Blue Badges - further thoughts.

[peanutsallergy]

Following on from a few threads on MSE, and Pepipoo, where one poster has been very keen for posters to start claims against PPC's using the Equality Act, if they use a requirement to display a blue badge.

 

The argument has been the Equality Act applies to motorists, and "reasonable adjustment" should be made, and very little if any proof is required of any disability, let alone a blue badge, so the PPC is acting unlawfully to the Act.

 

The Equality Act obviously does apply, but another poster asked the question, why can the council insist on a blue badge, if no-one else can, as the Equality Act applies to them in the same way.

Are they also acting unlawfully?

The MSE/Pepipoo poster hasn't made their views known on this one, so the other poster has questioned ref the Congestion Charge, and Westminster Council directly about it.

 

To quote

 

"I have a War Disability Pension which proves the point of my being disabled, so would a ticket for use of a disabled bay on the high street without displaying a blue badge be classed as discriminatory, or is it the case that an appeal based on an actual disability without having a badge be likely to win an appeal?"

 

And the answer

 

"Thank you for contacting Westminster City Council regarding disabled parking.

 

I understand from your email that you do not currently hold a Blue Badge but believe you are entitled to the same benefits when parking on street. While I appreciate your opinion on this matter, I would advise that this is not the case. In order to gain the concessions available for disabled drivers a Blue Badge must be displayed in the vehicle.

 

You have referred me to section 6 of the Equality Act 2010, which defines a disabled person but does not make provisions for their rights to parking concessions.

 

As a disabled person you have the right to apply for and hold a Blue Badge, local authorities will not be required to grant you parking concessions if you choose not to exercise that right."

 

As the poster commented

 

"So as far they're concerned only a blue badge holder can be disabled????? "

 

 

Who's right then?

 

The councils, and what's to stop PPCs using the same defence, or are all the councils breaking the Equality Act?

 

I know the blue badge scheme applied to councils, but it cannot give them any right to break the law, ie the Equality Act, or if they're not, why can't PPC's use the same get out. The Equality Act applied equally to all here.

 

I wonder if we'll be seeing lba to councils for discrimination?

 

One to watch I think.

 

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=78206&pid=811127&st=140entry811127

[renegadeimp]

Blue badges on private land have no meaning whatsoever. They only have meaning on local Authority owned or managed land.

 

The council ar eperfectly within their rights to demand that the vehicle show a blue badge if parked in a disabled bay. There might be 100 different things in the window stating the owner is disabled, but that badge is what they are looking for.

[peanutsallergy]

Blue badges on private land have no meaning whatsoever. They only have meaning on local Authority owned or managed land.

 

The council ar eperfectly within their rights to demand that the vehicle show a blue badge if parked in a disabled bay. There might be 100 different things in the window stating the owner is disabled, but that badge is what they are looking for.

 

As I asked, and as asked on Pepipoo,

why is the council "perfectly within their rights" to completely ignore the Equality Act here?

It most certainly applies to them.

How do they have the right to decide only blue badge holders are disabled?

[renegadeimp]

It does apply yes. However, you would have to take it to court as a test case, and be ready for the huge costs involved if you lose.

 

With your last question, THEY dont decide. It's the only reasonable way to check. The council, as they stated will give out a badge to anyone who can show they are disabled enough to meet the requirements of the badge. If the disabled person wont apply for one, thats not the councils fault. They cant adopt a policy where they check everyone individually. Due to the numbers involved, they have to do a blanket rule.

[peanutsallergy]

"It's the only reasonable way to check."

 

Don't know about that line.

Seems you just wrote out the defence for the PPCs there if you're not careful.

[renegadeimp]

If you disagree, you need to put forward your reasonings. No council officer/traffic warden will go around and detail check every single car in the bays. It's too time consuming. Thats why the council give out blue badges. Simply display one of them in the window and the warden walks straight past.

 

Now, if you think the council's description of a disability is wrong, then you need to contact your council and your local MP and see why it is how it is.

[peanutsallergy]

It's not for me to agree or disagree, if a PPC use a councils description of a disability, or the argument you've given for them to insist on a blue badge.

 

I thought it was an interesting, well thought out proposal the poster on pepipoo made why they shouldn't have to display a blue badge if the law applies equally to all

Just as interested in why you believe councils are right to insist on them to prove you're disabled.

[lamma]

"So as far they're concerned only a blue badge holder can be disabled????? " Who's right then? Faulty logic.

[peanutsallergy]

"So as far they're concerned only a blue badge holder can be disabled????? " Who's right then? Faulty logic.

 

??

[renegadeimp]

??

 

He is quoting a post you referenced in your OP.

[johnjordan]

You need a driving licence to prove you are entitled to drive.

You need a bus pass to prove you are entitled to free bus travel

You need a passport to prove you are entitled to travel abroad

You need a blue badge to prove you are entitled to park in disabled spaces.

 

 

What's the problem?

[queensclose]

you can be disabled and not be entitled to a blue badge. only higher rate disability are automatically entitled to a blue badge. the rest are case by case basis.

