Phoenix bailiff issues - 3 old non paid Parking Tickets - fees correct?

[jetdog62]

Phoenix Commercial Collections, are so well established with councils it beggers belief.

 

Regardless of the mountains of complaints (I'm one of them) their marriage remains firm.

 

This can not help but raise suspicions.

 

Northampton Borough county council (NBCC) sent me a reply which appeared like a basic reply, meaning hard luck.

 

In the beginning.

 

My son had failed to pay 3 parking tickets NBCC issued, total amount £170, for this sin they asked for £255,

now having added 50% penalty.

Still the plank never paid it.

 

24th May 2012 last day to settle debt at this figure.

 

15th June 2012 NBCC hand the debt over to their favourite bailiff, Phoenix

 

18th June 2012 Phoenix demand £316.32

 

4th July 2012 a baillif..........calls at my home and speaks to another one of my sons, who told her truthly that his brother was not in.

 

9th July 2012 this women again calls and got the same reply as before.

On this occasion she threatened to keep returning at different times and days until the debt is paid ,

and in a aggressive tone, the door was shut in her face.

10 minutes later she put a notice through the front door stating she would be back on the 14th at 6am

with a van to remove chattles and goods from my house to the value now of £667.37

 

Unfortunately, my wife who suffers from bad nerves paid the debt over the phone the next day. For my part I was shaping up for the confrontation.

 

I'm not defending my son.

What I am mad about is the GBH approach from Phoenix, and the blind eye NBCC are turning in the matter.

With this amount of money going to the bailiff, 2 visits and threats £391.37.

 

There must be an attempt by those of us who have been severley damaged in the pocket by council and bailiff bandits, to form an organisation to fight back.

Edited July 29, 2012 by jetdog62
formatted for easiser reading

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Has your son been taken to court for non payment?

[old bill]

By my calculations, Phoenix have charged at least £340.00 in illegal fees, that is, fees the law does not allow them to charge and for work they have not carried out.

 

Looking at your initial post, there is certainly evidence of Fraud by False Misrepresentation (Section 2, Fraud Act 2006) and, possibly, Blackmail (Section 21, Theft Act 1968) as well, because of the threat to remove goods to the value of a sum she had no right in law to demand. Whether she believes her threat was a proper means of enforcing the demand is immaterial. The demand was unlawful/illegal.

 

Short of putting a thermonuclear device under the backsides of your local constabulary, you would probably be better pursuing a civil claim in the Small Claims Court against Phoenix and the bailiff for the illegal fees. I would also recommend making complaints to the OFT's Credit Fitness Team and Department for Communities & Local Government. If you want the contact addresses and contact names, post up and I will post them up for you.

[Jamberson]

Looking at your initial post, there is certainly evidence of Fraud by False Misrepresentation (Section 2, Fraud Act 2006) and, possibly, Blackmail (Section 21, Theft Act 1968) as well, because of the threat to remove goods to the value of a sum she had no right in law to demand.

 

What are you talking about?

 

Jetdog: First of all, how much was actually paid to the bailiff?

 

Second, can you - or your son, whose responsibility this is - get a breakdown of fees from the bailiff? You are entitled to one, free of charge - it's a statement spelling out what you were charged for.

 

Thirdly - sorry to say, but this is a case study in what happens to people who ignore their parking tickets these days. Your son owes you whatever the answer is to the first question. I suggest you make him pay you back and take the rest of the issues up himself.

[old bill]

What are you talking about?

 

Jetdog: First of all, how much was actually paid to the bailiff?

 

Second, can you - or your son, whose responsibility this is - get a breakdown of fees from the bailiff? You are entitled to one, free of charge - it's a statement spelling out what you were charged for.

 

Thirdly - sorry to say, but this is a case study in what happens to people who ignore their parking tickets these days. Your son owes you whatever the answer is to the first question. I suggest you make him pay you back and take the rest of the issues up himself.

 

Obviously something you either don't or won't understand. And, contrary to what you say, I do know what I'm talking about. Any fees demanded that are not permitted by law and/or for work not carried out are fraudulent, within the meaning of Section 2, Fraud Act 2006. If at the time of demanding payment of such fraudulent fees, menaces, namely threats, are used in order to enforce payment, then the offence of Blackmail is committed.

 

Blackmail is defined as the making of an unwarranted demand or demands and at the time of doing so using menaces (threats) as a means of enforcing the demand or demands. The person making the demands has to prove they have a right in law to make the demands and that the use of menaces is a proper means of enforcing the demands. If they cannot, then they commit Blackmail and are liable, on conviction, to a term of imprisonment not exceeding 14 years.

