Mutating Corona Virus

[tobyjugg2]

On 09/12/2020 at 13:11, tobyjugg2 said:

and low results/dosing issues which are NOT understood with the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/08/oxford-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine-has-70-efficacy-full-trial-data-shows

 

"The Oxford/AstraZeneca Covid vaccine has efficacy of 90% in a small group who got a half-dose first, but only 62% in the majority, full trial data newly published in the Lancet has confirmed."

 

Not being proposed as far as I am aware

Perhaps should (should have been)  be tested at least given the report some time ago

Edited July 9, 2021 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

"freedom day" - the freedom too:

- “pushing (their) foot down on the accelerator while throwing the seat belts off” on “A strategy that chooses mass infection in children and young people now"

 

 

[honeybee13]

This video from The Citizens has brought together scientists to talk about the government's current strategy with the virus.

 

https://twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1mnGeadwWvQGX

[snowdragon]

Freedom????? for what, more hospital admissions, more infection rates, more deaths!  WTF!!!!!!!

I have  just got my date for second jab and despite what the first one did I am  going to have it, yes you can still get Covid  even if you have had the jab , but  rather have a jab then  be really ill.

 

There should be no talk of lifting anything right now, just because   people want normality ! I doubt anything ever be normal again, in my opinion  the restrictions  should stay

 

Sandy

xx

 

[unclebulgaria67]

On balance I would allow 4 more weeks of restrictions to allow more vaccinations and see if hospital admission numbers improve. I would not gamble on a prediction that numbers will start to look better in a few weeks following this sudden easing of measures.

 

If Boris has got this wrong, then we are in for a really bad Autumn/winter period for the country as the NHS struggles. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

knee Jerk-Johnson and crew keep saying 'if not now - when'

Well the answer is 'when you've put proper management and mitigation processes in place' you've had long enough

 

I think they want the restrictions removed because their self-serving in the early months has meant that no-one will deal with them for vaccines/materials, so let people die is the only option they have now

Particularly as in addition to that, rather than ramp up staffing and processes to meet this 'new normal' they have run the NHS into the ground and shunted all the funds to their pals

 

Interesting that they can manage things like converting their pals pizza box and coffee cup and sweet selling businesses into multi-million pound full medical grade (lol) quality suppliers in 3 days flat, but cant actually use real British biotec firms to make LFT's

and seem to need/want to go through multi-million pound markup middlemen to get stuff from china that you could buy for less off alibaba, or (not) order unusable crap from Turkey for vast sums.

[honeybee13]

On balance I would allow 4 more weeks of restrictions to allow more vaccinations and see if hospital admission numbers improve. I would not gamble on a prediction that numbers will start to look better in a few weeks following this sudden easing of measures.

 

If Boris has got this wrong, then we are in for a really bad Autumn/winter period for the country as the NHS struggles. 

 

It's not just the NHS struggling though, is it, UB? It's lives needlessly lost. I'm with Jacinda Ardern and her people, quoted from the Guardian.

 

'New Zealand has dismissed suggestions it should follow in Britain’s footsteps to “live with” Covid-19, saying the level of death proposed by Boris Johnson would be “unacceptable”.'

[honeybee13]

France has made it complusory for healthcare and social care workers to be vaxxed. Plus volunteers who visit elderly or vulnerable people. From 15th September, they won't be paid or allowed to work.

 

The health passport that shows vax status and test results will be expanded to cover restaurants, cinemas, cultural venues and long-distance train and bus travel.

 

There's been an explosion in demand for appointments to be vaxxed, the Doctolib website reports that 1 million were booked through their website alone.

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

The think with these antics so Boris can claim its not his fault when it goes wrong or claim the credit if anything goes right is:

Who is going to carry on with mask wearing and carefulness?

and who is Not

... Well seems to me that you can be sure that it will be the anti-vaxers that will be carrying on not wearing masks, not being vaccinated and not isolating when they have symptoms

 

I'm already seeing more people walking around supermarkets without masks - not that I've ever seen one challenged by staff throughout.

 

I can see the UK being on the worlds travel ban list quite soon.

 

Perhaps knee Jerk-Johnson knows something we dont and that England is going to be plague central whatever he would be able/willing to do?

Can't think of any other meaningful reason, unless Johnson plans on trying to force people back into city center shops .. AGAIN

 

 

 

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

The other alternative is that Johnson will blame the UK public for not being sensible in his 'easing' despite the simple fact that increases in infections are already well beyond 'more restrictions' levels

Just more attempts by Johnson to deflect and abdicate blame - no matter what destruction is caused by his vacuous  uselessness

[hightail]

On 09/07/2021 at 09:43, honeybee13 said:

Have you seen anything about the length of time they think vaccine immunity lasts? I've seen anything from 6 months to 12.

Firstly I'll make the point that it isn't immunity, it's protection from severe disease.  Maybe we should be managing expectations by not using the term immunity - again probably down to the media.

 

How long it lasts?  As the nerd who is tracking her own levels, I'll keep you informed.

So far, Four weeks after my first jab of AZ I showed as +ve for antibodies at the low(ish) end.  A couple of days before my second that figure had doubled.  Four weeks after my second dose my antibody level had increased to over 100 times the previous test.

 

 

[honeybee13]

Thank you HTnerd.