[green_and_mean]

you can be disabled and not be entitled to a blue badge. only higher rate disability are automatically entitled to a blue badge. the rest are case by case basis.

 

Being deaf is a disability but why should a deaf person get parking concessions? The blue badge scheme meets the Equalities act because reasonable steps have been taken by introducing a badge scheme to allow those with mobility problems to park. The are plenty of disabilities that do not require help with parking. If a PPC just said disabled parking rather than blue badge holders in its terms and conditions it could end up with wheelchair users places being used by someone with HIV or dyslexia that could walk perfectly well.

[dpick]

Problem for me is that most PPC though they may have bays for disabled that is all they do to accommodate the disabled. I believe that where a PPC gives say 90 minutes parking then a ticket they are discriminating against the disabled in that it can take a lot longer for a disabled person to go round say a shop. Delays from being trapped in a wheelchair by someone who just leave their trolley in the middle of an aisle or only one till with a wide aisle that is full of none disabled people wanting to pay (not that I blame them when all checkouts are full). I have had to start going to my Asda at 8am to avoid the rush but then have to wait for a checkout operator for the empty wheelchair checkout to come on that aisle.

 

To say that 90 minutes is enough for all people is for me discrimination.

 

dpick

[queensclose]

Problem for me is that most PPC though they may have bays for disabled that is all they do to accommodate the disabled. I believe that where a PPC gives say 90 minutes parking then a ticket they are discriminating against the disabled in that it can take a lot longer for a disabled person to go round say a shop. Delays from being trapped in a wheelchair by someone who just leave their trolley in the middle of an aisle or only one till with a wide aisle that is full of none disabled people wanting to pay (not that I blame them when all checkouts are full). I have had to start going to my Asda at 8am to avoid the rush but then have to wait for a checkout operator for the empty wheelchair checkout to come on that aisle.

 

To say that 90 minutes is enough for all people is for me discrimination.

 

dpick

 

surely if you dont feel 90 minutes is long enough. you should be speaking to Asda that they are in danger of losing you custom

[ploddertom]

surely if you dont feel 90 minutes is long enough. you should be speaking to Asda that they are in danger of losing you custom

 

 

Thought that was the reason Asda display signs that say BB holders are exempt from time limits - or at least all our local ones do.

[sailor sam]

Thought that was the reason Asda display signs that say BB holders are exempt from time limits - or at least all our local ones do.

 

BB's have no meaning on private land so being 'exempt' from time limits is not an issue legally as no one can be penalised or fined. Only recourse available to Asda would be to claim losses or damages. Or they could go through contractual law but then they would need to prove who they had the 'contract' with.

[sameagle]

"surely if you dont feel 90 minutes is long enough. you should be speaking to Asda that they are in danger of losing your custom"

 

Morrisons in Stone, Staffordshire have already lost a lot of money from me, and my "Caree's" [No, don't look it up, it's a better description of those whom I look after, than you'll ever come up with]

 

Amongst other things, I am a professional carer for the disabled and vulnerable - registered with two Councils and an NHS trust - I'm also a driver for Motability, and I live outside the "5 mile limit" that is supposed to apply to such drivers.

 

And I hold a blue badge in my own right, as it happens.

 

Just before Christmas, into Morrisons, big crowds, couldn't park in the yellow spaces, two disabled people on this occasion, and both eating in the cafe at different times.

 

Ever been halfway down the checkout queue and a "Caree" needs the loo - NOW!!, not in ten minutes, but now?

 

You have to get somebody to guard your trolley, [have you tried taking it through before you've paid?]

 

The security people don't lke it, and don't care, either, "More than my job's worth"

 

Then a ticket from Parking Eye appears, so I wrote to Morrisons - letter passed to some desk jockey, "Erm, can you send us till receipts?"

 

"No I bloody can't, the till receipt's belong to my "Caree's", they aren't mine, and why should I?"

 

Then my "Caree's" decided that they didn't see why I, and they, should be treated this way, and decided to boycott the place.

 

We've found Asda, Sainsburys' [good cafe], Aldi and Lidl [the mischievious twins!], and eateries in many other places.

 

So I wrote and told them - got no reply - so I suppose that the desk jockey was too embarrassed to reply - or too ashamed.

 

Morrisons, your Stone branch takings are down by a little over £6000 now from us - but I don't suppose you care - we are only disabled customers, aren't we?

 

Sam

Edited April 25, 2013 by sameagle
added one letter - deleted one word - added two words

[DaveyBT]

As I understand the discussions elsewhere, in the PPC situation, if the person who issues the ticket knows (or should know) that you or your passenger(s) is/are are disabled (regardless of any BB not being displayed) then under the Equalities Act they must make appropriate / reasonable provisions for the disability (e.g. by giving you more time, or not penalising you for using a "disabled" space etc). This is actually a responsibility of the landowner (on whose behalf they operate). If they couldn't reasonably know that you or your passenger(s) is/are disabled then they are not obliged to make special provisions.

