ATOS appeals: GP's charging £130

[Michael Browne]

GPs charge disabled up to £130 to appeal fitness-to-work decisions

 

 

 

Doctors are charging sick and disabled people up to £130 for medical evidence to appeal decisions about their fitness to work, The Independent has learnt.

 

NHS GPs are telling patients they will only provide the necessary details to challenge controversial Work Capability Assessments if they pay. Others are refusing to help at all.

 

Citizens Advice say in many areas GPs are helping with an appeal only if patients pay a fee of between £25 and £130. There are also reports from 15 of its centres that family surgeries are refusing to provide evidence at all.

 

GPs who refuse to help – or charge increasingly high fees – argue that writing up medical evidence takes up time when they could be helping patients.

 

But Gillian Guy, chief executive of Citizens Advice, said: “Charging sick and disabled people more than £100 for medical evidence beggars belief. This process is clearly failing.”

 

A lack of evidence from doctors will make it more difficult for people to navigate what experts say is an already “flawed” system. The Work Capability Assessment, which is currently conducted by the private company Atos Healthcare for the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP), has already been beset by criticism.

 

More than 600,000 of the 1.8 million assessments carried out by Atos since 2009 have been the subject of an appeal, at a cost of £60m. Around a third of the appeals succeeded.

 

After an investigation by the DWP, which found that two in five of Atos’s written reports were not fit for purpose, the company will no longer have a monopoly to carry out the assessments.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/gps-charge-disabled-up-to-130-to-appeal-fitnesstowork-decisions-8785041.html

[claire1981]

That seems about right- rationing of GP services aimed at the weakest who have less chance of defending them self.

 

My GP is a family practice & I can't even pay for evidence. Though it's a bit cheeky to claim that it's stopping them dealing with real problems. In my experience they try to evade dealing with difficult problems wherever possible & just hand out the label depression.

[45002]

What GPs can charge for non NHS work is set out on the BMA website !

 

http://bma.org.uk/practical-support-at-work/pay-fees-allowances/fees/why-gps-sometimes-charge-fees

 

c) written report without exam, with detailed opinion and statement on condition of patient (eg 30 minutes)

£124.50

Edited August 27, 2013 by 45002

[claire1981]

The real question is why is this being tolerated.

 

Requesting proof of own condition is not technically 'non NHS work' as in this case it's only being requested by the patient on behalf of a government department, solely for pursuit of state benefit. Benefit is equal to necessary medical resources required to keep a severely disabled person alive, it provides primary care & without it many would die! So it's merely an extension of NHS care! Technically that should make medical reports part of a persons welfare entitlement- I don't see how they are getting away with this! It's only if the person was well, that requesting medical proof from GP would yield nothing- so those truly ill will always be left with a charge if having to pay! This is totally illogical!

 

Lets just assume that the person claiming is from a very poor family & is having to pay rent to their parent. Their parent has been working all their life for peanuts & is also dirt poor. They have not a penny to pay for anything non-essential such as a report for some maverick agency! That person is then unable to buy their freedom from being shackled into service, despite the fact that they may be even more ill than the person who could afford to buy their freedom!

[osdset]

A secret plan to sell confidential medical records to private companies for as little as £1 has been drawn up by officials.

 

From next month, GPs will start sending detailed NHS patient records to a central database for the first time under the new General Practice Extraction Service (GPES).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396362/Your-confidential-medical-records-sale--just-1-Hunt-insists-plan-sell-details-private-firms-vital-combat-epidemics--critics-fear-unprecedented-privacy-threat.html

Double standards? GP's aren't bothered about the workload under these circumstances, what's the difference?

[mr_mastiff]

Please do not cast stones at all G.P,s. Mine could not have been more helpful, I know a number of people who she as helped in her own time and without payment.

[dpick]

I agree with the above it's not all GP's that are charging these outrageous amounts of money. I would say that the GP's who do not charge do not hit the headlines. My GP does not charge for reports, medical evidence for the DVLA for my driving licence, DLA etc. Of course the press wont be interested in doctors that treat there patient's as human beings not numbers.

 

dpick

[claire1981]

I agree with the above it's not all GP's that are charging these outrageous amounts of money. I would say that the GP's who do not charge do not hit the headlines. My GP does not charge for reports, medical evidence for the DVLA for my driving licence, DLA etc. Of course the press wont be interested in doctors that treat there patient's as human beings not numbers.

