Discussion. Mental illness when does help become hindrance to recovery?

[Shendor]

Hey, I've been addicted to this forum for a long while now and what I've realised is most people talking about ESA problems are always talking exclusively about 'Anxiety/Depression' issues - not physical illnesses.

 

It's all relative of course, but I suffered from massive anxiety and depression back in 09, I never took the easy option of looking for ESA WRAG group because I felt there was a stigma attached. (I'm now in a big financial hole because I didn't and have been stuck on JSA jumping through crazy hoops).

 

But the point I'd like to make is that now five years later - even though my life is terrible and I have no money, I'm not looking for easy get-out-clauses. The worst thing you could have told me back in 09 was to give in and get 'on the sick' signed off. Sometimes with things like depression and anxiety we need it for a few months, but it's usually a temporary condition due to circumstances and chemical imbalances in the brain. The worst thing you can say to someone with anxiety is that - 'it's alright, you're now useless to society, so we'll indulge you and here's a letter that says you never have to make an effort again'.

 

Sometimes we can't engage with society because we feel awful. Fair enough, we've paid in to a system that allows us to take some time out and get free money. But eventually we need to get back stuck in. The worst thing is to get a diagnosis that explains why we can't help ourselves and then look for people who'll pander to our new found victimhood status?

 

Hope no one takes me wrong with this opinion. But thank god no one wrote me off when I was anxious and depressed as a permanent no hope of change - unlike someone with a physical condition that no amount of money or therapy would ever fix.

[BazzaS]

Hey, I've been addicted to this forum for a long while now and what I've realised is most people talking about ESA problems are always talking exclusively about 'Anxiety/Depression' issues - not physical illnesses.

 

It's all relative of course, but I suffered from massive anxiety and depression back in 09, I never took the easy option of looking for ESA WRAG group because I felt there was a stigma attached. (I'm now in a big financial hole because I didn't and have been stuck on JSA jumping through crazy hoops).

 

But the point I'd like to make is that now five years later - even though my life is terrible and I have no money, I'm not looking for easy get-out-clauses. The worst thing you could have told me back in 09 was to give in and get 'on the sick' signed off. Sometimes with things like depression and anxiety we need it for a few months, but it's usually a temporary condition due to circumstances and chemical imbalances in the brain. The worst thing you can say to someone with anxiety is that - 'it's alright, you're now useless to society, so we'll indulge you and here's a letter that says you never have to make an effort again'.

 

Sometimes we can't engage with society because we feel awful. Fair enough, we've paid in to a system that allows us to take some time out and get free money. But eventually we need to get back stuck in. The worst thing is to get a diagnosis that explains why we can't help ourselves and then look for people who'll pander to our new found victimhood status?

 

Hope no one takes me wrong with this opinion. But thank god no one wrote me off when I was anxious and depressed as a permanent no hope of change - unlike someone with a physical condition that no amount of money or therapy would ever fix.

 

Nothing wrong with taking available support & getting better from a mental health viewpoint.

 

Some people won't improve to a point where they can return to work, and should still be supported by the system, though.

On first read of your comments :

a) I'm glad you are better,

b) it could be taken to be somewhat suggesting "just pull yourself together !", which, having gone through it yourself, you'll know is not a viable approach!

[Shendor]

Thanks for not misunderstanding me BazzaS. That whole "Just pull yourself together" is crazy of course, and would've been ridiculous to me too back in the day. But, we can get better if it's issues like anxiety and depression - mental illnesses that are psychological rather than psychiatric (Understand the difference). It just makes me sad when I read this section of CAG and nearly everyone (not all but most) are talking about their anxiety and depression issues as permanent disabilities - rather than hoping with the right support they may change next month? I have colleagues with physical diseases that mean no how much they learn about themselves or how much their life changes, they'll never be 'fixed'.

 

It's too easy to play the panic attack and depression card, to the detriment of people who really need money because they are physically ****ed without hope whichever way we look at it. At least with non-psychiatric conditions there is a chance we can get better, and the less we are indulged the more chance we stand.

[antone]

/Moderating

 

This won't go well, and I was seriously tempted to shut it down before the chaos starts. However, OK, for now let's discuss the topic. Could I just ask that everyone, including the original poster, thinks very damn carefully about what they say in response.

 

/Not moderating

 

Shendor, you have found solutions to your mental health issues, and for that you are to be congratulated. But you are guilty here, I think, in deploying the "If we can land a man on the moon" logical fallacy. That is, we often hear people say "If we can land a man on the moon, why can't we....?" and then go on to name a far more difficult and intractable problem.

 

For example: "If we can land a man on the moon, why can't we have world peace and all live in blissful harmony with each other?" Well, it's because landing a man on the moon was a clearly defined task, with an obvious set of goals and and understandable progression, a checklist if you like, of steps we'd need to cover achieve in order to reach that final goal.

