Taking O2 and debt collection agencies to court?

[ericsbrother]

What they mean is that you wouldnt like to see your brothers in troublwe with the law so they will continue to harass you as that isnt a criminal offence that they will get banged up for, being a corporation. call their bluff and tell them that you are happy for the matter to go to court and you will assist them in any way you can. Now that they accept that it was a fraudulent account (which is why you want everything in writing as they will now backtrack) they can call off their goon squad and close tha ccounts.

[problemswitho2]

What they mean is that you wouldnt like to see your brothers in troublwe with the law so they will continue to harass you as that isnt a criminal offence that they will get banged up for, being a corporation. call their bluff and tell them that you are happy for the matter to go to court and you will assist them in any way you can. Now that they accept that it was a fraudulent account (which is why you want everything in writing as they will now backtrack) they can call off their goon squad and close tha ccounts.

 

Too late for that. I've just submitted a Monelyclaim online for £1000.

 

I wasn't in the country... Whoever opened the accouts has nothing to do with me. They call this a civil matter so I've made it one. The irony is he said that one of the phones had been used to call my own number ... When I said I'm hardly likely to call myself, he said that I might have taken phones out and given them out like Xmas presents.

 

Overall I just feel this is just a company trying to pick on people and get their own way. I'm never going to be the smartest bloke in the world... However they don't realise that I don't back down from fights and I don't let myself be picked on.

 

I've already sent the letter before action to cabot financial... And will be starting proceedings against them when their seven days are up. I'm praying Lowell do issue proceedings next week so I can counter sue.

 

The irony is when you add up the cost of the ombudsman and then instructing a lawyer and coming to my home court, even if they win it will cost them more than if they had just closed the accounts and written it off.

[rebel11]

Thread moved to General Legal Issues.

[problemswitho2]

Okay - Update coming, and some advice required.

 

All of the defaults have now been removed from my credit file.

 

The DCA's removed them off their own back, after O2 decided to not provide them with any information about the accounts.

 

So on that front I have "won".

 

Both DCA's have given me written assurance that the debt will not be sold,

reassigned or passed back to the original creditor.

In fairness they have been really reasonable about this.

 

However today I received a recorded delivery letter from O2 about my claim.

I had consigned myself to writing off the £60 which I paid and just letting it all go

- so that I can move on with my life.

 

However the tone of it, and the message has caused me enough upset to consider pursuing them for damages.

 

They have ridiculed me.

 

They start of, saying that "embarrassingly" I've called them O2 rather than telfonica

(my mistake, it's not like their shops and website have O2 written at the top).

 

They have gone through again just making fun of me,

ranging from them saying I've not pointed out which section of the DPA

I'm claiming for, and then just calling me a lier.

 

If they had sent me a letter, or called me saying they are sorry I'd have let it go.

 

But now I'm wondering if I should continue my claim for damages.

 

I can prove I didn't open the accounts,

indeed I know that they have not got any evidence I did.

 

I can prove that they have lied.

Ranging from them promising to send me letter,

promising to look into this,

and even them claiming that my bank have told them it's not fraud

(I've only got 2 current accounts, and I've called them both and they both promise

that they would not disclose me information to other companies).

 

So should I let it go,

or waste hours more of my life chasing them through the courts.

 

Ultimately I cannot prove loss - and I know Durkin doesn't bind as it's scottish.

 

Any advice?

[problemswitho2]

EDIT - also 02 have amazingly got my name wrong. Apparently my middle name is now my first name... Clearly they are on the ball and know what they are doing.

[slick132]

Hi PWo2,

 

Can you hide personal data and post the letter here as a PDF. Then we can see what they've said and give opinion.

 

Although Richard Durkin's case was Scottish, I'm sure the decision would be seen as relevant as regards legal precedent in the UK.

 

[Durkin]

i'd certainly involve the CEO and reference his to the recent successful +£8k claim by Richard durkin and HFC

regarding the registering of false information.

 

Yes, that's what I'd do too.

 

Getting the defaults removed is great.

 

You can use the small claims court to get general damages as per my case. It shouldn't be too stressfull and might net you enough for a few extra accessories for your new home.

 

It seems you've already put a claim in for £1000? I can't see what'll stop them paying up.

 

If not, just ask the small claims court for general damages to be awarded at their discretion as per my case. The wrongful default is a negligent misrepresentation. Don't bother with the DPA. It's been written for lawyers, not consumers.

 

They should settle but if they don't the case has been ratified by the Supreme Court which binds all UK courts. They'll struggle to wriggle out of that.

 

Well done for standing up to the criminals. There are plenty of bad guys here in the UK, you'll have noticed.

 

You should also report them to the police for fraud and extortion. It's about time folk were jailed for all this terrorism!

 

Do what you think is right, I suppose.

