Caught using a child train ticket which was sold by a member of staff! please help very worried - ** SETTLED **

[Old-CodJA]

Thank you for this! Do you think they may let me settle it out of court if I do this and actively seek to resolve the matter, I can't afford to get a criminal record it would ruin my life and it is causing me a lot of distress

 

 

 

If the TOC confirm that they do have a report in your name I think that others who have pointed out that your story does not ring wholly true may have a valid point and I have probably heard every excuse under the sun during many years in this line of work. I think that FCC may rightly be considering prosecution, however that does not always mean that a prosecution manager has no room for sympathy.

 

If this is the first time you have been caught out,

If you are entirely truthful and contrite in your response,

If you show genuine remorse and explain that the effect of a successful prosecution would have a disproportionate effect on your chosen career and future at this stage of your life,

If you offer to pay all of their reasonable administration costs plus the fare that you avoided, (don't make an offer of ridiculously high settlement figure, they would only get around £150 if this went to Court and they succeeded in getting a conviction so you have an idea what to do now.)

 

If you do all of the above they will consider this fairly.

 

Any letter that you write ought to contain an apology to the company and staff concerned and a promise to hold a valid ticket on all future rail journeys.

 

 

Enjoy your holiday

[jessicaa]

If the TOC confirm that they do have a report in your name I think that others who have pointed out that your story does not ring wholly true may have a valid point and I have probably heard every excuse under the sun during many years in this line of work. I think that FCC may rightly be considering prosecution, however that does not always mean that a prosecution manager has no room for sympathy.

 

If this is the first time you have been caught out,

If you are entirely truthful and contrite in your response,

If you show genuine remorse and explain that the effect of a successful prosecution would have a disproportionate effect on your chosen career and future at this stage of your life,

If you offer to pay all of their reasonable administration costs plus the fare that you avoided, (don't make an offer of ridiculously high settlement figure, they would only get around £150 if this went to Court and they succeeded in getting a conviction so you have an idea what to do now.)

 

If you do all of the above they will consider this fairly.

 

Any letter that you write ought to contain an apology to the company and staff concerned and a promise to hold a valid ticket on all future rail journeys.

 

 

Enjoy your holiday

 

Thanks for your help! As my story seems to not ring as wholly truthful even though it is how could I reword it or phrase it better then?

[Old-CodJA]

Thanks for your help! As my story seems to not ring as wholly truthful even though it is how could I reword it or phrase it better then?

 

 

 

 

 

Experienced prosecution department staff who have been in the job for only a relatively short while will quickly become aware of the huge numbers of young adults, 18 +, who purchase 'Child rate' tickets and claim not to have known that it was an offence to claim that discount, even after having given a false age or date of birth.

 

I think they all very quickly recognise that the likelihood of it being 'the first time I've ever done this' when someone is 3 years past the qualifying age is pretty low. It may well be the first time that many are caught out, but if someone is doing this at 18 years of age, it begs the question what did they do at 16 and 17 years of age? If it really is true it doesn't make the attempt any less of an offence.

 

Don't make comments about it being 'the first time', nor should you say 'I thought it was OK because I am a student', but concentrate on the apology, the likely effect of prosecution and ask for an opportunity to make amends by an alternative disposal.

[jessicaa]

Experienced prosecution department staff who have been in the job for only a relatively short while will quickly become aware of the huge numbers of young adults, 18 +, who purchase 'Child rate' tickets and claim not to have known that it was an offence to claim that discount, even after having given a false age or date of birth.

 

I think they all very quickly recognise that the likelihood of it being 'the first time I've ever done this' when someone is 3 years past the qualifying age is pretty low. It may well be the first time that many are caught out, but if someone is doing this at 18 years of age, it begs the question what did they do at 16 and 17 years of age? If it really is true it doesn't make the attempt any less of an offence.

 

Don't make comments about it being 'the first time', nor should you say 'I thought it was OK because I am a student', but concentrate on the apology, the likely effect of prosecution and ask for an opportunity to make amends by an alternative disposal.

 

So even though they may ask me for version of events I should leave out that it was the first time? What should I say as to what the reason I purchased the child ticket if I shouldn't mention that I thought I could as I'm a student?

[Old-CodJA]

So even though they may ask me for version of events I should leave out that it was the first time? What should I say as to what the reason I purchased the child ticket if I shouldn't mention that I thought I could as I'm a student?