 

Fraud by False Misrepresentation carries a maximum penalty, on conviction, of a term of imprisonment not exceeding 10 years.

 

If you read my post, which you obviously have, you will note that the certificated scrote charged at least £340.00 in fees the law does not permit them to charge and for work they had not carried out.

 

I don't what it is, Jamberson, but I get the distinct impression that you are either a bailiff or connected with the bailiff industry in some way, because you encourage OPs to pay bailiff fees, even when a bailiff has acted illegally, including charging fees that are clearly not permitted by law and/or for work not carried out, as in the OP's case.

[jetdog62]

Old Bill, Thanks for your advice, and further help offered. I need all the help I can get to deal with these Phoenix thugs. They really do feel they do not answer to anyone. Thanks again.

[jetdog62]

Jamberson

How much was paid to the bailiff? £667.37

And thanks for nothing. Are you a bailiff?

Edited July 29, 2012 by jetdog62

[jetdog62]

Brigadier

Ref: In court action? NO

[old bill]

Hi Jetdog,

 

I'm attaching electronic copies of the Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts (Certificated Bailiffs) Regulations 1993-2003 for your reference. This will give you the necessary back-up when you challenge Phoenix. Once you start quoting legislation, they can't really argue with it, because they don't make the law, Parliament does.

 

As for reclaiming the fraudulent fees, you can try the "I'm Bending Over Backwards to be Reasonable" approach and give NBCC and/or Phoenix the chance to reimburse the fraudulent fees and formally apologise, or you could go for the "I'm Putting You Lot Down for An Early Crucifixion" approach and take them and the bailiff to the Small Claims Court. Neither a certificated bailiff or a bailiff company can risk having a CCJ against their name; the bailiff would forfeit their certificate and bond and Phoenix would be closed down.

 

In addition to the above, find out which court issued the bailiff's certificate and write a letter to the Court Manager at that court, dropping the bailiff in the slurry pit. A member on another consumer website who did that had a letter come back with a request from the District Judge to submit a Form 4 complaint. If this happens, check with the court as to costs, but be aware that mention of costs in Form 4 hearings is being checked for accuracy.

 

You should make a formal complaint against Phoenix to the OFT's Credit Fitness Team. Phoenix has a CCA Licence to collect public and other debt. Send an email to enquiries@oft.gsi.gov.uk, inserting the words CREDIT FITNESS in the subject box. Give a clear and concise resume of your complaint.

 

You will need to quote the following information in your complaint -

 

Company Name: Phoenix Commercial Collections

CCA Licence No.: 579070

 

A complaint to the Department for Communities & Local Government wouldn't go amiss. Their contact details are as follows -

 

Eland House

Bressenden Place

London

SW1E 5DU

 

Email: contactus@communities.gov.uk

 

Rt Hon Eric Pickles (Secretary of State)

Rt Hon Grant Shapps (Minister of State for Housing & Local Government)

Sir Bob Kerslake (Permanent Secretary)

 

You can check the bailiff's details at http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/enforcement-officers and click on the link for Certificated Bailiff Register. Once you have found out which court issued the bailiff's certificate, you can use the site's search engine to obtain the court contact details.

[jetdog62]

Old Bill, thanks again for your help, I will inform you if I have any success.

[brassnecked]

The crimes, of fraud and blackmail mentioned by oldbill were complete the minute your wife, the third party paid the"Fines" and bailiff charges, the bailiff knew they were wrong and had been inflated with unlawful fees but continued to press a third party who was NOT the debtor to pay under threat of removal of "their" goods for someone elses debt anyway.

 

For information for those who support the bailiffs position, and no one is denying their right to call and ask for payment of all monies rightly due; well yes the debt is payable, but as a portion of the fees were illegal, and they were actually pressing a third party for payment on pain of seizure of "their" goods not the debtors, therefore the mens rea was all present and correct, the aforementioned crimes have been committed.

 

This would be true even if the fallback position of what a bailiff is allowed to assume, and levy on in the reasonable belief that the goods belonged to the debtor, is put forward. After the visit on 4th July when the bailiff was told that brother was not in, the bailiff should have realised it was a family home, and the available goods to levy beyond maybe a car and some personal belongings would not belong to the debtor. By the bailiff continuing to threaten the third parties with undue and wrongful actions like more threats to turn up with a van early doors to remove third party goods, made the crimes complete on the payment made by the mother imho.