 

dpick

 

 

I have no doubt that a few GPs will treat a few patients like human beings- those are the odds of probability. But on the whole GPs are only people & will act like the vast majority of the brainwashed bigoted population. The majority of the population seem to be brainwashed by the press to see most of those claiming benefits as capable of some work if they tried. Consequently GPs don't trust patients to know their own health, GPs think that they know better. Even though GPs may have only seen you for a total of 30 minutes of your whole life! Because they will only give you a 10 minute appointment (5 if they are running late). So in six months you could end up going to six 5 minute appointments- in total you have only seen the GP for a pathetic 30 minutes & they think that you should be grateful for that. It's like an interview & if you can't convince them in those 30 minutes that you are ill- then forget it- they'll tell you that you're fine! They will even think that they are helping you by making you work. As they have been brainwashed to believe that work is good for people & helps their mental health!

Edited August 27, 2013 by claire1981

[fightingback99]

I have no doubt that a few GPs will treat a few patients like human beings- those are the odds of probability. But on the whole GPs are only people & will act like the vast majority of the brainwashed bigoted population. The majority of the population seem to be brainwashed by the press to see most of those claiming benefits as capable of some work if they tried. Consequently GPs don't trust patients to know their own health, GPs think that they know better. Even though GPs may have only seen you for a total of 30 minutes of your whole life! Because they will only give you a 10 minute appointment (5 if they are running late). So in six months you could end up going to six 5 minute appointments- in total you have only seen the GP for a pathetic 30 minutes & they think that you should be grateful for that. It's like an interview & if you can't convince them in those 30 minutes that you are ill- then forget it- they'll tell you that you're fine! They will even think that they are helping you by making you work. As they have been brainwashed to believe that work is good for people & helps their mental health!

 

 

In your opinion that is. which is fine and you are fully entitled to have it. But personal opinions aren't facts .Many will disagree with your opinion, and I'm one of them.The NHS may have many problems but GP's and consultants being brainwashed - somehow i don't think so. Again just an opinion.

[claire1981]

In your opinion that is. which is fine and you are fully entitled to have it. But personal opinions aren't facts .Many will disagree with your opinion, and I'm one of them.The NHS may have many problems but GP's and consultants being brainwashed - somehow i don't think so. Again just an opinion.

 

Well what do you think GP & ATOS opinions are! They are only personal opinions too!

 

I know to my cost that GPs are generally asked to give personal opinions only. My GP even copied another professionals entire personal opinion (health visitors) in the absence of not even bothering to write her own & this was not even seen as a problem by investigators. Unfortunately for her the opinion was clearly biased against single mothers & contained extreme bigoted opinions regarding mental heath conditions. Social worker who was also bigoted & didn't agree with what she called my 'lifestyle choices' ie deliberately having a child via anonymous at home sperm donation & not planning to work- due to being disabled. This council employees personal opinions & constant unnecessary visits harassing/bullying me- ended up costing council £5,000 in compensation & a grovelling apology! But it did take 5 years of fighting to get to that point- so no wonder no one bothers to complain!

 

NHS guidelines are always dictated by majority economy need above that of individual people! The priority is always like army battle field- patch them up & ship them off for battle- spend whatever is needed to patch them up so they can fight. If they are considered un-salvageable or an unnecessary drain on resources, quietly get rid of them as cheaply as possible. There are many examples of this but I can't go into them for fear of upsetting some people, but let's just say a typical example involves unborn babies & keeping women available for work/off benefits. Such things so reminiscent of hitlers binning of those considered a drain & worshiping of those considered most immediately valuable to society that it's scary.

Edited August 28, 2013 by claire1981

[antone]

Claire...

 

We are trying to discuss a very limited and specific matter here: what (if anything) should GPs charge for providing assistance to those who wish to appeal a benefit decision.

 

Now, if your GP turns out to have exterminated Jews, or if he has invaded Poland or the Sudetenland, we could have a problem. But until then, could we leave the Nazi comparisons in the smelly rubbish bin where they belong? I'm really hoping I don't have to say this twice.

[claire1981]

Claire...

 

We are trying to discuss a very limited and specific matter here: what (if anything) should GPs charge for providing assistance to those who wish to appeal a benefit decision.

 

Now, if your GP turns out to have exterminated Jews, or if he has invaded Poland or the Sudetenland, we could have a problem. But until then, could we leave the Nazi comparisons in the smelly rubbish bin where they belong? I'm really hoping I don't have to say this twice.

 

 

If it saved them money to kill certain religions off, I'm sure they would. Press are already doing a good job of trying to kill off religion in UK, as apparently religion is seen as a high risk factor for conflict- which slows down productivity! I'm agnostic, which itself is often wrongfully labeled atheist. But my disability is seen as slowing down productivity & that's why I'm a target! They may not kill disabled by their own hand, but many doctors must be fully aware that in a society that's actively encouraged to approve of suicide/killing for social reasons- that GPs turning their back on disabled is the same as killing by their own hand- for economic gain!

