Used an 'NHS only bay' in a council car park, got a PCN, but signs are too high up to read?

[Mike505]

Its between 10 and 12 feet up. You'll just have to take my word for it Jamberson,

 

 

I have no reason to distort the facts.

I was unfortunate enough to park in heavy rain.

You dont tilt your head upwards to get an eyeful of rain (I dont anyway).

 

 

Signs should be at or near eye level and marked on the ground in bays (blue lines are meaningless without accompanying labels)

and near the ticket machine, not 10 feet up in the air. Thats my point which the council refused to accept.

 

 

The council's inadequate response is: "there is no requirement for markings to be in the bays as they are painted blue in comparison to other bays".

[JoeyJoeC]

The blue means nothing. That sign looks way too high up, and too small at that height. Do you have an actual picture of the sign so we can read what it says? (Without risking your life with a step ladder that is).

 

Edit: Ignore my request, just seen the larger image.

[think about it]

Were you driving a convertible in the rain? Or was your sunroof open perhaps? I'm just curious as to how you couldn't see that as you approached it, or at least acknowledged the presence of a sign and checked it as you climbed out of the car.

 

To be honest, the 'water gets in my eyes' defence is only likely to spark raucous laughter in the appeals office. Listen (read) to what you're actually saying.

 

Interestingly, opposite my office is a disabled parking bay, both signs for which are a good ten foot up and no bigger than that one.

[mikeymack2002]

if you appeal this at the Council they will probably deny it, But if it goes to the adjudicator you should win due to the height size and location of the sign...

 

 

What would help your case even more and if possible to return to the site and stand underneath it with your arm stretched as far as it would go then the adjudicator can see just how stupidly high it is...

 

 

Also it may pay you to get a close-up of the sign on the far wall too..

 

 

You should say that the sign is side on to the driver and not clearly visible, (looking at the painting on the road and direction of travel) you should note as well the clutter of the masts in the background. Looking from the direction of travel you would only see 2mm of the side on view.

 

 

There does not seem to be any bays marked where the other two vehicles are and the sign beside them is also obscured

[Mike505]

Mr thinkaboutit,

my defence was NOT "water gets in my eyes.

It is the council should take reasonable measure to ensure their restrictions are CLEARLY marked.

 

 

In imposing penalties, the onus is on the council to provide clear and concise notice of parking restrictions

so that there is no shadow of a doubt that the motorist has intentionally committed an offence.

 

 

As mentioned earlier, the top floor of the car park had only a few NHS bays and there is no reason that I would want to park in a restricted bay

when so many other normal bays were empty. It was simply due to badly placed signs.

 

 

I was puzzled by the blue lines, but there were no markings on them.

The sign was there but OUT OF REASONABLE VIEW.

 

 

If the sign was sensibly placed they wouldn’t be reaping so many fines, and that is furtive and unfair.

 

They are not justified in penalising motorists for signs that are a minimum of 10 feet up on a post and out of line-of-sight.

It’s the council cash cow syndrome in play again and someone needs to put a stop to it.

It really is legalised extortion.

[Mike505]

Mickymack, thanks for the tips. Its obvious that they have not taken ample steps to warn customers but they still feel justified in taking their money. Their response was so complacent, ie in effect saying " cant you see the lines are blue in comparison to the white ones in other bays? To them that was sufficient reason for a mugging of £130.

[mikeymack2002]

Appeal get the case moved up to the adjudicator then see what they then say. Using some of the points listed above I cannot see any problem having this appeal succeed.. Let us know how you get on please and tell what you did to win as it may help others that have similar issues...

 

 

MM

[Mike505]

Much appreciated MM, will do.

[mikeymack2002]

This is what we do on CAG... I have successfully won numerous PCN's as have many others. It always helps out if the person appealing wins posts up how they go the result. This way others new to the site can quickly get basic knowledge of this...

 

 

I look forward to your successful appeal or further questions

 

 

 

 

MM

[Mike505]

Cheers MM will do and keep up the great work

[Jamberson]

Its between 10 and 12 feet up. You'll just have to take my word for it Jamberson, I have no reason to distort the facts. I was unfortunate enough to park in heavy rain. You dont tilt your head upwards to get an eyeful of rain (I dont anyway). Signs should be at or near eye level and marked on the ground in bays (blue lines are meaningless without accompanying labels) and near the ticket machine, not 10 feet up in the air. Thats my point which the council refused to accept. The council's inadequate response is: "there is no requirement for markings to be in the bays as they are painted blue in comparison to other bays".

