Argos amd DCA'S partly given up the ghost on me?

[j_semple]

I got a famous Pre-court Division letter from them today Seems as if they are fairly easy to deal with though? (I did get a DN from Argos which was written wrong as far as I know as it didn't specify a date to pay a sum of money) I'll scan both letters at 1 point over the weekend and post them on here to see what you make of them. Is it right that I have to CCA Moorcroft now? (I believe the account was created April 2003 infact I know as it was Good Friday 2003 that I opened the account with Argos)

[cerberusalert]

Is it right that I have to CCA Moorcroft now?

Yes; http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/581-cca-request-letter

[j_semple]

OK. That will be printed off tomorrow and sent first thing Monday Morning (Recorded delivery of course) I'm really not worried. The 1st time that a DCA has came crawling for a while and i'm absolutely not afraid of them (Thanks to this place after all)

[fuzzybobble]

Seems to be a lot of Argos stuff around on here just recently.

 

I'm pretty sure they won't be able to come up with anything in the way of an agreement from 2003 though. If they do send something, then it will be an either a reconstructed agreement, or a poor photocopy of an unenforceable application form.

 

My Argos account has spent the last 3 years being passed around 8 different DCA's (starting with Moorcroft of course.) Eventually the account will get sold. Mine was sold to DLC (Hillesdens) a few months ago. I've had 5 letters from them saying they're still waiting for the CCA documents from Argos. Almost time to give them a slap for processing my personal data without permission.

[j_semple]

Is a photocopy of a CCA Acceptable? I'm not too sure as i've dealt with DCA'S Before but never went into the whole CCA Business. (They haven't started to phone yet although I did get a couple of calls from Argos themselves (of course I didn't answer)

[fuzzybobble]

If they send anything it will either be a bad quality photocopy of an unenforceable application form. Or a modern one that won't have your signature on it. (unless you sign the CCA request letter, and they use that signature to add to a reconstucted agreement. They will fulfil the CCA request, but useless in court, as there they would have to provide the original agreement and it must contain the pescribed terms to make it enforceable. Pre 2007 Argos agreements are missing the pescribed terms. Also if they sent you a default notice, that will be flawed as they don't specify a date to comply by. So there are 2 things you will be able to trip them up with.

 

 

Once you CCA Moorcroft, it's likely they will pass the account back to Argos, who will then pass it onto another DCA a few months later. If this happens then it's likely no CCA exists for the account. Then you can just send the "Account in Dispute" letter to the next DCA to pop up.

 

A friend of mine used to work in a local Argos store about 4 years ago and she told me that they would often have to try and get customers to sign up for a storecard. They got a bonus for each customer that signed up and was accepted. Once a customer had signed the application form that the sales staff filled in it was faxed to head office for the credit check and approval. If accepted the originals were shredded every few weeks in the store. So if you get a poor copy of the CCA then it's likely to be a scanned copy of the fax that was sent. Usually some of it is unreadble, and all the in store applications are unenforceable as a credit agreement.

Edited May 23, 2010 by fuzzybobble

[j_semple]

I know for sure that I definety recieved a Default Notice from Argos on the 4th of May (the Tuesday after the Bank Holiday) and I'm sure it was dated 27th April and did give me 14 days to bring a balance up to date to avoid action (I'll have to hunt around and find it) Didn't for sure set out a definite date for payment just 14 days. The letter from Moorcroft was Dated 19th May and I got it yesterday.

[PaulW922]

Moorcroft are quite bad in more ways than one. I had a £5k debt to NatWest that was with Moorcroft. After a while it transpired that Moorcroft were sitting on my monthly payments for 60 days + before sending them to NatWest resulting in my credit file showing inaccurate data. They also denied receiving money I had sent them, only to admit to it ... 60 days later! Eventually I made such a fuss with NatWest that they dis-instructed Moorcroft, brought the debt back in house and I was able to clear it with a lump sum. However even that was based on an inaccurate outstanding balance as Moorcroft held off telling NatWest about two payments I had made, denying they existed. The money filtered through eventually of course, but I was really very surprised that a DCA was actually 'mis-leading' not just me as the debtor but their own customer as well.

[count orlok]

Moorcroft are quite bad in more ways than one. I had a £5k debt to NatWest that was with Moorcroft. After a while it transpired that Moorcroft were sitting on my monthly payments for 60 days + before sending them to NatWest resulting in my credit file showing inaccurate data. They also denied receiving money I had sent them, only to admit to it ... 60 days later! Eventually I made such a fuss with NatWest that they dis-instructed Moorcroft, brought the debt back in house and I was able to clear it with a lump sum. However even that was based on an inaccurate outstanding balance as Moorcroft held off telling NatWest about two payments I had made, denying they existed. The money filtered through eventually of course, but I was really very surprised that a DCA was actually 'mis-leading' not just me as the debtor but their own customer as well.

 

They would mis-lead their own granny if they thought there was any money in it.

[fuzzybobble]

Imagine a few hundered thousand held for 60 days. Works out at a nice few quid extra intrest on it for Moorcroft. Maybe not now, due to current interest rates, but it would have in the past. Old habits die hard.

