Fined for dropping a cigarette end on private property

[JoeyJoeC]

So the regulations aren't that they cannot issue a FPN on private land, only that they require permission of the land owner. Perhaps they have this? From the sounds of it Sainsburys aren't the land owner, they are merely tenants so they may not necessarily know that the land owner/landlord has given permission for people littering to be fined on their land.

 

£60 may seem harsh but littering, especially people just throwing cigarette butts on the ground, is a major problem and the only way to drill the message into people to stop doing it is with harsh penalties.

 

I admit I do this from time to time, but only if I can't find a litter bin around. I'm sure the 77% tax is enough of a punishment for smoking in the first place!

[Conniff]

Tell him if he should be absent minded again, to pick it up and put it in his pocket. A lady was taken all the way to court for littering by throwing food for the birds, the judge asked if the birds eat the food, the reply was yes they eat it all.

The judge dismissed the lady and told the council to use some common sense and that they should never have brought her there in the first place.

[BlankUser]

long winded (probably template cut and paste) yet expected response to the appeal...

 

I have reviewed the Fixed Penalty Notice that was issued to you for the offence committed on 11th February 2016 at Sainsbury’s Car Park, Upton, Wirral. I have also reviewed the body camera footage of the interaction between yourself and our officer. In addition to that I have spoken with the issuing officer in regards to their observations before issuing you with the Fixed Penalty Notice and I am satisfied the Fixed Penalty Notice was issued correctly.

 

The fact that there is no bin within the immediate vicinity is not considered by Wirral Council to be a valid defence in relation to a littering offence. The legislation relating to a littering offence states that a person is guilty of an offence if that person throws down, drops or otherwise deposits any litter in any place to which this section applies and leaves anything whatsoever in such circumstances as to cause, or contribute to, or tend to lead to, the defacement by litter of any place to which this section applies.

 

Whilst it may be a defence under this legislation that litter was left by or with the prior consent of the owner of the land, it is not a requirement for the principal litter authority to obtain explicit authorisation from the land owner before issuing a fixed penalty to those that they believe have committed an offence. As an authorised officer of the local principle litter authority (Wirral Council) Officer Stott does have the legal authority to enforce this legislation on relevant land within Wirral.

 

A Fixed Penalty Notice is issued to offenders to give them the opportunity to discharge liability for prosecution. You can discharge your liability to prosecution for the offence of littering under section 87 of the Environmental Enforcement Act 1990 by payment of the Fixed Penalty Notice or request a court date to have your case heard in the magistrate’s court to appeal the littering offence.

 

We have a Zero Tolerance approach towards those people who commit littering offences. Our officers patrol public places in areas where littering is prevalent and are instructed to issue a Fixed Penalty Notice once they have witnessed a littering act. They have no discretion in this matter and are working to our directions. This ensures they are consistent towards people when issuing a penalty notice.

 

I can now offer you the 10 days from the date of this email to pay the reduced rate of £60 or additional time to pay the standard rate of £80 in the form of an extension, please let me know if you would like to take up this offer in order to discharge your liability for this offence. If you believe yourself not guilty of this offence, you will be given an opportunity to make that plea before a court of law.

 

If you feel aggrieved in any way with how Wirral Council have dealt with this matter then please refer to our complaints procedure. Please note that this will not delay the process and should the fixed penalty remain unpaid, your case will proceed to the courts.

 

Kindest regards,

[king12345]

I still think they're talking rubbish when they say

"Whilst it may be a defence under this legislation that litter was left by or with the prior consent of the owner of the land,

it is not a requirement for the principal litter authority to obtain explicit authorisation from the land owner

before issuing a fixed penalty to those that they believe have committed an offence"

 

This means that within the borough's boundaries they can issue a fpn on private land, even your back garden!

Utter rubbish.

I would have my day in court.

[BlankUser]

I quite agree with you it is utter *rubbish and I dislike the appeal process, I feel I should be able to respond rather then the only option is to go to court where a £60 could end up a much higher amount....

[steampowered]

The legislation says you can be fined in places accessible to the public. So you couldn't be fined for littering in your back garden, as this is not a public place, but I think you can be fined for littering in a car park. The legislation does not say that the land needs to be owned by the council.

 

You could have a go at fighting it - there may be something in the guidance I linked to earlier which might help you, along the lines of saying that people should not be fined for very minor littering. Personally I think you would probably lose in court so I think it would be best to pay the fine to settle this.

[BlankUser]

I agree, he wouldn't win in court and there really isn't any point in trying....at least it was challenged and I haven't spotted any more of 'them' in sainsburys car park

[king12345]

The legislation says you can be fined in places accessible to the public. So you couldn't be fined for littering in your back garden, as this is not a public place, but I think you can be fined for littering in a car park. The legislation does not say that the land needs to be owned by the council.

 

I can't find anything in the legislation about being fined on private land open to the public without landlord permission.

Can you post a link please?

[king12345]

The main issue here is whether the la has permission from the landlord to issue fines in their land and from the appeal response I understand they haven't.

I know it's easier to pay the £60, but a little dig on the land registry for £3 will tell who the landlord is and formal enquire could explain if they have permission or not.

I bet they don't.

[steampowered]

I can't find anything in the legislation about being fined on private land open to the public without landlord permission.

Can you post a link please?

The link is http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/87, which is the statutory offence of littering. The legislation is as follows:

 

(1)A person is guilty of an offence if he throws down, drops or otherwise deposits any litter in any place to which this section applies and leaves it.

(2)This section applies to any place in the area of a principal litter authority which is open to the air, subject to subsection (3) below.

