EU, in or out..

[obiter dictum]

Why people are so angry about TTIP?

 

Because Americans are, with all due respect, disgusting slobs always chasing a fast buck and thus very different from us fragrant Europeans who are, like Mary Poppins, practically perfect in every way. One worry is that the main goal of TTIP is to remove EU regulations that stop its citizens being poisoned, killed or subject to rampant pollution so that more profits can be made by corporations on both sides of the Atlantic.

[Conniff]

Although I agree with you about TTIP, it is all speculation and nothing has come out that says we will change how we are at present

[obiter dictum]

That is why the EU has the strongest consumer laws on the planet because they resit such incursions

 

Debate issue and trade yes, impose by dictat for a fast buck at the expense of its citizens, no

[Conniff]

I'm not understanding you. Are you suggesting the UK will drop all standards if we leave the EU ??

[obiter dictum]

No because even if we leave the EU we will still have to apply all the EU regulations anyway from what is listed on a packet of salt to the clothes we wear just to continue trading with the EU

 

Ask Norway

 

Only if TTIP is introduced will legislation change

[Conniff]

You should also keep in mind that a lot of the EU regulations came from the UK and introduced into EU legislation with a demand they be adopted by the whole EU.

[obiter dictum]

That i will agree on

[fletch70]

Although Conniff may not like it the article you quoted (and maybe it would aid your cause if you stated where it came from) was published in The Guardian, which, whatever its political bias is still classed as a quality daily

 

BTW thanks for the link Cit B

 

This is what we get with globalisation and neo imperialism which probably started 70 years ago (ish) with the Marshall Plan. To be honest I think resisting American Imperialism is as good a reason as any for staying in the EU

[Conniff]

I can't see where this downer on the UK manifested from. It seems the anti's have half empty glasses which isn't the way to be. Have some optimism and pride in your country, make your glass half full. We aren't the little nobody island that's being suggested in this thread.

[fletch70]

Well from my point of view it's being realistic. I am proud to be British but the world has changed. Less than 100 years ago we ruled a quarter of the world now we don't and we need to face that. The global powers are now China USA and still to some extent Russia. In Europe Germany are the powerful nation. We are no more a superpower now than the Dutch French or Portuguese.

[unclebulgaria67]

I can't see where this downer on the UK manifested from. It seems the anti's have half empty glasses which isn't the way to be. Have some optimism and pride in your country, make your glass half full. We aren't the little nobody island that's being suggested in this thread.

 

But the world has changed and will do so more over the next 30 years. This is why the Tories have signed up to work with the Chinese and London will trade the Chinese currency. Whilst the UK can become a Switzerland of the world, with London trying to become the biggest financial centre, competing with New York and Shanghai, it would not be healthy for Banking to become too dominant again. The UK economy needs to have a diverse economy with manufacturing being a significant part. If the UK leaves the EU, we might well face more difficulty trading with EU and US.

 

I take comfort from the UK being part of something bigger which is the EU and not just being an island nation. But the EU needs to be reformed, so that it works for all countries. Germany is too dominant and the Euro does not work well for all countries, due to a lack of flexibility in the financial rules that apply. But as time passes, i think the EU will address the issues and there will be more powers handed back to countries parliaments, so Brussels decides much less. The dreams of some for federal EU have gone, as the migrant crisis has shown, that countries will make their own decisions.

[fletch70]

UB

I think that you are right that the EU needs to address the problems especially with the rise of the right in some countries. The recent elections in Poland are a worry as is the perennial presence of the NF in France.

 

Germany has far too much power and authority within the EU and when joined up with France they are fairly unstoppable at the moment. Leaving the EU can not be right for this country

 

Of course if I had my way we would be a truly socialist country in a truly socialist europe and we would finally defeat the U.S. .

 

Too many people perceive communism through the eyes of the media and the cold war . Stalin and Co were not true communists , they were totalitarian despots

[Conniff]

 

If you want to sing along, here's the words.

 

Over time some things have changed

You’re not the way you used to be

I can’t go on giving

Until life’s not worth living

I can’t see any other way

 

So let’s say ‘Ooh La La’

It’s time to say ‘Au Revoir’

Auf Wiedersehen, Meine Frau

Arrivederci. I don’t mean ‘Ciao’

Goodbye. Goodbye. It’s time to leave you now.

 

Don’t feel sad

It won’t be so bad

Time will heal the pain you feel today

Try to smile and part as friends

Because life doesn’t end

I can’t see any other way

 

So let’s say ‘Ooh La La’

It’s time to say ‘Au Revoir’

Auf Wiedersehen, Meine Frau

Arrivederci. I don’t mean ‘Ciao’

Goodbye. Goodbye. It’s time to leave you now.