 

They could reasonably argue that a valid BB on display helps them to make this distinction, although they have no "right" to demand it. The open issue in this discussion is that where PPC tickets are issued based solely on ANPR photos, they have no way of knowing about any disability and therefore you can tell them (after the event) about the disability and this should be a valid basis for successfully appealing / challenging the ticket. You might have to provide some supporting evidence for the claim to be disabled. (I'm deliberately avoiding the issues of whether PPC tickets / "fines" / "penalties" / "charges" etc are valid in the first place or whether a PPC will consider / accept ANY appeal - but these are different issues).

 

So far as a Council is concerned, obviously the BB is a formalised scheme which they know how to work with, but I would think that the other aspects of the Equality Act should also apply - i.e. if the warden (or whoever) knows (or should know) that you are disabled then he/she (on behalf of the Council) must make reasonable provision for your disability. Similarly if a ticket is issued then you should be able to appeal / challenge it on the basis of your disability (with appropriate "evidence"). I'm sure that will come as a shock to many councils, but remember that under Civil Enforcement you can appeal to an independent arbitrator (e.g . PATAS in London) - it doesn't need a test case in Court.

[sameagle]

In my case, a "request to pay" was issued through an ANPR system; I pointed out to Morrisons that, as part of the system and the desire for maximum revenue, no checks can be made using this method, [it was my car on that day, which isn't "Motability registered]

 

I've not had any further "reminders" from PE, but no notification of withdrawal of request" from Morrisons, either.

 

Too ashamed, I expect, two of my "Caree's" plan a "big shop" today, and I'm getting stuff on behalf of another, so Morrisons lose out on approx £250 today.

 

You would think that they would have a representative on this site, like Vodaphone and Kwikfit, etc, who wish to preserve their reputation, particularly as they recently announced that their profits are down - perhaps their profits are not affecting them as much as they are saying?

 

Have to go now - got people to care for - unlike some supermarkets!

 

Sam

[sailor sam]

As I understand the discussions elsewhere, in the PPC situation, if the person who issues the ticket knows (or should know) that you or your passenger(s) is/are are disabled (regardless of any BB not being displayed) then under the Equalities Act they must make appropriate / reasonable provisions for the disability (e.g. by giving you more time, or not penalising you for using a "disabled" space etc). This is actually a responsibility of the landowner (on whose behalf they operate). If they couldn't reasonably know that you or your passenger(s) is/are disabled then they are not obliged to make special provisions.

 

They could reasonably argue that a valid BB on display helps them to make this distinction, although they have no "right" to demand it. The open issue in this discussion is that where PPC tickets are issued based solely on ANPR photos, they have no way of knowing about any disability and therefore you can tell them (after the event) about the disability and this should be a valid basis for successfully appealing / challenging the ticket. You might have to provide some supporting evidence for the claim to be disabled. (I'm deliberately avoiding the issues of whether PPC tickets / "fines" / "penalties" / "charges" etc are valid in the first place or whether a PPC will consider / accept ANY appeal - but these are different issues).

 

So far as a Council is concerned, obviously the BB is a formalised scheme which they know how to work with, but I would think that the other aspects of the Equality Act should also apply - i.e. if the warden (or whoever) knows (or should know) that you are disabled then he/she (on behalf of the Council) must make reasonable provision for your disability. Similarly if a ticket is issued then you should be able to appeal / challenge it on the basis of your disability (with appropriate "evidence"). I'm sure that will come as a shock to many councils, but remember that under Civil Enforcement you can appeal to an independent arbitrator (e.g . PATAS in London) - it doesn't need a test case in Court.

 

Don't think it works like that. The contravention is 'Parked in a designated disabled person’s parking place without clearly displaying a valid disabled person’s badge'. It's not for the LA to decide whether or not a person's disability exempts them from a PCN by their disability alone. Without the badge, the 'rights' to park are the same as anybody else's as the requirement is to display the badge. As Green & Mean points out, not all disabilities have an impact on a person's mobility.

[SURFBOY]

"not all disabilities have an impact on a person's mobility".

Not all disabled people with mobility issues have a blue badge!

[lamma]

"You need a blue badge to prove you are entitled to park in disabled spaces." Only for on-street council parking. As I said. faulty logic.

[DaveyBT]

Don't think it works like that. The contravention is 'Parked in a designated disabled person’s parking place without clearly displaying a valid disabled person’s badge'. It's not for the LA to decide whether or not a person's disability exempts them from a PCN by their disability alone. Without the badge, the 'rights' to park are the same as anybody else's as the requirement is to display the badge. As Green & Mean points out, not all disabilities have an impact on a person's mobility.

Yes - that's the contravention under the "disabled persons badge scheme" but the unanswered question here is "what about obligations under the Equalities Act (which came later) ?". It is established that the Equalities Act obligations apply on private land parking situations in appropriate circumstances, so how do they apply on public land in appropriate circumstances, and what are the interactions with the blue badge scheme ?

[ericsbrother]

The problem lies with the definition of disabled being different for different purposes. For the blue badge scheme it is purely about mobility and the threshold can seem quite strict in some cases. For example an ex-soldier who has lost his legs wont get a blue badge if he can walk 100m on his false ones but a pensioner who takes a long time to walk 100m will get one. In the latter case that is frailty, not disability but that is what we have and we ae stuck with it.