 

The unavailability of the household goods and chattels would most likely have have been proved by means of Stat Dec, and possible receipts if an unlawful levy had been performed, rather than the third party payment made under menaces.

 

Jetdog, remember as you progress this, the LA cannot absolve itself in any litigation or complaint of any wrongdoing, even if they try to pass all the blame to Phoenix and do a Pilate washing their hands, they are wholly vicariously liable both jointly and severally for the wrongdoing/crimes of their agent Phoenix so for completeness issue a Formal Complaint to the council, copying in the CEO, elected leader your councillor and MP, outlining where the law has been broken with reference to what the regulations say. Mention your submission of complaint to OFT etc also in the complaint. This will indicate to even the thickest and most bone-headed official that something is seriously amiss with the actions of their agents, and they could and will go down with them.

Edited July 30, 2012 by brassnecked

[old bill]

I couldn't have put it better myself, BN.

 

Jamberson - Read and inwardly digest what BN has posted. And if you are connected with the bailiff industry in any way, tell the management of bailiff companies and their out-of-control employees that the tide is changing against them.

[brassnecked]

I think it is pertinent to point out that even if the fees were all kosher, halal, and correct, the bailiffs in this case were still guilty of the Fraud by Misrepresentation, and the Blackmail, as they successfully extorted money from a third party, NOT the debtor. There is no mitigation in the fact it was the debtor's mother who paid, as if child is over the age of majority even if they live under the same roof a parent is no longer financially liable for the child.

 

The real issue to me, for those who say pay up anyway, and ask questions later's, information isn't the debtor's failure to pay, it is the way the bailiffs wrongfully, and with NO FEAR of legal consequences to themselves continued enforcement, against a third party who owed nothing that is the issue here. No problem with them asking for and obtaining the correct sum from the actual debtor, it is the blatant and obnoxious habit bailiffs from Phoenix, Marstons Phillips, Crapquita and others have of screwing payments from innocent parties, in a manner that would have a normal person in jail for a very long time that's what really gets up my nose.

 

Time to look at the legality of allowing bailiffs to automatically assume cars, and chattels outside and around a premises, belong to a named debtor also imho

Edited July 30, 2012 by brassnecked

[Jamberson]

Jamberson

How much was paid to the bailiff? £667.37

And thanks for nothing. Are you a bailiff?

 

No, of course I'm not a bailiff. Notwithstanding the apparent suspicion which these crazy people have stirred up - I am spending my time on here trying to help people out.

 

The reason I asked what Old Bill was talking about was because at that point it had not been established that you paid all these fees. You hadn't said so. He does what he always does and flies off into a rant about fraud, blackmail, police, courts, prison etc when he doesn't know the facts.

 

Thanks for clarifying - you have paid these extra fees which, on the face of it, should not have been charged. As I said, you need to get a breakdown of fees in writing from the bailiff, as I advised. Once you have it, you should approach the local authority in question with a complaint, and demand of a refund of the excess charges, assuming there are some.

 

I stand by my other comment re getting your son to face the issue.

 

You can ignore my advice if you consider it worthless, but if you listen to crackpot nonsense about blackmail, courts and prisons then you are on a hiding to nothing.

 

Good luck whatever you decide.

 

By the way, I worked for my local council actually running the team that dealt with bailiff cases, for three years. I know what I'm talking about.

[brassnecked]

Jamberson, I think oldbill goes on about these crimes, because if it had been you or me doing something similar but wasn't a bailiff our collars would be felt quick smart, and police are woefully unaware of how bailiff powers work, and often condone and assist unlawful behaviour. I agree a complaint must be raised, but then is it fair that they then get away scot free, after paying back the money, you or i would go to jail, they are free to defraud someone else.

[Jamberson]

Yes, I agree, but these moral crusades are not a viable way to help someone who's out of pocket. First of all they need to get evidence of the overcharge, then ask for it back - the council should be approached first. That's the only sensible way forward. None of you told him to get a breakdown of fees - but for saying that, I get told "Thanks for nothing"!

 

We can all feel angry and agrieved at the way the cards are stacked in their favour, but unless someone tells people what to do, like get a breakdown of charges, then there's no point in the forum at all. I'd love to say the bailiff is a criminal and should be in court and will go to prison for 10 years - but it's fantasy land.

