CWD - PAP Letter re old UAE debt now claim form

[Andyorch]

The purpose of this memorandum is to set out the parties’ understanding of the procedures for the enforcement of each party’s money judgments in the other party’s courts. This memorandum is concerned only with judgments requiring a person to pay a sum of money to another person.

They have not got a judgment.....

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/JCO/Documents/Guidance/uk-uae-protocol-with-logos.pdf

[Hornsey62]

Right ok thanks Andy.

I will post up their witness statement when I get back

Thanks for your help

[Andyorch]

Excellent ..I will set a side 2 mins to read it 

[Hornsey62]

[Hornsey62]

Hi Andy

I can see there's problems uploading so I'll wait until it's sorted to upload Cwd witness statement.

 

today I rang the court again because I was worried that I hadn't been instructed to submit my own witness statement and they've already given me wrong information in the past and low and behold I do have to submit one.

 

Now I am panicking because if it has to be in 14 days before hearing I only have a few days.

They said well we're not legal people who answer the phone!!

So don't give out wrong information then.

 

The person I spoke to said not to worry just submit when it's done but I'm not falling for that one.

 

I don't have a clue what I need to write in the statement.

I have looked at others on cag but I don't know if they have any bearing on my case.

 

Do I still stick to jurisdiction?

Please can i have some advice.

[Andyorch]

You have to ...you have contested it.Go to post #66 all the evidence required is within your application.

Reference to CPR 11 https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part11 no where does it instruct you to submit a witness statement.

3.An order to the dispute the court’s jurisdiction to try the claim and declaring that it has no such jurisdiction or should not exercise any jurisdiction which it may have. And in addition make orders: setting aside the claim form; setting aside service of the claim form; and staying the proceedings. Pursuant to CPR 11 .1 a/b

 

If the court staff are correct what exactly could you put in your statement to inform a District Judge why you contest jurisdiction and what he wont already know about UK Law and UAE Law ?  What evidence would you intend to use ?

[Hornsey62]

I've been told 2 different things by 2 different court staff.

I don't really trust what they are telling me any more. 

 

Should I be looking for any written evidence that there is no agreement between  UAE and UK ? 

 

I've looked for anything I can find on the internet but nothing that actually states that.  

 

What I can find is that you need a judgement in the country of origin but in their WS they are saying a judgement is just a piece of paper and just add needless costs and that they have jurisdiction because it's in their t & c and I signed them.

 

I don't want to go on to court facing a solicitor if I don't have a clue what I'm talking about.

Feeling a bit out of my depth now. 

I can't find one court case that I can compare to.

 

I haven't been instructed in writing by the court to submit a WS so my feeling is maybe they don't require one..

But will I be able to defend myself on the day ?

 

I'm worried that because I've signed the T&Cs that the judge may agree they have jurisdiction?

 

 

[Andyorch]

" in their WS they are saying a judgement is just a piece of paper and just add needless costs and that they have jurisdiction because it's in their t & c and I signed them. "

Well they will say that they will say Father Christmas is real to convince a court the claim is okay to be decided under UK law...its for the court to decide.

Look this hearing is to determine the above...its not a trial.....you dont need evidence...you have made an application and requested an order be made to contest jurisdiction.....the onus is  on the claimant to convince otherwise...hence their need for a statement. ...a copy of the agreement with its T&Cs and it must state non-exclusive....which means  the bank can still sue in other countries.

Also of use is the following....

https://drukker.co.uk/portfolio/forum-non-conveniens/

The common law doctrine of forum non conveniens (inconvenient forum) allows a court to stay or strike out civil proceedings in England where there is a more appropriate foreign jurisdiction in which the proceedings should be heard and it would not be unjust that the claimant is deprived of their right to trial in England.

Where it is necessary to serve proceedings out of the jurisdiction, permission to do so will only be granted if the court is satisfied that England and Wales is the most appropriate forum in which the claim should be issued. The court will require the claimant to demonstrate that England is the most appropriate forum for the trial of the claim....and why UAE is not ?