[hightail]

Should add - the interval between jabs for me was twelve weeks and that seems reasonable considering how my numbers doubled in that time.  It seems counter intuitive to hold back second doses for at least eight weeks but timing could be crucial looking at my results.

Edited July 13, 2021 by hightail

[honeybee13]

Which type of test are you using?

[tobyjugg2]

TY hightail

That seems to be bang on what the reports indicate for the O/AZ

and those reports also seem to be indicating that the antibodies have significantly tapered off @6 months post 2nd jab - enough that a booster of the same vaccine will bring the antibodies back to the level they were a few weeks after the second jab

 

All reports seem to be saying that all vaccines (except single dose Jansen on which there is little info) ONLY give low around 30%ish of the expected 2 jab levels of antibodies after one jab

 

We do need to be aware of the issues surrounding multiple jabs and resistance to the vaccine 'carrier (adenovirus) when considering boosters, and how important large levels of antibodies may or may not be.

 

These are easyish reads, and info on the flu jabs and mechanisms is a good starting point when theres little better available yet:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7954518/

https://creakyjoints.org/living-with-arthritis/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/antibody-testing-covid-19-vaccine-immunocompromised/

https://www.genengnews.com/news/why-flu-vaccine-immunity-is-short-lived/

https://science.thewire.in/the-sciences/covaxin-bharat-biotech-neutralising-anitbody-titre-immune-correlate-of-protection/

 

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-06-29/covid-two-oxford-vaccines-produce-low-level-of-antibodies-against-delta-variant-study-shows

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/article/3137955/coronavirus-those-biontech-jabs-have-stronger

 

 

Edited July 13, 2021 by tobyjugg2

[hightail]

7 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

We do need to be aware of the issues surrounding multiple jabs and resistance to the vaccine 'carrier (adenovirus) when considering boosters, and how important large levels of antibodies may or may not be.

I have all sorts of questions round that.  Do we need to have measurable levels of antibodies to mount a response if we've primed the system with two doses?  Tailoring booster vaccines to deal with dangerous variants is a very different thing from just shoving more of the same into everyone.  I believe Pfizer claims it is producing a booster against current variants but couldn't that be redundant as soon as it's available? 

[hightail]

22 minutes ago, honeybee13 said:

Which type of test are you using?

It's the Roche test HB.  A fairly blunt instrument in that it gives nothing more than current antibody levels.  It doesn't give any indication of priming T cells which could be far more important for long term protection.

Edited July 13, 2021 by hightail

[honeybee13]

Just had to google that. It's an antigen test? I'm not sure if it's a LFT, excuse my ignorance?

[tobyjugg2]

17 minutes ago, hightail said:

I have all sorts of questions round that.  Do we need to have measurable levels of antibodies to mount a response if we've primed the system with two doses?  Tailoring booster vaccines to deal with dangerous variants is a very different thing from just shoving more of the same into everyone.  I believe Pfizer claims it is producing a booster against current variants but couldn't that be redundant as soon as it's available? 

 

Some answers (as far as we have them) in the links given in my last post (including on the Roche test)

eg

"If you were to get infected with SARS-CoV-2, your body would make antibodies in response to multiple viral proteins, including nucleocapsid and spike protein.

On the other hand, the vaccines currently authorized for use in the United States only trigger antibodies against spike protein, so an antibody test after you get the vaccine should only detect antibodies to that spike protein, not to the nucleocapsid protein."

 

ie if you have had a mild interaction with the coronavirus before your vaccination, then your bodies ability and protections would most likely (but not certainly) be higher

[hightail]

8 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

if you have had a mild interaction with the coronavirus before your vaccination, then your bodies ability and protections would most likely (but not certainly) be higher

Absolutely which is why I can be pretty sure I never had the virus - my first test post first jab would not have returned such a low result if I had.

 

20 minutes ago, honeybee13 said:

Just had to google that. It's an antigen test? I'm not sure if it's a LFT, excuse my ignorance?

There is no LFT for antibodies HB, only to give a preliminary result for current infection.  To check antibody levels I have to stick myself and fill a vial with blood to send off to a lab.

Edited July 13, 2021 by hightail

[honeybee13]

That sounds very enterprising of you. It will be interesting to hear how your monitoring goes.

[hightail]

Nothing more than curiousity (worry) prompted by my complete lack of any reaction to the vaccine.  At the time the media, including any doctor who could get on tv, were really pushing the idea that side effects meant protection.

[tobyjugg2]

23 minutes ago, hightail said:

Nothing more than curiousity (worry) prompted by my complete lack of any reaction to the vaccine.  At the time the media, including any doctor who could get on tv, were really pushing the idea that side effects meant protection.

 

'generally it does .. As long as the effects are not just inflammatory system over-reaction ... :-(..

the bodies reactions and mechanisms are a marvel to puzzle over

 

Consider, like my first jab, it made many quite ill for 36-48  hours-ish and i felt under the weather for days longer

Second jab - just sore arm

 

A balance between generating resistance/attacking invaders and the cytokine storm of massive inflammatory over-reactions.

- rather like arthritis or severe allergies

Edited July 13, 2021 by tobyjugg2

[hightail]

1 minute ago, tobyjugg2 said:

generally it does

I know but I got the AZ which did not fill me with confidence

[honeybee13]

So since your second vax - how long ago, please remind me/us? - have you noticed any difference in your antibody levels?