DLA v PIP which one should my dad claim?

[della2]

Ignoring for the moment all of my mum's problems, dad, who will be 65 in early 2014 and as such he can currently claim either DLA or PIP.

 

I don't for one moment expect any award as no GP is available to give a medical report.

 

But maybe it is wise to put in a 'protective' claim before he reaches 65.

 

At the moment he can claim DLA, but seeing that PIP is coming in next year he could wait and claim that instead, given also the fact that he will have to qualify for PIP even if he was awarded DLA.

 

Which will be the best way forward - wait 12 months and go for one assessment/appeal/tribunal hearing under PIP or claim now and have to put up with two assessments/appeals/tribunal hearings.

 

I just don't know which way to advise him to jump.

 

He has major difficulties in walking (spinal problem), blacks out regularly, vascular disease, as well as other life threatening conditions.

[ErikaPNP]

My advice would be if he needs it now and should be entitled to it now, then claim it now.

[della2]

My advice would be if he needs it now and should be entitled to it now, then claim it now.

 

Yes I agree with you, it's just that I will have to work with him knowing that not only is he having to attend Tribunals every 6 months or so for his ESA claim, but will have to make a claim for DLA, appeal and go to another tribunal and sometime in the very near future have to make another claim for PIP, appeal and face another tribunal.

 

Leaving it will cut down on a claim form, a tribunal hearing and less stress, but obviously lose money in the meantime.

 

It's a bit of a difficult one. I'm just trying to judge what he is capable of going through with.

 

I'm not entirely sure if it will be the same questions and if PIP will be harder to get.

[count orlok]

Can't he get pension credits? Would get him double ESA assessment rate, and save all the hassle.

[della2]

Can't he get pension credits? Would get him double ESA assessment rate, and save all the hassle.

 

Pension credit is means tested - it would give them a maximum income of £217.90 a week. He receives ESA based on his previous contributions and together with all of the other household income takes them to approx £229 a week.

 

Claiming pension credit would make them worse off, but thanks for the advice.

 

However if, and I posted this elsewhere earlier, mum was awarded the very minimum of Attendance Allowance and dad the equivalent under DLA the pension credit would go up to £399.50 a week plus £103.70 a week from the two awards!!!

 

Seems crazy that those two awards would bring in that much more money a week - £285.30!!

Edited September 20, 2012 by della2

[count orlok]

OK, good luck with the DLA anyway.

[mekongmarcus]

not entirely sure if it will be the same questions and if PIP will be harder to get.

 

From what i have read,the moblity component of PIP will be harder to get as only those in wheelchairs will get the 12 points needed for the enhanced rate mobility.

 

I currently get HRM and LRC but under PIP it will reverse and i should get Enhanced care and standard moblity.

Edited September 20, 2012 by mekongmarcus

[Nystagmite]

From what i have read,the moblity component of PIP will be harder to get as only those in wheelchairs will get the 12 points needed for the enhanced rate mobility.

 

This is wrong. You may also be able to the higher mobility part of PIP if you need supervision to make a familiar journey.

[mekongmarcus]

10. Planning and following a journey.

a. Can plan and follow a journey unaided. 0 points

b. Needs prompting for all journeys to avoid overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant. 4 points

c. Needs either –

(i) supervision, prompting or a support dog to follow a journey to an unfamiliar destination; or

(ii) a journey to an unfamiliar destination to have been entirely planned by another person. 8 points

d. Cannot follow any journey because it would cause overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant. 10 points

e. Needs either –

(i) supervision, prompting or a support dog to follow a journey to a familiar destination; or

(ii) a journey to a familiar destination to have been planned entirely by another person. 15 points

 

 

I understood the criteria for points under section 10 to be psychological rather than physical,but i can see that c(i),d(i) may apply.

[della2]

10. Planning and following a journey.

a. Can plan and follow a journey unaided. 0 points

b. Needs prompting for all journeys to avoid overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant. 4 points

c. Needs either –

(i) supervision, prompting or a support dog to follow a journey to an unfamiliar destination; or

(ii) a journey to an unfamiliar destination to have been entirely planned by another person. 8 points

d. Cannot follow any journey because it would cause overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant. 10 points

e. Needs either –

(i) supervision, prompting or a support dog to follow a journey to a familiar destination; or

(ii) a journey to a familiar destination to have been planned entirely by another person. 15 points

 

 

I understood the criteria for points under section 10 to be psychological rather than physical,but i can see that c(i),d(i) may apply.