If and its a big If you application fails the claim simply proceeds as a normal claim and you will have opportunity to submit a defence with reasons...the claimant may be awarded costs should your application fail.

[dx100uk]

oh my are they really saying that..what twits...

[Andyorch]

Also of interest.....Service out of the jurisdiction where permission of the court is required

https://blogs.lexisnexis.co.uk/content/dispute-resolution/service-out-of-the-jurisdiction-where-permission-of-the-court-is-required-bill-kenwright-ltd-v-flash-entertainment

[Hornsey62]

I'm really worried now as in t+cs states 

 

Their terms and conditions are governed by and shall be construed in accordance with the laws of the UAE and the Cardholder hereby submits irrevocably to the laws of the non-exclusive jurisdiction of the civil courts of Dubai .

 

Such submissions shall however not prejudice the rights of the bank to bring proceedings against the cardholder in any 

 

Does this mean they don't need a judgement to bring the case here,? 

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

so you've not read andy's posts then...

[Hornsey62]

dx yes our posts must have crossed as have just seen it 

[Hornsey62]

Thanks Andy ..

 

Am I right in thinking that if they have the non jurisdiction clause do they not need a judgement in the UAE first ? 

[Andyorch]

Take a read of the following...two further points on none exclusive terms...

https://www.tamimi.com/law-update-articles/choice-of-law-and-jurisdiction-provisions-in-the-uae/

https://www.justanswer.co.uk/law/8ls85-received-county-court-summons-uk-lawyer-representing.html

 

 

 

[Hornsey62]

Thanks for all your searching for these links..it's very much appreciated ..I'm going cross eyed with all the reading and trying to understand 

 

I need to get some sleep now so I can have a clear head tomorrow and see if can make sense of it all .

Just need some understanding so I have some measure of confidence before attending court 

[Hornsey62]

Hi Andy

I rang the court again today as i wasn't satisfied with what ive been told.

 

The person I spoke to today was much more helpful.

She said there are no directions for a WS from either party but CWD chose to send one in!   

Probably to get one ahead with the judge.

 

They have tried to show me in a bad light before I've even attended court which I'm sure they think would sway the judge in their favour.

 

This doesn't surprise me as I've found out many unsavoury things about them including trying to ruin Removal Company owners through their clients National Guild of Removers and storers and leading The Daily Mirror to investigate them.

Judges in London are getting wise to them now.

 

Sorry for going off subject..the person I spoke to today said if there is anything I want to explain to the judge I should send in but CWD have to see it before hearing or I just bring anything up on the day.

 

My question is what input am I allowed to have and if any what can I bring up?

 

Sorry for all the questions but I don't want attend and not have a clue what to say  and if I say anything what do I back it up with?

Thanks for all your help so far

[Andyorch]

There is no Direction within the CPR Civil Procedure Rules.....Simply submit an N244 Application Notice and request an Order.I have already advised you of the process of contesting jurisdiction.

"My question is what input am I allowed to have and if any what can I bring up?"

" Sorry for all the questions but I don't want attend and not have a clue what to say  and if I say anything what do I back it up with? "

Very little unless you are more qualified than the District Judge on Jurisdiction issues....the court determines...you sit and twiddle your fingers.

Any chance of uploading their witness statement..,,I think the uploading problems have been resolved.

 

[Hornsey62]

Okay thanks Andy..things a bit clearer now.

I won't be able to upload until Monday now as I'm away for the weekend.

Will get it done as soon as i get back and again thanks for your advice.

[Hornsey62]

I'm trying to look at how to upload my witness statement..

 

When I press on upload it says error page 

[Andyorch]

Use the following for now until the error is corrected...

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/keywords/view/24-upload/

[Hornsey62]

Hi 

Tried this and says the following page is not available for your account?

[Andyorch]

Simply attach the PDF redacted as per the instructions in the reply box (bottom left corner)

[Hornsey62]

I haven't done the pdf  yet ..I was looking at upload to see what I have to do. 

 

My daughter is helping me with it shortly 

[dx100uk]

just drop and drag it into the bottom of the reply box here