 

Good luck whichever way you go. It shouldn't take long to finish now.

 

Richard.

[Durkin]

Ultimately I cannot prove loss

 

Any advice?

 

Yes, there's been some confusion about this. I couldn't prove loss either (I did actually but it's a long story) and I was still awarded general damages for the negligent misrepresentation.

 

Cheers,

 

Richard

[problemswitho2]

Yes, that's what I'd do too.

 

Getting the defaults removed is great.

 

You can use the small claims court to get general damages as per my case. It shouldn't be too stressfull and might net you enough for a few extra accessories for your new home.

 

It seems you've already put a claim in for £1000? I can't see what'll stop them paying up.

 

If not, just ask the small claims court for general damages to be awarded at their discretion as per my case. The wrongful default is a negligent misrepresentation. Don't bother with the DPA. It's been written for lawyers, not consumers.

 

They should settle but if they don't the case has been ratified by the Supreme Court which binds all UK courts. They'll struggle to wriggle out of that.

 

Well done for standing up to the criminals. There are plenty of bad guys here in the UK, you'll have noticed.

 

You should also report them to the police for fraud and extortion. It's about time folk were jailed for all this terrorism!

 

Do what you think is right, I suppose.

 

Good luck whichever way you go. It shouldn't take long to finish now.

 

Richard.

 

Thanks Richard.

 

I will post up O2's letter, with some info removed. However if anyone from O2 is looking at this they can work out who I am quite easily and I don't really care about that. I'm also a bit worried about peoples reactions - as it's been written in a way that makes me look awful even though I can cut through almost all of it and prove much of it is made up - or clever wording.

 

I've contacted the CEO TWICE now (to those saying to do this). First time, I was promised to be emailed saying they will get back to me. They never did. I called them, and they claimed they had forgotten too... They said they would look into it and get back that day. They did saying they would do nothing, but would write me a letter. The letter never arrived. Emailed CEO again saying I never got my letter - I got a call the next day from an incredibly rude women saying I needed to send all evidence NOW and they she would personally telling a judge how unhelpful I was. Said she would send the previous letter, and a letter saying what she had said again - Guess what NO LETTERS AGAIN.

 

The only letter I got was them calling me the wrong name, and being insulting. I honestly believe they are going out of their way to be dishonest, and trying to screw me over. That might sound heavy - but I honestly cannot believe that they would be so incompetent.

 

BUT - two DCA's wrote these accounts off, with nearly no fight. This was after they looked into it... Does that not seem strange to you? My research into this, says that they are not prone to rolling over like that. I feel that they saw something that they know was wrong. I feel that they know what is happening is wrong.

 

I'm more than happy to keep this going. Basically my case is simpler than yours. I just want a nice life... I've not lost as much as you. However I wouldn't treat anyone like O2 have. I wouldn't act in such a manner. And ultimately if O2 can do this to me (youngish, fairly informed professional with some education) - what chance would an elderly person, or someone with special needs stand? I don't expect to change the world, but I don't mind taking a chunk out of the system.

[problemswitho2]

EDIT This is the PDF version of the 4 page letter O2 have sent me. Please ask any questions or give any views you have.

[dx100uk]

merged and reduced

 

dx

[Durkin]

Hi,

 

It seems a fairly standard defence. Nothing too much to worry about. Lawyers are lawyers. They hide behind waffle. Best not to feed them.

 

I can't help you with the DPA. I'd have avoided that. Too complicated.

 

Try altering your claim to general damages for the negligent misrepresentations that were the defaults. No proof required for that. Much easier. You just need to say the credit accounts weren't yours, which you've done.

 

They then need to prove that they are yours, otherwise they are liable. It sounds like they may struggle with that!

 

If you do decide to proceed, don't insist on £1000. Ask the court to determine the level of damages as per my case. (Durkin v HFC) You might be surprised how much you'll get! (Unless they settle).

 

Have fun. Don't let this stress you out. There's a recent Supreme Court ruling backing you all the way.

 

If, at any point, you do feel stressed (that will be their primary tactic now that they've lodged a defence), they'll probably be happy for both sides to walk away as it'll cost them less. Stress definitely isn't worth it but I guess you're already well aware of that.

 

Consider a twitter rant too...

 

Good Luck.

 

Richard.

[steampowered]

They seem to be alleging that you must have known about the accounts because monthly statements were sent to your address since 2011. Proving that the accounts weren't yours will be key to this.

 

I think you should submit a CPR 31.14 request asking for a copy of the monthly statements mentioned in their Defence - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?159445-Getting-Them-To-Reveal-Their-Vitals.-Using-CPR-31.14-to-Your-Advantage. I bet they can't. They should be put to proof of the claims they are making in the Defence.