 

Thanks, now all of that has me totally confused.

 

dad finds it almost impossible to walk any distance without someone to lean on or be helped along. He uses a stick to support himself. Someone mentioned a wheelchair. Dad hasn't got one and I don't think he would even qualify for one. Those in wheelchairs are unable to walk at all.

 

Then you mention that he has to be that do-lally that when out walking with someone supporting him he wouldn't know where the newsagent or chemist is in the village (lived there for 41 years) or how to work out what road to go down to get there. What has that severe level of mental illness got to do with the ability to walk?

 

If things are that difficult and remembering that he will have to produce medical evidence backing it all up as well as pass another of those dratted assessments, I can't see that it would be worth upsetting him and trying to complete the claim form. The ESA50 forms are bad enough - I have to help him fill out two of those every year as it is!.

 

No I think I will forget the idea and concentrate on mum's Attendance Allowance claim - that seems a bit easier to understand.

 

But thankyou for the information - very enlightening.

[Nystagmite]

Those in wheelchairs are unable to walk at all.

 

No they're not. I used to know at least 2 people who could walk aided (one could walk unaided for short distances) and qualified for wheelchairs.

[mekongmarcus]

Unfortunately if you want the money you have to jump through a lot of hoops.Most need all the cash they can get.If cash is not too tight then extra income can be weighed against the stress of the supplementary benefits.

[della2]

No they're not. I used to know at least 2 people who could walk aided (one could walk unaided for short distances) and qualified for wheelchairs.

 

Thanks

 

But then how can someone differentiate between those that can walk but choose to have a wheelchair and those that have lost all movement below the hips and need a wheelchair?

 

Does it depend on how good your GP is? Or does it depend on someone being a good actor telling everyone that their ability to walk is so limited (when in reality it isn't - just exaggerating it a little!) that a wheelchair is approved?

 

Surely a wheelchair should only be available for those that cannot walk?

[della2]

Unfortunately if you want the money you have to jump through a lot of hoops.Most need all the cash they can get.If cash is not too tight then extra income can be weighed against the stress of the supplementary benefits.

 

It's not a question of whether the cash is important or not, but more a question of how much pressure and stress a person can take.

Two ESA assessments and tribunal appeals a year are bad enough.

To tell my dad that he must now have to use a wheelchair as well, is going a bit too far.

 

I always believed, rightly or wrongly, that when the seniors in this country ask for help they are given a little bit more leeway given their age, ability and health. Shouldn't those hoops be geared in accordance with those facts?

 

You simply cannot treat a 20 year old claimant the same as a 60+ year old claimant who is clearly in a very bad state of physical health as well as being so confused that he is being treated by the Community Mental Health Team at the local hospital.

Edited September 20, 2012 by della2

[reallymadwoman]

Thanks

 

But then how can someone differentiate between those that can walk but choose to have a wheelchair and those that have lost all movement below the hips and need a wheelchair?

 

Does it depend on how good your GP is? Or does it depend on someone being a good actor telling everyone that their ability to walk is so limited (when in reality it isn't - just exaggerating it a little!) that a wheelchair is approved?

 

Surely a wheelchair should only be available for those that cannot walk?

 

I'm afraid I found this a little offensive. I can walk but I also use a wheelchair. I don't choose to use a wheelchair, it is the only way I can cover the distance to e.g. get around a supermarket.

 

For a very short distance (mostly within the apartment where I can hold on to things) I can walk unaided, otherwise I use two crutches for slightly longer distances, say to get to the car, but for anything more I'm in the chair. You don't need to have lost all movement to qualify for a wheelchair nor do you need a good GP or acting skills, you need to need a wheelchair!

 

On your reasoning an awful lot of people would be refused wheelchairs because their legs are fully functional but walking would kill them because they have heart disease etc.

 

I'm sure no offence was intended.