[old bill]

No, of course I'm not a bailiff. Notwithstanding the apparent suspicion which these crazy people have stirred up - I am spending my time on here trying to help people out.

 

The reason I asked what Old Bill was talking about was because at that point it had not been established that you paid all these fees. You hadn't said so. He does what he always does and flies off into a rant about fraud, blackmail, police, courts, prison etc when he doesn't know the facts.

 

Thanks for clarifying - you have paid these extra fees which, on the face of it, should not have been charged. As I said, you need to get a breakdown of fees in writing from the bailiff, as I advised. Once you have it, you should approach the local authority in question with a complaint, and demand of a refund of the excess charges, assuming there are some.

 

I stand by my other comment re getting your son to face the issue.

 

You can ignore my advice if you consider it worthless, but if you listen to crackpot nonsense about blackmail, courts and prisons then you are on a hiding to nothing.

 

Good luck whatever you decide.

 

By the way, I worked for my local council actually running the team that dealt with bailiff cases, for three years. I know what I'm talking about.

 

Jamberson - You have seriously overstepped the mark in what you have posted. It is libellous and I would ask that you remove Paragraphs 2 and 5 of your post immediately. If you do not, then I will ask the Site Team to remove them or the entire post.

 

What you don't seem to understand, Jamberson, is that when a person makes an unwarranted demand for whatever reason and uses menaces in order to enforce it, the law regards that as Blackmail or Attempted Blackmail at the very least, if the demand and menaces do not work. The questions in the law exams police officers take are drawn from Bar exams, if you want any idea of the standard police officers have to meet.

[brassnecked]

Jamberson, surely only the debtor could ask for the breakdown, and that is the correct thing to do in normal circumstances. If the third party was to request it, they would likely meet with the "can't do that guv, you ai'nt entitled to that confidential information you ain't the debtor, data protection and all that old bean sorry"

 

Only the son could request that, and he hadn't paid under duress, now he should to get his mothers money back, and then maybe the police should be involved and feel the bailiffs collar, because the crimes as stated are proven to the criminal burden of proof. It is about time that this sort of "white collar" crime was investigated and stamped on imho.

 

This part should follow after the usual remedy and actions like requesting breakdown etc had been gone through, but where a third party has been coerced into paying a criminal investigation is required imho to get the bad apples into the open and removed.

Edited July 30, 2012 by brassnecked

[jetdog62]

To all of you who have taken up the matter of 3 fines my son incurred. Thank you very much.

However, we're getting off the main crux of things. I'm not defending my son, or the set fee of northampton borough council (nbcc) who have made 5.5 million pounds since 2007 on motoring fines What course of action can I take on these points:-

 

• Threats from Phoenix Commercial Collections (bailiffs)against my goods and property.
  
• The bullying from their doorstep rep. (Two visits without warning)
  
• The amount of money these bailiffs pile on £391 for 17 day window since receiving instructions from NBCC.
  
• The blind defence of these thugs by NBCC, which raises ones eyebrows
  

.An MP is now taken up my case.

With the amount of liberties bailiffs take (above the law), and in particular the said company, surely we could muster enough support from the people to get their powers limited, and closely monitored by a government office. David (No 10) wants an open and fair society.!

Thanks everyone

[brassnecked]

Glad your MP has taken up the case, as these bailiffs and that council are out of control, and deserve criminal investigation. At the least you get your money back, It's not your fault your son didn't pay the fines, so why should you and your wife be out of pocket because scrote bailiffs intimidated her into paying. It is as abhorrent as if they made a neighbour in a block of bedsits pay another tenants PCN, equally illegal.

 

oldbill, myself and others are trying to raise awareness, and help point you and others similarly affected as innocent parties to an enforcement, in a direction to tackle this illegal behaviour, by this and other councils and bailiff companies, I doubt if yours was an isolated incident.

Edited July 30, 2012 by brassnecked

[old bill]

Yes, I agree, but these moral crusades are not a viable way to help someone who's out of pocket. First of all they need to get evidence of the overcharge, then ask for it back - the council should be approached first. That's the only sensible way forward. None of you told him to get a breakdown of fees - but for saying that, I get told "Thanks for nothing"!

 

We can all feel angry and agrieved at the way the cards are stacked in their favour, but unless someone tells people what to do, like get a breakdown of charges, then there's no point in the forum at all. I'd love to say the bailiff is a criminal and should be in court and will go to prison for 10 years - but it's fantasy land.