 

 

 

An uncharacteristic error of judgment resulted in the purchase of an incorrect ticket

[jessicaa]

An uncharacteristic error of judgment resulted in the purchase of an incorrect ticket

 

And with regards to realising I had the wrong ticket should I stick with my same story of seeing the penalty fare notices and lying because I panicked? Also if they do encounter a lot of 18+ on child's tickets do they investigate all cases and proceed with them all? I just can't afford to get a criminal record and will do anything to avoid one

Edited July 6, 2014 by jessicaa

[jessicaa]

I have an update and was hoping for some more help! I have received a letter from the prosecution department but first of all they have for my name wrong I don't know if this affects anything, secondly they have no stated under what law or by-law they intend to prosecute under and lastly it says my offence is entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a ticket entitling travel when I was stopped trying to leave the station not trying to get on a train, what should I do now?

[firstclassx]

I have an update and was hoping for some more help! I have received a letter from the prosecution department but first of all they have for my name wrong I don't know if this affects anything, secondly they have no stated under what law or by-law they intend to prosecute under and lastly it says my offence is entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a ticket entitling travel when I was stopped trying to leave the station not trying to get on a train, what should I do now?

 

You still committed the offence of travelling without a ticket entitling travel, you just got caught afterwards.

 

But in any event, that offence is actually Railway Byelaw 18(1), so you have no defence available at all, and would have to plead guilty if it ends up in court.

 

As for the name, it is presumably just a small typo/spelling mistake/name variation, which is easily corrected at any stage in the process, so you'd be better to inform them yourself, when you reply.

 

You need to write a careful apology letter, accepting full responsibility for your actions, and make assurances that this will not happen again in the future.

You will also need to offer to cover their administrative costs, and any fares which may be due. Realistically you will need to set aside between £100 and £300 to cover this.

 

Whilst they are under no obligation to drop the case, as long as you are obviously/genuinely apologetic and make it financially worthwhile, it should close the matter.

[jessicaa]

You still committed the offence of travelling without a ticket entitling travel, you just got caught afterwards.

 

But in any event, that offence is actually Railway Byelaw 18(1), so you have no defence available at all, and would have to plead guilty if it ends up in court.

 

As for the name, it is presumably just a small typo/spelling mistake/name variation, which is easily corrected at any stage in the process, so you'd be better to inform them yourself, when you reply.

 

You need to write a careful apology letter, accepting full responsibility for your actions, and make assurances that this will not happen again in the future.

You will also need to offer to cover their administrative costs, and any fares which may be due. Realistically you will need to set aside between £100 and £300 to cover this.

 

Whilst they are under no obligation to drop the case, as long as you are obviously/genuinely apologetic and make it financially worthwhile, it should close the matter.

 

Do you think there's a good chance of settling out of court as they're prosecuting under byelaw 18 instead of section 5! And does prosecution under bye law 18 lead to a criminal record or not?

[Old-CodJA]

Do you think there's a good chance of settling out of court as they're prosecuting under byelaw 18 instead of section 5! And does prosecution under bye law 18 lead to a criminal record or not?

 

 

 

Yes, provided that your response has been suitably contrite. Although the Byelaw offence is strict liability and therefore very easy for the TOC to secure conviction, prosecutors are not generally without heart. If you have made clear a sincere apology and offered to cover their full costs plus fare and if this is genuinely a first offence, that is that you also have no previous warnings for not holding valid rail tickets, then I don't see why FCC should not agree administrative disposal.

[fletch70]

Depending on what your Uni degree is and what career you plan to take a small conviction may really be of no consequence. I know someone with a conviction for fraud who was accepted by one of the old universities (as opposed to the new unis) for a B.A. hons

 

The rehabilitaion of offenders act means most convictions are spent are a certain time . Even a suspended sentence is spent after 4 years and that is far more than you will get

[honeybee13]

I don't think we're talking any sort of prison sentence, fletch. Let's not worry Jessica unnecessarily.

 

HB

[jessicaa]

Yes, provided that your response has been suitably contrite. Although the Byelaw offence is strict liability and therefore very easy for the TOC to secure conviction, prosecutors are not generally without heart. If you have made clear a sincere apology and offered to cover their full costs plus fare and if this is genuinely a first offence, that is that you also have no previous warnings for not holding valid rail tickets, then I don't see why FCC should not agree administrative disposal.

 

So in the letter is all I need to do explain what happened with the rpi, apologise and ask them to settle out of court? If they don't want to settle out of court can I still get a criminal record from a byelaw offence because I'm worried it would affect me visiting family in America aswell if it does!

[fletch70]

No i am sure we are not, all I was trying to say is that any conviction doesn't have to ruin chances of uni

[BazzaS]

So in the letter is all I need to do explain what happened with the rpi, apologise and ask them to settle out of court? If they don't want to settle out of court can I still get a criminal record from a byelaw offence because I'm worried it would affect me visiting family in America aswell if it does!

 

A bylaw conviction would show on an enhanced DBS (eDBS), but not a "Standard Disclosure".

