobyjugg2]

 

UK coronavirus death toll more than double hospital figure, new analysis suggests

More than 40,000 people believed to have died – twice the total once described as ‘a good result’

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-coronavirus-death-toll-latest-update-new-analysis-covid-19-a9477761.html

 

 

 

Staggering and monstrous if true

 

I had estimated that the death total from Coronavirus was being under-reported by somewhere between about 10-25% (as near as I could figure) when Bazzas noticed that 50% discrepancy with the testing figures,

but when I looked agian at what generated my very rough estimates, I couldn't see where a 50% error in deaths or testing number could possibly come from other than including people who were already at deaths door being nudged that final step, just as a case of more ordinary flu 'could'.

Relevant,and utterly horrible for those families and loved ones affected,  but arguable.

 

 

Then 7% under reporting hit the headlines and I thought - mm that seems a little conservative.

 

Then 15% under-reporting hit the headlines and I thought - my higher end is looking more possible.

 

Then this.

Which if even just half way true, it would seem that the under reporting can only be by design IMO.

Rank incompetence simply doesn't cut it.

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

Who the heck is going to give Pritti Patel access to their movements.

 

Walk 10 feet past someone on her vast undesirable list (probably 90%+ of the population) and you'll be deported whether your families lived here since the Magna Carta or not.

 

and all that data would undoubtedly end up in US security databases and US biotec firms at the very least.

 

'We have evidence that you were in the company of abdullah the bad, known terrorist sympathiser"

"What evidence"

"We can't divulge that in the interests of National Security, but our judge has been shown indisputable evidence that you were an arms length from him"

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

or even that the data is handed over to the parking charge lobby to ensure they dont have to rely on sending out charges to nurses legitimately using closed pub car parks

(not that they will stop that - but its simply not enough income)

 

'We have evidence you were out of your house for more than an hour, and/or more than once a day

 

Here is your 27 fines for breaking the lock down rules over the last 6 months.

Thats 27 * £60  or  £1,500 if paid with 21 days.

Edited April 23, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

and this in the context of supposedly 100,000 tests a day by next week

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/uk-plans-to-test-300000-for-immunity-to-coronavirus

 

 

and this figure

"18,516 deaths recorded in England and Wales in the seven days to April 10 makes it the deadliest week since the winter of 2000. It was almost 8,000 higher than the five-year average for the time of year."

 

Thats in a week.

Edited April 23, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

22 hours ago, honeybee13 said:

Who saw the Panorama report last night? It looks like upsetting viewing.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-52440641

 

Are we all forgetting who we needed to protect the NHS from before Johnson et al stole the 'Protect our NHS' statement?

 

https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/09/boy-4-forced-sleep-hospital-floor-no-beds-11413718/

 

Boy, 4, forced to sleep on hospital floor because there were no beds

 

 

 

 

 

 

and lets not forget the tory response to this

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/09/tories-accused-lying-distract-photo-boy-hospital-floor

 

"With just days to go until polling day, the Tories suffered one of their worst days of the campaign as Johnson refused on camera to look at a picture of the poorly child and pocketed the phone of the reporter who tried to show it to him."

 

"The incident escalated when Matt Hancock, the health secretary, was dispatched to Leeds General Infirmary in an effort to show that the party was taking the case seriously. But Johnson’s team ended up trying to deflect the story on to Labour by wrongly briefing that a Tory aide was “punched” outside the hospital by a leftwing activist."

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

I'm still waiting for the Tories to turn on the NHS and start trying to blame them for everything.

 

Hand-cock was rather premature, and got burned with his 'Theres no shortage - nhs staff are wasting stuff' rubbush

 

What with all the Tories privatised  bits failing miserably and the NHS shining, they've got to turn that around haven't they ...

 

 

... Let alone the reports of vast quantities of apparently missing stuff that has presumably been charged to NHS budgets ...

Edited April 30, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

The 'government' is choosing scientists to match its requirements, and ensuring the 'scientific' recommendations stay in line.

 

I see little evidence of those requirements being scientific or common sense requirements of addressing the pandemic past, present or future.