 

And there's the difference between a simple physical condition and a complex mental one - we simply don't understand the brain well enough to create that checklist of steps we'd need in order to make a person better. This of course, is not the case for someone who has, say, a broken leg. We know how to fix that, and most critically of all, we know what the solution will look like. Even if the path to that solution is difficult, we at least know how to work toward the goal.

 

So no, there aren't a whole bunch of people on ESA for mental health issues who will suddenly get better and miraculously land in remunerative employment if we simply cut off their benefits. And no-one is "writing them off" simply by ensuring that they don't starve to death in a gutter before our doctors and other experts can figure out a way to patch them up as best they can.

[Shendor]

Thank you Antone for not shutting down debate - I agree it's a razor edge debate but hopefully we are all mature enough to conduct oursleves responsibily. My only point is that as someone who has genuinely suffered and I mean SUFFERED from anxiety and depression and (maybe touch wood) come out the other side for now, my observations are that the worst thing for me would have been for anyone to induldge me in my own ego-suffering, rather than forced me to think outside of myself and focus on things other than labels given to me.

 

I read so many posts that say: "I can't possibly be expected to work because I have a diagnosis of anxiety and depression too, therefore leave me alone from ever having to look for work again, just keep paying me money forever, and if you don't it's not fair, etc".

 

Maybe I'm still 'vulnerable' and need treating with kid gloves, maybe I'm not. Who knows? Either way, thank you for not shutting down the debate.

[Lilly_Monroe]

I suffer from MH issues and believe me I do not give easily but sadly, there are days when it controls me, adn those days arrive with NO warning, so I am not sure how working would fit in with those days.

There is NO one fix for MH issues, (I wish there was) and I am thankful for the financial help and support I get (I had no option other than to take the 'handouts') call them what you will.

 

It all depends what causes the problems, and it is not right nor fare to say we can all get better because I did (well done you by the way ) but some people are not able to get their life back into shape over night, some as already said, never it all, depends on the clinical diagnosis and what the root cause is.

 

I have come to understand over the months/years since I developed MH issues how fragile the mind is - what once I could think, do and say with my eyes shut has become a massive obstacle, it is as if a part of me has closed down and I live in this little world that is getting smaller and smaller (believe me if I had fully given into it, I would not be here at this present time) many are the times I have thought about it - it is when you stop thinking about it, and just do it that you know your time has come (and that is the scary part) because as already said some days it controls me...

 

No one should feel ashamed of taking the help if they are truly ill - I would be a liability as part of my illness is lack of concentration I do not even drive any more.

 

I am not a label, I am just ill and like all illnesses I did not ask for it to come visit me it just did.

[Shendor]

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they’re yours." (Richard Bach). Exactly what I'm saying about MH - (unless your MH is physically psychiatric brain damage, rather than a life situation psychological MH issue...)

 

shendor x

[honeybee13]

Hello Shendor.

 

I joined CAG when I was an IB claimant. I also had anxiety depression for some time and seem to have come through it, as long as nothing derails me. I think it's impossible to say who will get better and why, or what treatment will help them come through. I hope many will because it's not a good place to be, but some won't, sadly.

 

There certainly isn't a one size fits all fix and I don't think we should kid ourselves that there is.

 

HB

[Shendor]

Honeybee! the gatekeeper of all posts. holder of responses till the people with knowledge come around. I'm honoured you responded to my humble post. BE, Honey bee. x

[honeybee13]

 

HB

[Mr.P]

"If we can land a man on the moon, why can't we....?"

 

Landing a man on the moon is one thing. Getting him back in one piece and alive is a whole new problem -Sure, the Americans succeeded on a number of occasions, but it cost the lives of several good men, dogs, and monkeys in the process along with a hell of a lot of money.

 

To paraphrase Neil Armstrong, each day "is one small step".

[antone]

Honeybee! the gatekeeper of all posts. holder of responses till the people with knowledge come around. I'm honoured you responded to my humble post. BE, Honey bee. x

 

When I allowed this thread to remain open, despite the obvious trainwreck that it's about to become, I asked people, including you, to be "damn careful" about what they say.

 

This post falls far short of that requirement. You do realise, Shendor, that neither CAG nor the world in general owes you a platform for your views? I ask that question because we are often overwhelmed by people who don't know what free speech actually involves. Here's a hint: it means you can't be arrested for crapping on your own rug. It doesn't mean we have to let you crap on ours.

 

Cut this out right now. Not a request.

[antone]

Landing a man on the moon is one thing. Getting him back in one piece and alive is a whole new problem -Sure, the Americans succeeded on a number of occasions, but it cost the lives of several good men, dogs, and monkeys in the process along with a hell of a lot of money.

 

To paraphrase Neil Armstrong, each day "is one small step".

 

No argument with any of that, Mr P, but I think the point remains. It was obvious what needed to be done to land a man on the moon and (as you note) return him safely. Indeed, I think the "returning" was part of JFK's original commitment, wasn't it?