[della2]

I'm afraid I found this a little offensive. I can walk but I also use a wheelchair. I don't choose to use a wheelchair, it is the only way I can cover the distance to e.g. get around a supermarket.

 

For a very short distance (mostly within the apartment where I can hold on to things) I can walk unaided, otherwise I use two crutches for slightly longer distances, say to get to the car, but for anything more I'm in the chair. You don't need to have lost all movement to qualify for a wheelchair nor do you need a good GP or acting skills, you need to need a wheelchair!

 

On your reasoning an awful lot of people would be refused wheelchairs because their legs are fully functional but walking would kill them because they have heart disease etc.

 

I'm sure no offence was intended.

 

Thanks

 

There was no intention at all to be offensive. If I came over that way I am sorry.

 

I was only trying to see things as (a) the DWP do, and (b) how my dad does.

 

He too has difficulty in walking. He even has one letter from the Spinal Unit at the local hospital, never mind the Vascular Unit who say the same thing, but for different reasons, that the max he can walk aided is 50 metres before he has to stop and rest because of severe pain. Then each sucessive further attempt gets shorter and shorter until after about 100 metres he can no longer move at all.

 

He rarely ventures from his home unless he is driven.

 

No one has ever suggested that he needs a wheelchair and I certainly don't consider him being that disabled and unable to potter about. I know that he would 'kick & scream' if ever it was suggested that he try one out!.

 

Maybe I am wrong, but I honestly believed that those who have been given a wheelchair are unable to walk - put one foot in front of another.

 

So, and I take your view into account, that in order for my dad to qualify under PIP for the enhanced rate for mobility he will have to swallow his pride and buy himself a wheelchair. He certainly won't have any joy from the GP given that both mum and dad have stopped using that service preferring the local walk in centre and A&E. The GP is only there to prescribe drugs on repeat prescription. As I have said before, the GP has written to mum and dad telling them both to find a new GP which they don't want to.

 

So is the system that inflexible to take into account the quirky nature and circumstances of each and every person?

[count orlok]

If one can propel oneself even a few feet in a wheelchair or hobble a few feet unaided, one will not qualify for the enhanced rate or be entitled to a car.

 

You don't even need to be disabled to get a wheelchair, anyone can buy one, chums have them on special offer at the moment. Trouble is using one would put more strain on my heart and back so I have to walk and hobble as best as i can.

[della2]

If one can propel oneself even a few feet in a wheelchair or hobble a few feet unaided, one will not qualify for the enhanced rate or be entitled to a car.

 

You don't even need to be disabled to get a wheelchair, anyone can buy one, chums have them on special offer at the moment. Trouble is using one would put more strain on my heart and back so I have to walk and hobble as best as i can.

 

 

well that does it, there is no point in even considering DLA or PIP for dad!

[count orlok]

He may get the standard rate and/or care.

 

PIP is still a year away yet, anything could still happen.

[fightingback99]

 

He too has difficulty in walking. He even has one letter from the Spinal Unit at the local hospital, never mind the Vascular Unit who say the same thing, but for different reasons, that the max he can walk aided is 50 metres before he has to stop and rest because of severe pain. Then each sucessive further attempt gets shorter and shorter until after about 100 metres he can no longer move at all.

/QUOTE]

 

Was just going to suggest if the distance being walked gets shorter due to Vascular disease, your Dad could try stopping and resting longer. that's the advice I was given. Otherwise distance gets shorter till the numb dead leg sets in and you fall over. That's what the Vascular surgeon advised in my case. Said I was being too impatient.!!

 

Not exactly practical mind you , apart from the time it takes to get anywhere can feel like a bit of an idiot standing still in the pouring rain for x minutes every 50 yards. But it does work. And mobility and keeping walking as often as you can is vital with vascular disease. He's doing the right thing by 'pottering' where he can.

[della2]

 

Was just going to suggest if the distance being walked gets shorter due to Vascular disease, your Dad could try stopping and resting longer. that's the advice I was given. Otherwise distance gets shorter till the numb dead leg sets in and you fall over. That's what the Vascular surgeon advised in my case. Said I was being too impatient.!!

