Complicated leases and mortgages

[resources]

I have found out the following about a property:

 

• There is a woman and a man living in this property.
  
• The woman is the only freehold of the property with no mortgagor
  
• According to the title register the ground floor is leased by two parties: one party is the woman and the other party is the woman and the man
  
• According to the title register the first floor is also leased by the two same parties. One party is the woman and the other party is the woman and the man.
  
• It is important to note that the ground floor and the first floor are leased separately with different Title Registry numbers at the land registry and with two different mortgagors
  
• The third floor is not leased
  
• So there are three title registers in the Land Registry for this property one for the entire property, one of the ground floor and one for the second floor.
  

I have the following questions concerning these complicated leases and mortgages

 

1. Why the woman and the man who are living together have not bought together this property instead of only her bought it without a mortgage and then leased two of the three floors to the man and to herself with two different mortgages?
   
2. Why the two parties to these two leases are one the woman only and the other both her and the man instead of one party being the woman and the other the man?
   
3. Why the ground floor and first floor have been leased separately instead of being lease together?
   
4. Why these people have chosen two different mortgagors one for the lease for the ground and another for the lease for the first floor instead of using the same mortgagor for the two leases?
   
5. Why the woman did not take any mortgage when she bought the house but took two mortgages one year later when she leased the ground and the first floor to herself and to the man?
   
6. I would like to understand these two complicated leases and I would like to know if maybe this property has been leased in this way to have less tax to pay or less interest in the two mortgages for another reason?
   

[Ganymede]

Why do you want to know?

[resources]

I am interested in lease and mortgage issues because I found them fascinating and difficult to understand. I would like to increase my financial culture.

I think that my list of questions is quite challenging and we further ourselves by trying to reply to challenging questions

Edited June 28, 2015 by honeybee13
Editing font size to larger.

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

This isn't law coursework is it please?

 

HB

[resources]

I did not want to say too much not to reveal the identities but I will maybe rent a room in this property and I have done search in the Land Registry about it. It is why I have these questions. I would like to have some ideas about whether or not there could be something wrong with this property before renting a room in it. Moreover I find these questions interesting

Edited June 28, 2015 by honeybee13
Editing font size to larger.

[sillygirl1]

I don't see it is complicated - but then I do not study law - as far as I see it

 

1. The woman owns the whole building

2. The woman has divided the building into three flats - each flat has its own lease

3. The woman has chosen to have the ground floor flat in her name only

4. The woman has a lease with another person for the second floor flat

5. The woman has no separate lease for the third floor flat as there is no tenant

 

No complication here at all

[Andyorch]

Thread moved to the appropriate forum.

[resources]

1.

Unless I am wrong it seems to me that the woman has not divided the building into three flats because there is one leasehold for the ground floor, another leasehold for the first floor but no leasehold for the second floor

2.

The woman has not chosen to have the ground floor flat in her name only because it is the second floor which has no leasehold so which is entirely only at her name

3.

The woman has a lease with another person for the ground floor and another lease with the same person for the first floor

4.

It remains also the question why two mortgages company?

5.

I have another question which is the woman is the freeholder and has also a lease at her name for the ground floor and the first floor does this means that she pays a rent to herself?

[BazzaS]

If you are unhappy with the set-up : don't rent there.

 

To me :

Either you are being too nosy as a tenant (all that should matter to you is your lease being lawfully issued by the freeholder, if it isn't a sub-let), or a previous reply hit the nail on the head : property law study coursework?

[resources]

It is in my nature I like to understand anything in depth. Otherwise what would have been the point of starting this thread.

For me a forum is a social activity and I like to enjoy it the fullest.

I am not a student who struggles with his coursework

Edited June 28, 2015 by honeybee13
Editing font size so it doesn't hurt your eyes.

[BazzaS]

None of which actually denies you are a student, or studying law, or that it is your coursework : just that you say you aren't "a student who struggles with his coursework" - that could even mean you are in fact a student who struggles with HER coursework!, and you'd still be being truthful ....

 

After all in January you were talking about your educational institution ....

My educational institution is a charity incorporated by Royal Charter

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?419412-I-have-been-refused-to-resit-an-examination&p=4671942#post4671942

[BazzaS]

I have found out the following about a property:

 

• There is a woman and a man living in this property.
  
• The woman is the only freehold of the property with no mortgagor
  
• According to the title register the ground floor is leased by two parties: one party is the woman and the other party is the woman and the man
  
• According to the title register the first floor is also leased by the two same parties. One party is the woman and the other party is the woman and the man.
  
• It is important to note that the ground floor and the first floor are leased separately with different Title Registry numbers at the land registry and with two different mortgagors
  
• The third floor is not leased
  
• So there are three title registers in the Land Registry for this property one for the entire property, one of the ground floor and one for the second floor.
  

I have the following questions concerning these complicated leases and mortgages

 

1. Why the woman and the man who are living together have not bought together this property instead of only her bought it without a mortgage and then leased two of the three floors to the man and to herself with two different mortgages?
   