 

I expect more and more pressure from the ERG to protect their own business interests at whatever cost to everyone else.

(and yes I do largely understand the national finances)

Edited April 30, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

2 hours ago, London1971 said:

If this pandemic was a 90 minute football match, we'd be 5 minutes in. 

 

To suggest that Corbyn, Swinson, or anybody else would have somehow done better is a stretch.

 

Personally I think the response was misguided

 

 

Largely agree with those

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, London1971 said:

considering it's a once in a century global crisis that sprang from nowhere. 

 

2 .NHS not overwhelmed,not even close

 

 

 

You need to review your reasoning on those at the very least.

[tobyjugg2]

well. with the real number of covid deaths looking more and more like its really past 40,000 and the testing seemingly dropped to a REAL max of around 80,000 (a third the minimum we should be at by now

and nothing more than guesswork at the number of people who have been infected and no sign of temperature scanners which seem to me an essential part of the solution ...

 

... not sure what Johnsons way forward is

 

anybody?

 

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

While we wait for someone to come up with something (other than herd immunity survival of the fittest) showing a plan from Johnson,

 

 

Regarding allowing these shysters (the Tory government and their private business pals) access to your movements etc ...

 

Coronavirus: Plan to use private firm at centre of outsourcing scandal to run contact tracing

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-tests-contact-tracing-serco-g4s-private-firm-a9497371.html

 

"A plan to use a private firm at the centre of an outsourcing scandal to help run the ‘test-and-trace’ system crucial to curbing Covid-19 has drawn criticism.

Labour hit out at ministers after it emerged that Serco – and probably other giant contractors such as G4S – will carry out most of the contact tracing work, by recruiting 15,000 call centre staff."

 

"Last year, the outsourcing giant was fined £19.2m by the Serious Fraud Office as part of a settlement over an electronic tagging scandal, also paying £3.7m in costs.

 

Both Serco and G4S were accused of charging the government for electronically monitoring people who were either dead, in jail, or had left the country."

 

 

"Mr Hancock has been accused of a “missed opportunity” by failing to sign up around 5,000 local council environmental health workers – and thousands more in the private sector, now furloughed in the shutdown. (who) have years of tracing the victims of salmonella, Legionnaires’ disease and even norovirus, but Public Health England made no effort to deploy them earlier in the crisis."

 

Not surprising given

Google executive took part in Sage meeting, tech firm confirms

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/30/google-executive-took-part-in-sage-meeting-coronavirus-tech-firm-confirms

 

"Demis Hassabis, a co–founder of Google’s artificial intelligence division, DeepMind, attended a meeting of the scientific advisory group for emergencies (Sage) on 18 March, when the group was considering whether the UK should go into lockdown."

 

"While Hassabis is considered a world-leading AI researcher, the presence on Sage of an executive from a Silicon Valley company that has been exploring ways to profit from using big data in the health industry is likely to deepen controversy about the group."

 

"DeepMind previously processed millions of healthcare records from an NHS hospital trust as part of a scheme to design a diagnostic app, in an arrangement subsequently found to have contravened data protection law. DeepMind’s health unit was transferred to the parent company’s health division last year.

 

 

 

Wonder whether it was his expertise or his willingness to ignore data protection requirements, which NHS (or environmental health) professionals - were they actually running it - certainly wouldn't ignore...

... or both perhaps + future private profit from the data ...

 

 

Be darned if I'm having that app installed on my phone.

 

 

 

anyway - so the plan so far seems to be:

This is an automated message, do not reply:

You've been within 10 feet or so of a person who has corona-virus, or somebody whos been near somebody who has corona-virus.

We aren't going to test you - just self isolate for 14 days, and don't forget to sort something out for yourself to get food without going out ...

because If you do go out, even without your phone we're watching you ...

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

on another disturbing note

 

A number of NHS staff who volunteered to go help the regional covid wards in the main hospitals are returning to smaller hospitals

 

.. of the three I've spoken with so far, not one has been tested before returning to their smaller hospitals.

 

Hope thats not typical ...

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

32 minutes ago, honeybee13 said:

That's about as clever as sending people back to unprotected care homes when they were infected, TJ.