 

Neither of these directly equates to the US's immigration rules : so, if convicted I'd advise:

1) Not relying on a Visa Waiver

2 ) Applying for a US Visa , declaring the conviction, stressing it is not a major offence (fine only, dealt with in a Magistrates' Court)

3) this way you can't get turned back at the border if they do know about it, that you might if you relied on the Visa Waiver

4) having declared it they wouldn't have reason to revoke a visa for "not declaring it."

 

So, even if you can't settle out of court, a conviction isn't the end of the world, and may mean a few more hoops to jump through to be sure of still bring able to visit the US : but it shouldn't be insurmountable

[jessicaa]

A bylaw conviction would show on an enhanced DBS (eDBS), but not a "Standard Disclosure".

 

Neither of these directly equates to the US's immigration rules : so, if convicted I'd advise:

1) Not relying on a Visa Waiver

2 ) Applying for a US Visa , declaring the conviction, stressing it is not a major offence (fine only, dealt with in a Magistrates' Court)

3) this way you can't get turned back at the border if they do know about it, that you might if you relied on the Visa Waiver

4) having declared it they wouldn't have reason to revoke a visa for "not declaring it."

 

So, even if you can't settle out of court, a conviction isn't the end of the world, and may mean a few more hoops to jump through to be sure of still bring able to visit the US : but it shouldn't be insurmountable

 

So does this mean id have to declare it when applying for university and jobs?

[BazzaS]

So does this mean id have to declare it when applying for university and jobs?

 

A Byelaw offence isn't "recordable" in the way a S5.3 RRA 1889 offence is, so it may not show on their checks, so it is up to you, BUT

 

If the conviction isn't spent : I'd suggest declaring it.

It is a minor offence : I'd hope it wouldn't count against you, especially if you explain the circumstances.

Are you willing to take the chance you hide it, they find out, and then you appear to be a liar who can't be trusted?

 

If the conviction is 'spent', then no, you don't have to mention it UNLESS the application notes that the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act doesn't apply, in which case you must declare it (and they'll likely do an eDBS, which will show it, and you DON'T want to be caught fibbing!)

 

Same train of thought as for US Immigration (where the UK's Rehab of Offenders doesn't apply!), better to be open and honest and reveal a minor offence than risk being seen to make a dishonest application.

(Dishonesty on a US Visa application is seen as one of their major "red flags" : in theory it can be grounds for them NEVER granting a Visa)

[Stigy]

So does this mean id have to declare it when applying for university and jobs?

 

If asked if you've ever had a conviction within a set amount of time, saying 'no' would be lying. It may not be recorded, but if an employer found out, then it's your integrity that's brought in to question and chances are you'd not be working there much longer.

 

Bear in mind that the Rehabilitation of Offenders act doesn't apply to certain professions either.

[fletch70]

There are certain convictions that a University will frown on these being serious violence related and sexually related crimes . as for the rehabilitation of offenders act, it was amended this year http://www.nacro.org.uk/what-we-do/resettlement-advice-service/reforms-to-the-rehabilitation-of-offenders-act/

 

Assuming the worse case scenario of getting a conviction then the official line is that yes you should declare it and if this was for a visa or university I would have to agree. I know many people who do not say so on job applications but that is a decision you have to make.

If of course they don't ask then you need not tell (on a job application) . If it says it is exempt from the ROA you must tell as an enhanced check will show it up, if it is not exempt, once spent you have no need to say anything even if asked

[gigs]

Do my children need train tickets?

Children between the ages of five and fifteen are entitled to a discount of at least 50% on most tickets. Some train companies also offer a cheaper flat fare for accompanied children.

 

Sorry for the off topic, is it the buses which are free (not just discounted) for ppl between 5 and 15 (in London).

 

Also Universities start asking for past criminal history like certain jobs now and doing background checks? Wasn't like that back in the early 2000's.

[fletch70]

Most job applications ask for you to disclose unspent criminal convictions and some jobs by law can search for any criminal conviction ever.

 

Some universities may ask for unspent criminal convictions but what they are looking for is about just how appropriate it is to have you there, For example if you have a history of violence or sexual offences or a conviction for animal rights activism (not just protesting but things like breaking into labs, harming people etc). It is for the safety of their students and their reputation, after all any university that has any links to using animals would not want someone whose stance is to cause harm and damage.

 

Personally I am not defending animal research but I am against what is politely called direct action

[jessicaa]

Just wanted to provide an update that after writing a letter to the fcc prosecution department and talking to the prosecutions manager I have been able to settle out of court and just pay them a fee, I also just wanted to say thanks to everyone on here for providing the help and assistance that you did!

[honeybee13]

Hello again. I'm pleased you've been able to settle and hope you don't have the problem again.

 

Thank you for coming back to tell us, I'll update your thread titile.

 

HB