 

Hi Mike. I think my previous post was not clear. I wasn't questioning your facts, just commenting on the strength of the photo. An adjudicator looking at it could not be sure how high up the sign is, and while I am happy to take your word for it, they would not be. If you had a shot, say, with you standing by the post, then it woud be obvious how high up it is.

 

One other thought - there is an onus on the driver to look for signs, but is this the only place blue bays are mentioned? If so, you could reasonably argue that you aren't expected to look for alternative restrictions in certain bays, unless you are somehow expecting them - these bays look like all the others, except that they are outlined in blue. How are you supposed to know that it makes a difference what colour paint they used?

 

Anyway - talk of adjudication is premature if the last thing you got was a Notice to Owner. You will have to make another written appeal to the council. Only if they reject that, would you be able to go to adjudication.

[Mike505]

Thanks Jamberson.

I have simply been penalised because I failed their tricky observation test and not because I have deliberately committed an offence.

 

 

I understand your claim that there is an onus on drivers to look for signs.

Signs need to be placed where they can be seen under any conditions. Rain, snow or wind.

When its pelting it down, the last thing you'd do is to look up.

You just want to run to the ticket machine and out of the rain as quick as you can.

If the sign was at eye level, even seated car passenger level, you couldnt miss it in any weather.

 

Painting "NHS ONLY" on the ground would also go some way to raise awareness, not just blue lines.

Nowhere in the highway code is there anything about blue lines on parking bays.

 

 

The car park consists of 5 levels.

The top level is roofless and that is the only level where the NHS bays are.

They NHS bays occupy about a fifth of the 5th level.

 

 

I will be making another appeal based on the helpful hints I have seen here.

 

 

Will keep you posted.

 

 

Thank you

[mikeymack2002]

The attachment below may be of assistance as well.... Let us know

 

 

Quote

• signs that are clear and easy to understand

• clearly marked parking bays.

 

 

Page 2 bullet points also of interest too... Similar information from here http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:EU1-oeXfRTkJ:www.parkingprotection.co.uk/pdfs/hospital-parking-charter.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

 

 

MM

[mikeymack2002]

One other thing that I forgot to ask does the notice you have say either "Penalty Charge Notice" or does it say "Parking Charge Notice"?

[Mike505]

Thank you MM.

 

 

In this case, I dont think the pdf is relevant because this is not a hospital car park.

But it is helpful in the sense that it outlines the rules governing hospital parking.

 

 

My guess is that space in this council car park have been contracted to the hospital.

 

 

The fact that you need a "card" or subscription to park in blue bays means (I think) its allocated to hospital staff and not hospital visitors.

[Mike505]

The notice says Penalty Charge Notice. Whats the difference?

[mikeymack2002]

The PDF is not for you was thinking you may come back with parking charge notice.. Appeal as advised then update... The difference is one is for a Council run car park (Penalty ) the other for private car park (Parking Charge) So appeal to the Council then see what they say then when time appeal to the next level

[stu007]

Hi

 

I can see a slight issue with the photo in post#23 yes we cannot tell the exact height from the photo of that sign on the lamp post but if you look to the right of the photo there is a London Borough of Croydon sign visible at pedestrian level and what does that sign say.

[mikeymack2002]

Using the vehicles in the background will assist the poster on appeal

[topcat1802]

Better still take someone with you. get them to stand under the sign, and take a new photograph with the person and the sign in view. When you appeal send this photo and include the heright of the person standing under the sign

[Jamberson]

Better still take someone with you. get them to stand under the sign, and take a new photograph with the person and the sign in view. When you appeal send this photo and include the heright of the person standing under the sign

 

Huh? Why not have that person photograph the appellant? If it goes to adjudication, the adjudicator can see the height of the person sitting in front of him, rather than relying on a claimed measurement of someone he's never seen.

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

Can someone actually show some legislation that determines the necessary sign height? It looks fine to me.

A lot of speed signs are 10 feet off the ground. Just measured the one outside my house in a 20 zone. Does this mean I can ignore the speed limit and just claim it was raining and therefore unable to look upwards?

[Jamberson]

I don't think there is a set height. These things tend to be done on the basis of what's reasonable and realistic, given the location and available posts etc. No you can't ignore the speed limit, but if the sign was 20 feet up and you could reasonably have not seen it, you would have a line of defence which might or might not work in court, depending on the circumstances - just like the OP in this situation (not court in this case, but an appeals system).

[mikeymack2002]

Check out the .gov site for road signs or read the PDF or check out here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/contents/made

 

 

or have a read here too

 

 

http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm

 

 

Hope it helps you GTSTL for a change lol

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

Thanks mm, but my speeding comment was tongue in cheek. I know what signs legal etc. I was asking for info r.e car park sign heights. Have read the links but nothing stands out.