Edited August 28, 2013 by claire1981

[antone]

If it saved them money to kill certain religions off, I'm sure they would. Press are already doing a good job of trying to kill off religion in UK, as apparently religion is seen as a high risk factor for conflict- which slows down productivity! I'm agnostic, which itself is often wrongfully labeled atheist. But my disability is seen as slowing down productivity & that's why I'm a target! They may not kill disabled by their own hand, but many doctors must be fully aware that in a society that's actively encouraged to approve of suicide/killing for social reasons- that GPs turning their back on disabled is the same as killing by their own hand- for economic gain!

 

Yeah, OK, whatever, but can we get back to the topic at hand?

 

Seriously, I'm sorry about your health issues - I thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster every day for the fact that I can at least function in society. If you wish to discuss your idea that GPs are trying to kill people, please have that conversation with a mental health professional - we are not qualified to help.

 

In the meantime, this thread is about something else, and these interruptions are unwelcome.

[claire1981]

Yeah, OK, whatever, but can we get back to the topic at hand?

 

Seriously, I'm sorry about your health issues - I thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster every day for the fact that I can at least function in society. If you wish to discuss your idea that GPs are trying to kill people, please have that conversation with a mental health professional - we are not qualified to help.

 

In the meantime, this thread is about something else, and these interruptions are unwelcome.

 

I have informed GP of my views thank you! Their response was to neither to confirm or deny it as their modus operandi!

 

But as a consumer directly affected by this topic of whether GPs should charge- it's nice to know my views are not welcome & dismissed as incoherent babel.

[osdset]

My GP operates from a medical centre, she informs me that it's the practice manager that sets the level of fees for letters, passport applications etc. All fees have to be paid in cash which I find odd, Christmas box? (Yes, I do have a suspicious mind), because if the DWP for instance request med records they also have to pay a fee and I guarantee it isn't paid in cash. However I digress.

 

Fees aside, consideration has to be given to how much weight med records/support letters really carry with ATOS? Is the evidence really considered at all? If someone takes a huge bundle of supporting evidence on the day of the WCA I doubt the HCP is going to wade through it all whilst the claimant sits there twiddling their thumbs (if they have any to twiddle).

 

If the supporting evidence is supplied in advance does anyone actually read any of it? We don't know. What we do know is there is evidence that claimants with conditions/disabilities that meet the descriptors are routinely failing the WCA.

 

With the controversy that surrounds the WCA one would think that in the interests of fairness the government would step in and state that med records will be requested officially in advance with the claimants permission, if the claimant wants to supplement that with a GP's letter of support then they pay for it.

[Nystagmite]

I've never been charged, (apart from when I wanted some medical records) and was told by the GP receptionist that it's down to the GP.

 

There was a hospital I used to attend when I lived in London. When I had an appointment, they'd send out a letter (the same sent to my GP) to me explaining what was discussed / happened in the appointment.

[cfs_too]

Hi,

 

I am slightly off track of the main reason for this post (GP's charging to write documents), an alternative which have have done several times over the past few years is to access a copy of your medical records under the Data Protection Act 1998. Whilst this doesn't give a 'supporting letter' as such, there are often notes as well as the medical evidence (test results, consultant appointments etc) all stored and easily available for you to attain a copy.

 

Again this isn't free to access, last time it cost me £30 for 2 years of notes (tests, list of appointments, and consultant letters etc.), it was about 50 pages. £30 might seem a lot, but as I knew ATOS had no intention of contacting my GP I enclosed copies of these with my ESA50 in case in needed to go to appeal/tribunal. I believe the maximum a surgery can charge for copies of medical evidence is £50.

 

I can hear some of you shreeking uo to £50!!! but it can help as if there is enough 'evidence' presented this can later prove their decision is flawed.

The other benefit is also to provide evidence which may be missed by the GP when writing reports. If (like me) there are 'in excess of average' notes the GP may miss one or two points which may make the difference to any ATOS decision (yes, I know a small chance but it may be there).

 

In the long term this may also bring the cost down for an appeal letter if required, as the GP doesn't have to take as much time to compile a supporting letter and track through so many notes.

 

Back to the OP's point, I too agree that GP's writing a supporting letter and charging a lot is wrong, and it all depends on locations and your own surgerys policies. I hope my comments show that there may be alternative ways to avoid the high costs and yet attain the same evidence for your supporting evidence.