 

So let’s say ‘Ooh La La’

It’s time to say ‘Au Revoir’

Auf Wiedersehen, Meine Frau

Arrivederci. I don’t mean ‘Ciao’

Goodbye. Goodbye. It’s time to leave you now.

Goodbye. Goodbye. It’s time to leave you now.

[obiter dictum]

[Old Cogger]

Exit at your peril!!!!!

[obiter dictum]

The yanks do not want a trade deal with us

The Chinese do not want a trade deal with us

India and Pakistan do not want a trade deal with us

 

I suppose we can all go back being self sufficient as a land army and grow spuds if we end up leaving

[Old Cogger]

Spuds === must darn me socks

[tobyjugg2]

REMOVED - SS (Alleged)

(Removed - SS)

 

I'm undecided.

Tories politicians will naturally want out whatever they say,

Tory businesses will want in.

Bankers will want in enough to trade money markets - but out enough to be immune to EU banking legislation.

[SabreSheep]

Ladies, Gentlemen , please remain on topic and lets not start insulting people or parties on either side. Posts removed and where needed edited!

 

Thank you

[fletch70]

Ladies, Gentlemen , please remain on topic and lets not start insulting people or parties on either side. Posts removed and where needed edited!

 

Thank you

 

Sabre

With respect while I agree with your request not to insult people , politics does give rise to great passion in some people , which has to be good for a democracy . Without passion and discussion we should all just give up now.

 

Is it wrong for me to say that the Tory Party, and many of its politicians are out of touch biggoted capitalists who are a danger to liberty . Mind you I think that goes for some in the labour party particularly those who were supporters of Blair. Sadly at the last election the only socialist party in England were almost wiped out however there is a socialist party in Scotland.

 

On the subject of the EU

What good reasons can anyone give for leaving?

People blame the EU for immigration , well who lived through the 70's with mass immigration for Uganda , that had nothing to do with the EU . Immigration will always be a problem until money and systems are put into place to ensure efficient processing of applications . The real problem appears to be the over stayers who come on a tourist visa and disappear.

 

People also blame the EU for the HRA, well we would be bound by the ECHR in or out , in many ways the HRA has forced the government to legislate for equality, now that can only be a good thing can't it .

 

Business, well we can conduct business with the rest of the world , in or out, but a huge market is the EU so why should we make that more difficult.

 

As for the single currency, well those on the right should want it because , if you notice, when a country gets into trouble , even the left leaning countries demand right economic measure of reductions in public spending so Keynesian economics is dead although it has been demonstrated to work (at times)

[SabreSheep]

Im not obstructing debate here nor passion and indeed it is to be welcomed, but with respect discussion and debate should be carried out with a degree of decency

 

But comments like "All Labor voters are XXXX and all Torys screw with pig heads is unnecessary"

 

These sort of comments not only drive discussion away form the topic at hand but also serve to shut down reasoned discussion.

 

Bit different from accusations of being out of touch which can be demonstrated with facts and evidence and add to the debate.

 

That aside the censured comments were also off topic

Edited November 1, 2015 by SabreSheep
Added in italitics and bold

[unclebulgaria67]

Why does the EU provoke so much passionate debate ?

 

Cameron made a decision to hold a referendum because half of the Tory MP's are very EUsceptic and they were losing so many votes to UKIP. By accident his decision proved successful at the election, as the Tories did not lose as many votes to UKIP as expected and Labour lost quite a lot of votes.

 

But while it helped keep Cameron in Downing Street, it might prove to be his biggest mistake. Fellow EU leaders don't have an appetite for any major reforms, because if a treaty is needed, many EU countries will also need referendums. Therefore it is quite possible only minor changes will be agreed and Cameron is going to have problems selling it to his party and the country. The Tories will be massively split during the referendum campaign and it might be difficult to unite the party again. The worst thing that could happen is that Cameron losses the vote to those wanting out of the EU. This could well lead to the break up of the UK and Cameron going down in history as having caused this, as well as the EU splitting. Other EU countries will also want votes to become independent again, with their own currencies.

[citizenB]

This could well lead to the break up of the UK and Cameron going down in history as having caused this, as well as the EU splitting. Other EU countries will also want votes to become independent again, with their own currencies.

 

 

I think the UK had already started to split thanks to Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon, so I think it is unfair to say that David Cameron would be responsible.

 

There would seem to me, to be a lot of unrest in the EU - not just in the UK. The less wealthier countries are going to be easily bullied in to sticking to the plans of Germany and France because they can be bribed. I reckon if Greece had another alternative, they would have left like a shot.

[Consumer dude]

It feels like the EU is doomed..

[obiter dictum]

It feels like the EU is doomed..

 

Only in the minds of selected individuals

 

The other half think the EU is a fantastic organisation for which i am one