2. Why the two parties to these two leases are one the woman only and the other both her and the man instead of one party being the woman and the other the man?
   
3. Why the ground floor and first floor have been leased separately instead of being lease together?
   
4. Why these people have chosen two different mortgagors one for the lease for the ground and another for the lease for the first floor instead of using the same mortgagor for the two leases?
   
5. Why the woman did not take any mortgage when she bought the house but took two mortgages one year later when she leased the ground and the first floor to herself and to the man?
   
6. I would like to understand these two complicated leases and I would like to know if maybe this property has been leased in this way to have less tax to pay or less interest in the two mortgages for another reason?
   

 

By an astounding coincidence, someone has posted exactly the same set of facts at :

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?68879-Can-this-property-be-a-single-dwelling-house&p=549647

 

But, there the question is "Can-this-property-be-a-single-dwelling-house", rather than an enquiry because they are considering renting ......

[resources]

I posted a thread about my educational institution because it did not want me anymore as a student so I am not a student. Moreover I do not think that a teacher will give these kind of questions as coursework

I am entitled to rent like anyone else in this property even though maybe I will not do and at the same time I am entitled to query about or not it is a single dwelling house. However it is different matters it is why I posted two different threads. I have to compliment you for your investigation work. However it will be very nice to have a reply to my questions

Edited June 28, 2015 by honeybee13

[ericsbrother]

To answert he question, the building is subdivided into flats. The head tenancy could vary becuase each person has differing Inheritance Tax considerations and it is efficient to divide the property accordingly. Also theymay well rent out or intend to sell one of the flats and that would attract either income or capital gains tax in different proportions according to who owns what.

What marks do I get?

[Ganymede]

1.

Unless I am wrong it seems to me that the woman has not divided the building into three flats because there is one leasehold for the ground floor, another leasehold for the first floor but no leasehold for the second floor

2.

The woman has not chosen to have the ground floor flat in her name only because it is the second floor which has no leasehold so which is entirely only at her name

3.

The woman has a lease with another person for the ground floor and another lease with the same person for the first floor

4.

It remains also the question why two mortgages company?

5.

I have another question which is the woman is the freeholder and has also a lease at her name for the ground floor and the first floor does this means that she pays a rent to herself?

 

The short answer is her rent and mortgage situation is none of your business.

[BazzaS]

I posted a thread about my educational institution because it did not want me anymore as a student so I am not a student. Moreover I do not think that a teacher will give these kind of questions as coursework

I am entitled to rent like anyone else in this property even though maybe I will not do and at the same time I am entitled to query about or not it is a single dwelling house. However it is different matters it is why I posted two different threads. I have to compliment you for your investigation work. However it will be very nice to have a reply to my questions

 

It wasn't much "investigation work". Google, a memory for patterns, and pattern recognition sufficed.

 

If your educational institution "didn't want you as a student anymore", and "refused you a resit" : how does that sit with

 

"I am not a student who struggles with his coursework

 

What was the reason you left that institution then?

Has another now taken you?

[resources]

The reply from ‘ericsbrother’ is very important because it says “To answer the question, the building is subdivided into flats”. However the sticking point is that the owner of the property says that her property is a single dwelling house. Hence the question is it is a block of flats or a single dwelling house? It is why I am so confused and I have posted these two different threads in two different forums because by comparing the replies from these two forums maybe I will get an answer.

Hence I invite you to have a look at my other thread in the other forum and maybe you will able to reply to my question.

I am not a student but obviously I cannot prove it to you but I think this is not relevant

 

Edited June 28, 2015 by honeybee13
Font size edited so it doesn't hurt your eyes.

[honeybee13]

1. I would like to understand these two complicated leases and I would like to know if maybe this property has been leased in this way to have less tax to pay or less interest in the two mortgages for another reason?
   

 

 

Maybe they have bought the property as part of a SIPP or SSAS pension scheme, with the inherent tax advantages? I don't see how it affects you as a tenant though.

HB

[resources]

This property was bought only her and not by him

[honeybee13]

This property was bought only her and not by him

 

But how is that relevant please?

 

HB

[honeybee13]

Incidentally, on your thread on the other forum that was spotted by BazzaS, they are suggesting that you consult a solicitor, because of the complexity I imagine.

 

HB

[Andyorch]

Incidentally, on your thread on the other forum that was spotted by BazzaS, they are suggesting that you consult a solicitor, because of the complexity I imagine.

 

HB

 

But only if this is not hypothetical

[honeybee13]

But only if this is not hypothetical

 

Good point, AO.

 

HB

[sillygirl1]

Could be the same scenario a friend had once - a large house divided at different times into three flats, as each of her children grew up and became of age they had a lease made up for one of the flats with my friend retaining an interest as 'managing agent', eventually as each child became 'of age' and got a mortgage her name appeared on the title. There was 18 months between the two flats being mortgaged. My friend lived on the ground floor, first child on first floor and second child on second floor.

 

Eventually as each child moved out the title reverted back to my friend as overall owner of the property - all perfectly legal and above board.

[resources]

It is relevant to be sure that you have properly understood my questions