 

Not exactly practical mind you , apart from the time it takes to get anywhere can feel like a bit of an idiot standing still in the pouring rain for x minutes every 50 yards. But it does work. And mobility and keeping walking as often as you can is vital with vascular disease. He's doing the right thing by 'pottering' where he can.

 

 

Thanks

 

As you say, on the Vascular side (PAD in both legs), resting longer does help a lot, but standing in the pouring rain for 5 mins every 50 metres looking an idiot does take some doing.

 

Unfortunately his diseased and damaged spine, makes standing as well as walking equally as difficult. His spinal problems were 'self inflicted' so some say that he should suffer the consequences. He was always a sporty type of person when younger, played senior rugby and was just as happy in a saddle as he was on two feet. He had a serious riding accident about 25 years ago that started all of this off.

 

I fully understand the impatient bit!! LOL His anger increases the more he tries to get about.

Only now is he starting to accept that pottering about is the limit of his abilities.

 

Should he be in a wheelchair? Well from I am told on here it would certainly give him a better chance of claiming a benefit, but should that need to happen? Why should he have to 'demonstrate' in that manner?

 

At the end of the day nothing changes, wheelchair or no wheelchair so that should be taken into account but it seems it isn't.

 

Medical opinion v the DWP.

 

Keep on moving about says the doctors V get in yourself in a wheelchair to prove that you have difficulty walking says the DWP!!

Edited September 21, 2012 by della2

[vikstar]

Ignoring for the moment all of my mum's problems, dad, who will be 65 in early 2014 and as such he can currently claim either DLA or PIP.

 

I don't for one moment expect any award as no GP is available to give a medical report.

 

But maybe it is wise to put in a 'protective' claim before he reaches 65.

 

At the moment he can claim DLA, but seeing that PIP is coming in next year he could wait and claim that instead, given also the fact that he will have to qualify for PIP even if he was awarded DLA.

 

Which will be the best way forward - wait 12 months and go for one assessment/appeal/tribunal hearing under PIP or claim now and have to put up with two assessments/appeals/tribunal hearings.

 

I just don't know which way to advise him to jump.

 

He has major difficulties in walking (spinal problem), blacks out regularly, vascular disease, as well as other life threatening conditions.

 

Another thing that you should take into account is, if you dad can obtain an award of DLA before PIP is rolled out nationally from Otober next year, and he is above working age by the time that they get round to him, that they only plan to transfer working age DLA recipients over to PIP, at present.

[della2]

Another thing that you should take into account is, if you dad can obtain an award of DLA before PIP is rolled out nationally from Otober next year, and he is above working age by the time that they get round to him, that they only plan to transfer working age DLA recipients over to PIP, at present.

 

Yes you are spot on there except the assessment timing.

 

Dad will be 65 in early 2014. The only people that will not be assessed for PIP will be those that are under 16 and over 65 as at the 8th April 2013.

 

The DWP are expecting to take until October 2016 at the earliest before everyone is re-assessed. My dad will be 67 in October 2016, but he would still have to be re-assessed if he managed to get an DLA award before PIP comes in.

It is entirely possible that if the October 2016 runs over by 6 months, you could well see pensioners who will be 69 being told to claim PIP and being re-assessed!

 

That is why I am wondering if it is better to wait until next year, just before his 65th birthday and apply for PIP and have just one assessment and one appeal hearing instead of claiming DLA now, then PIP later resulting in two assessments and two appeals.

 

The only thing stopping him at the moment is his refusal to entertain any more form filling than is absolutely necessary and certainly he wants to avoid any more Tribunal hearings over and above the two he has every year for his ESA claim.

Edited September 21, 2012 by della2

[Nystagmite]

Dad will be 65 in early 2014. The only people that will not be assessed for PIP will be those that are under 16 and over 65 as at the 8th April 2013.

 

No idea where you got that from; but that's not right.

[count orlok]

I would advise going for the DLA, he may not be made to go for PIP, but if he goes for and gets PIP (with its much higher rules) he would still have to be asses every couple of years. He could get an indefinite award (used to be life) of DLA, whereas with PIP this will not be an option, so would need multiple medicals/assessments.

 

Don't forget the last time this lot were in (just the tories, not condems), the riots made them get rid of the Poll Tax. The resulting riots from the changes to welfare may work again.