[determindator]

They seem to be alleging that you must have known about the accounts because monthly statements were sent to your address since 2011. Proving that the accounts weren't yours will be key to this.

 

I think you should submit a CPR 31.14 request asking for a copy of the monthly statements mentioned in their Defence - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?159445-Getting-Them-To-Reveal-Their-Vitals.-Using-CPR-31.14-to-Your-Advantage. I bet they can't. They should be put to proof of the claims they are making in the Defence.

 

I agree, and all the best Probswith02. These phone companies are causing havoc with peoples' credit files, especially if you are trying to find a mortgage.

[problemswitho2]

Hi,

 

It seems a fairly standard defence. Nothing too much to worry about. Lawyers are lawyers. They hide behind waffle. Best not to feed them.

 

I can't help you with the DPA. I'd have avoided that. Too complicated.

 

Try altering your claim to general damages for the negligent misrepresentations that were the defaults. No proof required for that. Much easier. You just need to say the credit accounts weren't yours, which you've done.

 

They then need to prove that they are yours, otherwise they are liable. It sounds like they may struggle with that!

 

If you do decide to proceed, don't insist on £1000. Ask the court to determine the level of damages as per my case. (Durkin v HFC) You might be surprised how much you'll get! (Unless they settle).

 

Have fun. Don't let this stress you out. There's a recent Supreme Court ruling backing you all the way.

 

If, at any point, you do feel stressed (that will be their primary tactic now that they've lodged a defence), they'll probably be happy for both sides to walk away as it'll cost them less. Stress definitely isn't worth it but I guess you're already well aware of that.

 

Consider a twitter rant too...

 

Good Luck.

 

Richard.

 

Do you know how I alter the claim? I agree in hindsight that the DPA is a bit of a mess, and wasn't really designed for this situation.

 

Again - do I have to submit and forms to claim general damages? I specified £1k as at the time I wanted to get the defaults removed without costing me a fortune in fees. I sort of chickened out at the £1k but it seems that if I am going to persue this, I may as well go for it properly.

 

The interesting point about it costing them less... They have already instructed http://exchangechambers.co.uk/barristers/gareth-shires . Since they are paying a barrister to look at this and send letters... Well lets just say it tells me they are in some way worried. Surely they employ in house lawyers to deal with this stuff, atleast before it gets to court. It seems mad that if they are instructing barristers, they don't just settle. Guess they want to fight this one out.

[problemswitho2]

They seem to be alleging that you must have known about the accounts because monthly statements were sent to your address since 2011. Proving that the accounts weren't yours will be key to this.

 

I think you should submit a CPR 31.14 request asking for a copy of the monthly statements mentioned in their Defence - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?159445-Getting-Them-To-Reveal-Their-Vitals.-Using-CPR-31.14-to-Your-Advantage. I bet they can't. They should be put to proof of the claims they are making in the Defence.

 

They are actually alleging statements were sent UNTIL 2011. Basically I didn't live at the address in question. I can prove that using all sorts of information, including the electoral roll! I have a recording from them saying "it looks like someone you may know opened the accounts, this isn't the type of fraud we are interested in". I'm not really sure what there argument is... They certainly are not acknowledging there failure to do anything once I did let them know...

 

There are a few points which I cant prove are wrong in their statement. They claim they emailed me... Complete lie. My email account keeps all emails... And I've searched and there is not one! Infact at the time I primarily used a work email account - my belief is that they are just making stuff up.

 

If I were to do a SAR asking for everything, it might be easier. However so far they have not sent stuff they have promised... And have clearly made stuff up. So I believe that they will just remove anything that doesn't help them. And will even add stuff... I honestly believe that they are acting in a criminal way. This isn't a company making a mistake and following their rules - they are lying and being actively dishonest.

[problemswitho2]

I agree, and all the best Probswith02. These phone companies are causing havoc with peoples' credit files, especially if you are trying to find a mortgage.

 

I have no objection to them properly issuing defaults. I do have a problem with them giving them to people who have clearly said it's not right. The OFT guidelines say if in doubt let the county court test the evidence before ruining peoples lives. Let's just say - when one of the DCA's tried they ran off quickly when I presented information. I think O2 know this is dodgy - and for some reason they are not willing to sort it out.

[SabreSheep]

There is something amiss here, I cannot see why they are pursuing this.

 

They admitted to you that it was a fraudulent account. I cannot help it But I feel there has been something happening behind the scenes that they seem very interested in keep covered up.

 

Im beginning to wonder if their team at store level and above has acted inappropriately and they do not want it to come come out as it might cause the brand extreme damage. There MUST be something other than your £1000 at stake for them.

[problemswitho2]

There is something amiss here, I cannot see why they are pursuing this.

 

They admitted to you that it was a fraudulent account. I cannot help it But I feel there has been something happening behind the scenes that they seem very interested in keep covered up.