 

It's a bit like why most employers now pay you monthly. Means they can hold onto your cash for a bit longer and make a bit on the side out of it. Plus they only have to do 12 wage slips instead of 52 each year.

[j_semple]

Just another quick Question. What's the best address to use to send to Moorcroft?

[j_semple]

Just a quick update. I've posted my CCA Request. I had to change it to S77 as it was for a catalogue obviously. All recorded delivery and 1st class. Should get that letter tomorrow and I'll sit back and see what they send next.

[j_semple]

No reply back from Moorcroft Yet. As I understand it I wait 12 + 2 days or whatever then if I get No CCA then I can send a In Dispute letter?

[cerberusalert]

12 working days from them receiving it.

[j_semple]

OK. I sent that all recorded tuesday last week and I know they got it. I would reckon that would give them to Next Friday if i'm correct? (I never signed the letter done it in print only and for extra security incase they start calling i've unhooked my phone in my room as nobody calls me on that anyway)

[j_semple]

Another update. I know they got the letter as I got this: (Stolen from another thread but it's more or less the same thing)

 

Dear Mr

 

We refer to your recently recieved letter requesting data as per 77-79 Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

We duly confirm that we have requested the relevant documentation from our client and once we have recieved we will forward the same to you. Meanwhile, we duly confirm that all collection activity on the account has been put on hold and we will not seek to enforce any payment of this debt until such time as documentation has been supplied or we have advised you to the contrary.

 

In the meantime, however, we believe that it may be of assistance to all parties if we also take this opportunity to ensure that any potential areas of dispute are addressed prior any possiable court action or further investiagtion. To this end, can you provide an indication of the information you are relying upon, when giving evidence to the court or information to the relevant authorities in relaltion to the alleged subject matter of this account.

 

Please could you provide this information by return as this will ensure that all possiable areas of dispute are identified as quickly as possiable therby minimizing potential costs and delays.

 

Should you have any questions or require any additional information please do not hesitate to contact us direct on the telephone number shown above.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Accounts Department.

 

So what do I do now pretty much? (It was dated 2nd June 2010 which would make it Wednesday)

[cerberusalert]

You don't have to do anything, they've told you at the beginning of the letter they have requested the CCA from the OC, the rest of the letter is just their normal carp.

[j_semple]

You don't have to do anything, they've told you at the beginning of the letter they have requested the CCA from the OC, the rest of the letter is just their normal carp.

 

As I expected. OK. I'll sit back and see what they come up with CCA wise (this should be fun)

[j_semple]

Still not got nothing from Moorcroft yet. A case of keep waiting or send the account in dispute letter yet? Just curious.

[cerberusalert]

I wouldn't bother unless they start chasing again.

[j_semple]

I wouldn't bother unless they start chasing again.

 

I'll leave as it is. I suppose though if Moorcroft still can't come up with anything that it will get passed to another collection Monkey? And again Send them the same thing? (Not been at home a lot recently and wanted to update on progress or lack of it so it seems)

[j_semple]

Update. Similair to this:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/259580-laalinz-moorcroft-mdr-3.html

 

I've also recieved the photocopy of the signed credit agreement and also stating that they will start collection again within 14 days. Joy. What do I need to hide from the copy? (I intend to scan it in at 1 point tomorrow when I'm a tad more awake)

[cerberusalert]

Remove anything that identifies you + any barcodes.

[j_semple]

Know how to do it now (Sorry for the edits)

 

http://img401.imageshack.us/i/moorcroft.gif/

 

http://img195.imageshack.us/i/argos.gif/

Edited July 3, 2010 by j_semple

[cerberusalert]

It's an application form which does not contain any of the required prescribed terms, send them this;

Dear Sirs,

 

Account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

This account is in Dispute .

 

On xx/xx/2009 I wrote to xxxxxxxxx requesting that xxxxxxx supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for this account.

In response to this request I was supplied a mere application form which did not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The document sent purporting to be a credit agreement does not contain any of the prescribed terms as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) made under the authority of the “1974 Act” sets out what the prescribed terms are, I refer you to Schedule 6 Column 2 of SI 1983/1553 for the definition of what is required. Suffice to say none of the terms are present in the document

 

Since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

In addition should you continue to pursue me for this debt you will be in breach of the OFT guidelines, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I refer to page 5 of the guidance which states;

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment.

 

I require you to produce a compliant copy of my credit agreement to confirm I am liable to you or any organisation, which you represent for this alleged debt, if you cannot do so I require written clarification that this is the case. Should you ignore this request I will report you to the Office of Fair Trading to consider your suitability to hold a credit licence in addition to a complaint to Trading Standards, as you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40

 

Since the agreement is unenforceable it would be in everyone’s interest to consider the matter closed and for your client to write the debt off. I suggest you give serious consideration to this as any attempt of litigation will be vigorously defended and I will counter claim for all quantifiable damages

 

I respectfully request a response to this letter in 14 days

 

 

I trust this out lines the situation

Print name do not sign