(3)This section does not apply to a place which is “open to the air” for the purposes of this Part by virtue of section 86(13) above if the public does not have access to it, with or without payment.

 

The test in the legislation appears to be whether or not the land is 'open to the air' and whether the public has access. This makes it similar to smoking legislation (which bans smoking in privately owned places made open to the public, such as pubs and bars).

[king12345]

The link is http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/87, which is the statutory offence of littering. The legislation is as follows:

 

(1)A person is guilty of an offence if he throws down, drops or otherwise deposits any litter in any place to which this section applies and leaves it.

(2)This section applies to any place in the area of a principal litter authority which is open to the air, subject to subsection (3) below.

(3)This section does not apply to a place which is “open to the air” for the purposes of this Part by virtue of section 86(13) above if the public does not have access to it, with or without payment.

 

The test in the legislation appears to be whether or not the land is 'open to the air' and whether the public has access. This makes it similar to smoking legislation (which bans smoking in privately owned places made open to the public, such as pubs and bars).

 

Seems incomplete considering that permission is required:

 

Issuing FPNs on private land

You must have permission from the landowner or occupier before you enter private land to issue FPNs.

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/enforcement-officers-issuing-fixed-penalty-notices#issuing-fpns-on-private-land

[steampowered]

Seems incomplete considering that permission is required:

 

Issuing FPNs on private land

You must have permission from the landowner or occupier before you enter private land to issue FPNs.

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/enforcement-officers-issuing-fixed-penalty-notices#issuing-fpns-on-private-land

Very interesting, thanks for linking that. There is a contradiction with the guidance here (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/litter-and-refuse-council-responsibilities-to-keep-land-clear) which says 'It’s an offence to drop litter on land that’s accessible to the public, even if it’s private' and the Code of Practice on Litter and Refuse (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/221087/pb11577b-cop-litter.pdf) which says 'It is an offence to throw own, drop or otherwise deposit, and then to leave, litter under section 87 of the 1990 Act. The offence, as extended by section 18 of the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005, applies to all places that are open to the air, including private land'.

 

The different bits of guidance are unclear and a bit contradictory as to what happens on private land, so the situation is very confusing.

 

The actual legislation is the legally binding bit, and that doesn't talk about private land, so I am inclined to follow the legislation. No doubt the private land owner could tell the enforcement officers to leave if he doesn't want them there, but I'm not sure that would mean fines issues before then are invalid.

[ericsbrother]

accessible to the public means places where the public are invited such as pubs, shops, car parks etc. Someone's front garden may be acessible but the public are not invited there so have the council correctly aplied the law here? I believe so but they wouldnt have done so in the case of another thread where the person stubbed out a fag in someone's garden.

Smoking in enclosed spaces that are accessible to the public is banned and thus the londowner/proprietor is responsible for any fine

[BlankUser]

personally I don't think its worth letting it go to court but if I ever spot one of these people in any supermarket carpark again I will complain to the store manager that their customers are being harassed and I'd like to think that the manager will ask them to move on, the seem to haunt places that are an easy target, it's just easy money at the end of the day

[think about it]

I'll be honest - I don't see the 'harrassment' angle of this at all - it's like saying that I was being harrassed by the police officer that happened to be in the same carpark as me this morning and because I did something illegal he/she stopped me.

 

Likewise I would imagine places that are 'easy targets' are those with the highest level of offending - makes perfect sense really to have an enforcement officer there; just like you'd position a speed camera where people are likely to drive at excessive speed...

[Old Cogger]

what a pathetic country this place has come to === people sort out the government and fraudulent taxes and over rated income they make at the poor expense and bring back treason and reduce number of MPs in that dog kennel

[BlankUser]

I'll be honest - I don't see the 'harrassment' angle of this at all - it's like saying that I was being harrassed by the police officer that happened to be in the same carpark as me this morning and because I did something illegal he/she stopped me.

 

Likewise I would imagine places that are 'easy targets' are those with the highest level of offending - makes perfect sense really to have an enforcement officer there; just like you'd position a speed camera where people are likely to drive at excessive speed...

 

I disagree, & still feel its harassment.. they blend in and focus on people smoking or stand by the doorway waiting for someones receipt to get swept away with the wind...there's often signs to warm motorists that speed cameras are ahead, when the police are doing speed checks they wear high vis jackets...

 

this is just business...or plain skullduggery

[think about it]

I disagree, & still feel its harassment.. they blend in and focus on people smoking or stand by the doorway waiting for someones receipt to get swept away with the wind...there's often signs to warm motorists that speed cameras are ahead, when the police are doing speed checks they wear high vis jackets...

 

this is just business...or plain skullduggery

 

 

So they ought to wear flashing lights on their heads and ask people nicely not to break the law? Perhaps sandwich boards with a pre-printed apology for 'victimising' criminals?

 

 

Sorry, couldn't be further from harrassment. As someone said earlier, it's not like there's a defence of ignorance 'Oh, sorry - I didn't know it was against the law...' so if caught then it's a fair cop. Perhaps in future we'll all be more aware of our surroundings and not allow our receipts to flutter off into the distance every time we go shopping...

[BlankUser]

and labelling someone for dropping a cigarette as 'a criminal'.... wow (biodegradable roll up too )...madness

[think about it]

and labelling someone for dropping a cigarette as 'a criminal'.... wow (biodegradable roll up too )...madness

 

Not my definition: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/87 nor do I see any provision for the biodegradability of the item in the legislation. Interestingly following that logic I could dump my lawn clippings outside a supermarket and not expect to be convicted and fined.

 

Madness indeed.

[BlankUser]

now you're just being silly :/