 

Im beginning to wonder if their team at store level and above has acted inappropriately and they do not want it to come come out as it might cause the brand extreme damage. There MUST be something other than your £1000 at stake for them.

 

As I've said something is up - they won't send any letters stating their position (that was the first one I've had). They say they will send something and then don't... Okay - letters can go amiss but multiple copies? They refuse to put stuff in writing (recorded) and then say they will and refuse. They don't want to sort this out.

 

They told me in 2013 they are still looking into it... I have the screen shot proving that... Asked on their online facility. They just said "you shouldn't have been told that". Wouldn't say anything more. Either someone was completely making it up - OR they were looking into something, and they didn't want me to know that.

 

The DCA's dropped out very very quickly. As in they sent for information to O2 and then both dropped out as soon as they had a response. Now they won't tell me what O2 said.. Apart from O2 claiming "they don't have records due to age". They have something because they have stated it in that letter. Infact they did say that O2 were "going around in circles".

 

They have gone straight to a barrister. No in house solicitor dealing with it.

 

I truly and honestly believe that something is a miss. I don't know what is it... But I do know that not only did I not take those phones out, but that I couldn't have taken two of them. One of them I was living 200 miles from the address they were registered too - the other two I was in a different country with no access to the internet or phones for most of the time.

 

I'm just thinking for the sake of £1k - would you not just apologise and offer £500 or even less to make it go away? They no longer have a financial stake in this matter, they sold the accounts. This is only going to cost them money - unless they get awarded costs...

 

Overall - I'm just confused. I never originally asked for money. I just asked for them to sort it. They refused at all points. They wouldn't even look at it... They told me they were not interested in this. They refused to put things into writing. They then said they would once i wrote to the CEO but never did.

 

My attitude now is simple. I'll run this to court. I'm going to put in a SAR - and I'm going to see if I can change the situation as Richard above has said. It's not about the money - it's about the principle.

[Mike_hawk]

Were payments drawn down from your banking account as stated?

[SabreSheep]

Another question. Before these disputed contracts did You have any other contracts with o2 or subsiduries?

[problemswitho2]

Were payments drawn down from your banking account as stated?

 

Not that I am aware off. I'd say 90% chance no. Basically - I had a couple of credit cards and isa's etc... I'm not sure if it's possible to take payment from those sort of accounts. But certainly not out of my current account. I'd have noticed that.

 

I've asked what banks the money came out - and they won't tell me.

[problemswitho2]

Another question. Before these disputed contracts did You have any other contracts with o2 or subsiduries?

 

No. I've only ever had an account with vodafone.

 

However I do know that they are lying. Basically they said on the phone that one of the phones was brought from carphone warehouse... For 3 months I worked for carphone warehouse when I left the forces and needed a job badly. We used a system call pie. Obviously I looked myself up (before I knew this might I add). Basically the system saves literally everything. So I know that there is no way that the phone was taken out via carphone warehouse. I even asked for the storecode - as I still know people who work for them. Guess what - they wouldn't tell me. The only thing under my "lead" was a charger I had brought and stuff like that. There were no phones brought from the carphone warehouse under my name... Literally could not and did not happen. It's not even possible to remove the information - even if a phone is removed. Once it goes into pie it is there forever.

 

I also know about how contracts are set up because of that job. This is probably more about your previous question - but lets just say that it's more than possible to link an account to another persons bank, the bank for direct debit account isn't even checked when a phone is taken out. Infact there are ways around the credit checks... You should need a debit/credit card for identification. However again there is a long winded way around that. Put it this way - if you wanted to open a phone account in someone elses name it wouldn't be hard to do. Infact once it happened at my store by accident... Someone opened a phone account in their dads name, as the D.O.B was not checked... All of the internal safety checks failed.

[steampowered]

I suggest you also issue a CPR 31.14 request as per the template linked for any documents mentioned in the Defence (i.e. the email they mention and the statements), mentioning in your letter that you have never seen any of those documents.

 

CPR 31.14 is a useful tactical device, as if they do not produce the documents it will damage their credibility in court. Unlike a SAR it will be dealt with by a litigation team and the time for compliance is shorter than the time for compliance with a SAR (7 days vs. 40 days).

[Peterbard]

They are right I am afraid in that there is no prospect f you being able to claim general damages in this(unless they settle) there is no precedent far any such award, with due respect to Richard his claim was in a Scottish court and it was not an award of the court anyway, it was an uncontested claim, the decision has been mentioned in several lower court claims on this forum alone and in each case discounted as being irrelevant(again with all due respect).

 

You need to quantify actual damages, or at least state how damages would have been incurred, perhaps you had a clear record other than these entrees or some other factor.

 

See Haliday and Smeaton Vs equafax for more relevant case law.

 

The DPA does not allow any claim for general damages.