 

Me_too

[45002]

Please do not cast stones at all G.P,s. Mine could not have been more helpful, I know a number of people who she as helped in her own time and without payment.

 

I agree with the above comments.

 

It's nothing new about GPs charging for Non NHS work,I suspect the report in that newspaper report they only looked at the GP's who do charge and have not even looked at GP's who do not charge !

 

And it's not compulsory for GP's to provide medical reports for those who ask for one when appealing against a DWP decisions not to award ESA to someone who has been on IB for many years.

 

I suspect that GP's who are refusing to write a report for appeals is because there is little if nothing medical wrong with the person in the 1st place and should be on JSA and Not ESA.

Edited August 28, 2013 by 45002

[Past caring]

We asked a doctor at our practice for a screen print which she refused to do, directing us to reception who would be pleased to handle a request if money exchanged hands. We also asked our GP to sign a form agreeing my husband had a said medical condition which gave us reduced water bills - the GP asked for £25 which I said I couldnt afford. She then said she would not agree to my husbands condition needing excess water (although she agreed he does have the condition stated). Im damned sure if I had paid the fee she would have agreed to it.

 

The last GP we saw didnt even know what ESA was - how are these people meant to be in a position to help us when they are so removed from normal life?

[osdset]

I suspect that GP's who are refusing to write a report for appeals is because there is little if nothing medical wrong with the person in the 1st place and should be on JSA and Not ESA.

 

If that was the case the GP would not have been providing med3's for the claimant to receive ESA at the assessment stage.

[45002]

I agree with the above comments.

 

It's nothing new about GPs charging for Non NHS work,I suspect the report in that newspaper report they only looked at the GP's who do charge and have not even looked at GP's who do not charge !

 

And it's not compulsory for GP's to provide medical reports for those who ask for one when appealing against a DWP decisions not to award ESA to someone who has been on IB for many years.

 

I suspect that GP's who are refusing to write a report for appeals is because there is little if nothing medical wrong with the person in the 1st place and should be on JSA and Not ESA.

 

 

If that was the case the GP would not have been providing med3's for the claimant to receive ESA at the assessment stage.

 

Hello osdset.

 

I was Not referring to new claims for ESA.

 

I was referring to those who have been on Incapacity Benefit "IB" and moving over to ESA which I said in my post #18.

 

Nearly half "maybe more" of those people who where on long term IB where wrote to and told Not to send sick "med 3" notes in any more during the last government,this is why everyone on IB is been reassessed for ESA.

 

It is estimated at least out of all the people on IB,how many millions was it ?

 

3rd of people would move from IB to ESA SG

 

3rd of people would move from IB to ESA WRAG

 

and the rest would not qualify for ESA at all and ever appeal,claim JSA or find work.

 

It is the last group I was referring too !

Edited August 28, 2013 by 45002

[claire1981]

 

I suspect that GP's who are refusing to write a report for appeals is because there is little if nothing medical wrong with the person in the 1st place and should be on JSA and Not ESA.

 

 

It would seem more likely down to the fact that GPs are just that, mostly specialists in the field of a little bit of everything- but nothing special. Therefore often they simply don't have the specialist knowledge/skills to spot what may be wrong. In such cases many seem to go with the safest bet- mental health problem. Then they just wait to see if that throws up anything else. I suspect a GP would feel much more comfortable neglecting to mention a condition that they aren't 100% sure a person has, rather than state the person has it & later be credited with a wrong diagnosis.

 

To meet the criteria for many conditions, it can take many months of observation/evidence gathered by a specialist. Often the GP simply doesn't have the power to diagnose a condition, even if they may be 100% sure a person has it. So a GP often wants to be very sure, otherwise it's a huge waste of resources. I really feel that some GPs think it more cost effective to simply ignore some problems & hope they go away or present with much stronger evidence (even though sometimes this is impossible).

 

I have applied for my medical records & always got charged at every surgery between £10-£50. It was not based on how much paperwork their was, but seemed to be based on how much they thought I was prepared to pay. I know for a fact that I was charged by a particular surgery, yet other patients making same request were not! They said it was up to the practice manager, she had decided that I was not to be given certain data due to the data protection act- which meant more time had to be spent on my request! I had requested the data to prove my conditions & as proof of the surgeries past incompetence/slander- in effect they had charged me for time they spent covering up their own incompetence!

Edited August 28, 2013 by claire1981

[speedfreek]

Hi,

 

I am slightly off track of the main reason for this post (GP's charging to write documents), an alternative which have have done several times over the past few years is to access a copy of your medical records under the Data Protection Act 1998. Whilst this doesn't give a 'supporting letter' as such, there are often notes as well as the medical evidence (test results, consultant appointments etc) all stored and easily available for you to attain a copy.