 

This is a good article on testing and tracing and probably shows why a call centre isn't going to cut it.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/04/100000-tests-results-coronavirus-self-isolation

 

 

 

Too true

 

The thing with testing is there are two aspects

* Do you have it

* Have you had it and have a reasonable expectation of immunity for x period

 

 

Look at the testing numbers, they are struggling to hit 80,000 a day in the real world

 

Even lumping the two tests together - Thats a thousand days - 3 years to test everyone with just a few dupes - far less dupes than is likely to be necessary.

 

Overly simplistic, but decidedly relevant as that is

 

We will still be testing for covid-19 when we are on covid-22

 

 

The simple fact that we seem to be:

* Allowing people into the country from hotspots without a test

* Sending people from hotspots (wards) back to hospitals and care homes without being tested

* Allowing people to shop together without even using temperature checks

* Thinking about lifting chunks of the lockdown without even adequate basic scanning and testing ... (don't think they will - a second wave would (hopefully) bring the government down - despite their lies)

 

 

 

Seems to me to make tracing a 100x harder than it needs to be - an almost impossible task (even without the privacy issues)  and attempting to shut the stable door after 8 of the 10 horses have literally bolted down the road past the gatekeeper as he stood there watching

 

The only 'plan' that fits what we are seeing is 'herd immunity' and those that aren't die

and is only planning for next winter/nect epidemic in hoping that there is some lasting immunity from the 'herd' plan - theres little evidence that would be the case.

 

[tobyjugg2]

49 minutes ago, cjcregg said:

 

Groan.

 

It's called Covid - 19 because it first appeared in 2019, not because it was the 19th Covid version.

 

Duhhh

 

and I said covid 22 because we would still be testing for the current one in 2022

 

.. despite newer versions

Edited May 4, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-test-antibody-uk-covid-19-matt-hancock-roche-a9498601.html

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/roche-coronavirus-antibody-test-fda-approval/

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-roche-investment-germany/armed-with-roche-antibody-test-germany-faces-immunity-passport-dilemma-idUSKBN22G122

 

https://www.roche.com/media/releases/med-cor-2020-04-17.htm

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-17/roche-aims-to-start-selling-covid-19-antibody-test-in-early-may

[tobyjugg2]

 

https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest

 

The point is .. everyone knows that Johnson and his shysters are lying (hasn't he always)

.. despite the Johnson cheerleaders

 

 

I mean - sending nurses who volunteered to go to the frontline despite being aware of the dangers and shortages of protective equipment

... sent back to communities WITHOUT being tested about defines the depths of Johnson and Hancocks shabbiness I think.

 

 

 

But don't worry ... they are looking after their mates no matter how many times those mates have shafted and cheated the British taxpayer

 

(Doctors, campaign groups, academics and MPs)

"said the health secretary, Matt Hancock, had “accelerated” the dismantling of state healthcare and that the duty to keep the public safe was being “outsourced” to the private sector.

In recent weeks, ministers have used special powers to bypass normal tendering and award a string of contracts to private companies and management consultants without open competition."

 

 

So back to who we REALLY need to protect our NHS from eh?

 

 

Even the Express knows ...

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1270303/Matt-Hancock-coronavirus-UK-news-testing-failure-lockdown-latest-update

Edited May 5, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

so, temperature scanners

 

Lets take Tesco as an example.

 

They have apparently given the Coronavirus business rates to shareholders in dividends .. as they didn't need it given a 30% boost in sales

 

an example of it being reported:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/04/08/tesco-sales-surge-nearly-third-covid-19-panic-buying/

 

Now I wonder how many temperature scanners could have been installed in major stores for that?

 

I would argue that the stores that were allowed to stay open had their benefit in spades ...

and only those forced to close should get the business rates holiday.

 

If that rebate had been given to stores allowed to stay open with a requirement to install temperature scanners ....

 

 

I mean, how hard can it be to add temp scanners to the theft and facial recognition cameras/scanners at every door?

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

Even small stores could have been given a hand held ...

 

or even a 'face in front of' portable scanner that could be quickly made in bulk by furloughed engineering companies

... and need a clear beep before allowed to enter