 

Jamberson,

 

Firstly, no-one is on a "moral crusade". Secondly, there is a lot of evidence, on CAG and other consumer websites, of charging of fees not permitted by law and for work not carried out, physical assaults against debtors and coercion to pay fees the debtor is not legally-required to pay or which the bailiff is not entitled to charge, either because there is no justification or for work not carried out.

 

Asking for a breakdown of fees will show if a bailiff is acting dishonestly. Equita are the biggest offenders in this respect and have dropped a number of their certificated bailiffs in the proverbial. If a bailiff company sends out a breakdown of fees or statement of account that contains entries that are misleading or false, the company and its management team are liable to prosecution. Likewise, if a bailiff makes demands the law says they are not permitted to make, regardless of whether it is done deliberately or recklessly, it is not a civil matter. It is a criminal matter. The 1% of certificated bailiffs in the UK who play it by the book and obey the law make a very good living and are very successful as a result, which says an awful lot.

 

I'm sorry, Jamberson, but the reality is that the vast majority of certificated bailiffs in the UK break the law on an almost-daily basis and because police officers do not receive training in bailiff law, the civil enforcement industry get away scot-free. Because once the police realise they are being mislead by certificated bailiffs, there is going to be one almighty backlash and when that comes, I wouldn't like to be a certificated bailiff. Because it will be payback-time - big-time.

 

Lastly, would you please remove the libellous content from Post #14, as asked 2.5 hours ago. The Site Team has been PMed and asked to remove the paragraphs. Can I suggest you pre-empt them?

[Jamberson]

What course of action can I take on these points:-

 

• Threats from Phoenix Commercial Collections (bailiffs)against my goods and property.
  
• The bullying from their doorstep rep. (Two visits without warning)
  
• The amount of money these bailiffs pile on £391 for 17 day window since receiving instructions from NBCC.
  
• The blind defence of these thugs by NBCC, which raises ones eyebrows
  

 

 

Regarding the threats, I presume there is no independent record of what was said (eg a recording)? It would be your word against the bailiff as to whether he made a threat specifically against your property, as opposed to property belonging to the debtor which he thought might be on the premises. I don't doubt your account of what happened, but you can see the problem you would have in trying to prove the exact details of the conversation.

 

Regarding bullying, again I think it would be difficult to progress with a complaint. They are entitled to call - of course they are not entitled to bully anyone, but it will be difficult to prove.

 

The money they pile on - yes, again I advise you to get a breakdown of fees. If, as suggested above, they refuse (as you are not the debtor) then get your son to request one. He is entitled to one, free of charge. Then you can go over it and establish which parts of the fees are legit and which are not.

 

Blind defence by NBCC - I would just say that raising an eyebrow isn't really defending them. The council would need evidence of wrongdoing, but I believe from personal experience that they would take it seriously if you can provide some. Likewise, I would expect them to refund you any excess fees if you show them in writing what you have been charged for. (But then again, you will probably have problems trying to take up that part of the issue on behalf of a third party - the son.)

[old bill]

To all of you who have taken up the matter of 3 fines my son incurred. Thank you very much.

However, we're getting off the main crux of things. I'm not defending my son, or the set fee of northampton borough council (nbcc) who have made 5.5 million pounds since 2007 on motoring fines What course of action can I take on these points:-

 

• Threats from Phoenix Commercial Collections (bailiffs)against my goods and property. Threats can be in written, verbal or electronic form. The form will determine what action can be taken against them.
  
• The bullying from their doorstep rep. (Two visits without warning) Depends on what form the bullying took.
  
• The amount of money these bailiffs pile on £391 for 17 day window since receiving instructions from NBCC. If the total contains fees not permitted by law or for work not carried out and you've already paid, that is Fraud by False Misrepresentation. If you haven't yet paid, that's Attempted Fraud by False Misrepresentation
  
• The blind defence of these thugs by NBCC, which raises ones eyebrows That is best dealt with under Civil Law, unless you can positively-identify any council officer(s) as being actively involved in any criminal wrongdoing, in which case, they get clobbered, not the local authority. The LA is liable under Civil law.
  

.An MP is now taken up my case.

With the amount of liberties bailiffs take (above the law), and in particular the said company, surely we could muster enough support from the people to get their powers limited, and closely monitored by a government office. David (No 10) wants an open and fair society.!

Thanks everyone

 

Right. My comments are in red. Steps are being taken to bring about a change in the way peeps and politicians view the behaviour of local authorities and their private-sector enforcement contractors.