 

there's a rather good guide to obtaining and maintaining your NHS records in the NHS sub forum sticky section *cough*

 

Your bang on tbf. This is an absolute non story which is trotted out 2-3 times a year for various indignation, uproar and shock factors.

 

£10 for computerised (upto £50 for non) it costs for any NHS record. These come with the added advantage that you can pick n choose what exactly you want to present with the relative safety that ATOS/DWP will never ask for them so will never know what they are missing.

 

Lord Fraud said it's a simple benefit where by we do not need these pesky letters.

 

Also for most a GP will have minimal meaningful contact with a patient so......

 

Most if not all letters from them will be absolutely useless. Sometimes they'll be so wrong to be detrimental to your case.

 

2 years ago the DWP sent my then GP a form asking various questions for DLA - every answer is........

 

"I do not know."

 

Brilliant

 

Except for a DS1500 (? - terminal illness) request expect absolute gibbins, tish n piffle tbf.

 

The DWP contract with GPs is £35 (I can look this up on my copy of my patient record if you like)

 

My then surgery charged the local advice center under the legal aid contract (Surgery and Advice Center were actually in partnership together as the advice center gave weekly briefing to the surgery on benefits etc) £89 for my patient records.

 

It cost me £10 for them when I requested.

 

Plus remember this ain't Kansas - GP's are very busy, work long hours and are extremely over worked given the fact that they have life n death decisions to make.

 

They have a 10 minute slot for an appointment.

 

How long do you think it would take then to fully review your records (some will have to be retrieved from paper filling) then write up a comprehensive and full report on that within the various benefit criteria that exist?

 

Which would you rather have GP learning new diagnostics and medical guidance to save multiple lives or how to correctly format and write a letter to the DWP?

 

I look forward to your comments 45002 on how my GP who has spent 40 minutes with me knows more about me than my counselor with more than 60 weeks of 50 minute contact with me might be valid?

 

It took me 6 months to convince her to contact my private councilor as the NHS is full of wrong assumptions!

[45002]

there's a rather good guide to obtaining and maintaining your NHS records in the NHS sub forum sticky section *cough*

 

Your bang on tbf. This is an absolute non story which is trotted out 2-3 times a year for various indignation, uproar and shock factors.

 

£10 for computerised (upto £50 for non) it costs for any NHS record. These come with the added advantage that you can pick n choose what exactly you want to present with the relative safety that ATOS/DWP will never ask for them so will never know what they are missing.

 

Lord Fraud said it's a simple benefit where by we do not need these pesky letters.

 

Also for most a GP will have minimal meaningful contact with a patient so......

 

Most if not all letters from them will be absolutely useless. Sometimes they'll be so wrong to be detrimental to your case.

 

2 years ago the DWP sent my then GP a form asking various questions for DLA - every answer is........

 

"I do not know."

 

Brilliant

 

Except for a DS1500 (? - terminal illness) request expect absolute gibbins, tish n piffle tbf.

 

The DWP contract with GPs is £35 (I can look this up on my copy of my patient record if you like)

 

My then surgery charged the local advice center under the legal aid contract (Surgery and Advice Center were actually in partnership together as the advice center gave weekly briefing to the surgery on benefits etc) £89 for my patient records.

 

It cost me £10 for them when I requested.

 

Plus remember this ain't Kansas - GP's are very busy, work long hours and are extremely over worked given the fact that they have life n death decisions to make.

 

They have a 10 minute slot for an appointment.

 

How long do you think it would take then to fully review your records (some will have to be retrieved from paper filling) then write up a comprehensive and full report on that within the various benefit criteria that exist?

 

Which would you rather have GP learning new diagnostics and medical guidance to save multiple lives or how to correctly format and write a letter to the DWP?

 

I look forward to your comments 45002 on how my GP who has spent 40 minutes with me knows more about me than my counselor with more than 60 weeks of 50 minute contact with me might be valid?

 

It took me 6 months to convince her to contact my private councilor as the NHS is full of wrong assumptions!

 

 

So what the bloody hell do you want me to comment on !

[claire1981]

I once spent £50 obtaining GP medical records. Of which the surgery had blacked out many parts of them, allegedly in accordance with data protection act. Much of the info I needed had been blacked out. I sent it off anyway & was refused the benefit. I then went to tribunal, at which they got me to attend only to say they simply wanted my permission to have access to the blacked out data- as if I'd done it on purpose! I gave them permission, but was never given access to the data! The only positive was that I was awarded the benefit, though at a lower rate than requested!