 

My point, really, was metaphorical. It's a hell of a lot easier to figure out how to fix a broken leg than it is to figure out how to fix someone's brain. But we don't, as a general rule, tell people who break their legs to stop moaning and just get over it, and we most certainly don't suggest that poverty is a cure for a broken leg. And if the threat of starvation won't cure those with broken legs (one of the simpler organs) then why on Earth should we think it would cure a broken brain?

 

That's why it's a fallacy. If you ordered me tomorrow, at gunpoint, to solve one of two problems, my choice, and they are:

 

1) Getting a man to the moon and returning him safely; or

2) Curing all mental illness

 

then I'm going with 1) and frankly it's not even close.

[Asleep In Wonder]

Although it's obvious that mental health issues need to be discussed in our society, I believe that they should only be discussed in respectful and educated terms.

 

 

There must be hundreds of people who read the threads here who are fighting with everything they have to even gain access to effective treatment for enduring and life wrecking conditions. Statements that imply that a person can just pull their socks up and stop being so self indulgent because someone else did that, have proved to be so damaging, that they could put someone off seeking help. Who am I kidding? They DO put people off getting help.

 

 

Shendor, I'm sure you didn't intend to add to the stigma and difficulty of those with MH issues, but the tone of your post implies the very things that stops people getting help.

 

 

I'm glad that you have found a way to feeling better yourself. I sincerely hope that you never experience issues that cannot be solved by simply working hard or pulling up of socks.

 

 

I don't see much in the way of understanding of mental health issues, or knowledge about the nature of mental distress from the OP. Placing the word "genuinely" alongside statements about having mental health issues is a very disrespectful use of language and perpetuates the self indulgent scrounger rhetoric that so many of us are sick to death of.

 

 

Antone, please close this thread down. Thank you.

[Lilly_Monroe]

Well I see I was wrong in thinking/trusting you wanted a serious discussion about MH issues.

Your replies are one of the reasons why MH suffers tend not to open up (for the fear of ridicule)

I agree this thread should be locked as the original poster has no intention of treating the matter with the sensitivity/understanding it deserves.

[Fuzzgin]

I've had depression and was on I.B. for a while. I got better and that was 10 years ago but I never feel cured. In remission perhaps. Put me in a difficult situation and it could easily come back. I'm in a severely stressful situation with work at the moment and feel that it may although to what extent I don't know.

 

What I do know is that having to battle with the DWP, ATOS and WP providers while already suffering from agonising symptoms would be enough to tip me over the edge. It's a horrible thing to do to anyone who is ill for whatever reason.

[BazzaS]

Thanks for not misunderstanding me BazzaS.

...........

 

issues like anxiety and depression - mental illnesses that are psychological rather than psychiatric (Understand the difference).

 

.

 

I didn't think I was misunderstanding you, and I note you thanked me for it

 

However, I thought your post easily could be felt to be intended to demean - and said as much. It seems others do so too, and nothing you have posted since changes my view.

 

Tell me, since when has depression been "psychological" rather than "psychiatric"?

You can be treated by a psychiatrist (rather than a psychologist) for depression, detained under the mental health act for depression, treated with ECT under the MHA on the advice of a psychiatrist .... Where do you get this false impression that depression is psychological not psychiatric?.

 

More importantly : how do you define if something is psychological or psychiatric (DSM-5 took some 15 years to be produced, and has generated lots if animated discussion).

If a person has severe symptoms, why should it matter?

 

Anyhow, it is up to the site team if they want to lock this thread. I don't get to tell them what to do, but I hope they consider views : my view is unless you start explaining your position better, with reasoned discussion and non-perjorative phrasing - then the thread isn't serving a purpose and should be closed?

[citizenB]

Each person is different, regardless of whether there is a similarity. That said, what works for one person, will not work for another. We all deal with all aspects of life in our own way.

 

Think about the Paralympics. These people have battled long and hard to manage their disabilities and compete in the toughest sports arena. However, that does not mean that anyone can say "why cant all disabled people do the same".

[Lilly_Monroe]

When I was first diagnosed with MH problems I did not see/class it as a disability.

I truly believed that a disability was an injury or illness such as cancer.

It was my CPN who told me that MH issues are classed as a disability, and just because the person with a MH problem looks healthy they still have a disability which effects their daily life.

 

We are all different and I know people think 'pull your socks up' get over it get on with life - but they would never say to a person suffering from Cancer, 'well be grateful for the good days' so why treat MH sufferers with any less understanding.

[Shendor]

Apologies to all - I was drunk and feeling mean last night. No offence meant to anyone. Sorry.

[BazzaS]

Apologies to all - I was drunk and feeling mean last night. No offence meant to anyone. Sorry.

 

Wow, when I'm drunk enough (fortunately I'm not usually any more mean when drunk!) to do silly things, I wouldn't be able to type as clearly as you did.

 

Seems like you got (and continue to get) a lot of reaction for (now, increasingly) small effort.

[antone]

Apologies to all - I was drunk and feeling mean last night. No offence meant to anyone. Sorry.

 

Thanks for that, and I think we can put an end to this before there is any more nastiness.