Noise nuisance for 6 months, at wits end! Can we sue?

[nikkikitch]

hi there

 

My housemate and i live in a flat above a bar in a block of flats. The most stupid location for a bar ever given its surrounded by other flats and no other bars! ANYWAY, when we moved in , the bar wasn't open or we never would've taken the flat.

 

Over the last 6 months we have had to have the councils environmental officers out on at least 5 occasions, have had sound equipment and recorded the ridiculous level of music coming from the place. Its so loud and clear that you can hear every word of the song, can't hear the tV if its on and its still perfectly audible through ear plugs!

 

Not only do we have noise issues, but people smoke just under our windows meaning it wafts in the flat, we've had to put up with people urinating on our front door, finding used condoms everywhere, riot vans, fighting and screaming drunk women leaving the place every night until 1am.

 

The ridiculous thing is, its in a block of exclusive city centre apartments, we pay an absolute fortune for the place yet have had our lives ruined by this horrific place.

 

My housemates bedroom is above the bar, she hasn't had a good nights sleep since we moved in. We live in a duplex and i can even hear it clearly in my bedroom upstairs.

 

The council have agreed that its excessive and issued a noise abatement order around 3 months ago. The bar continues to ignore our requests to turn it down, but because the original manager has now left, the council have to start from scratch and have served a fresh noise abatement order which gives them 3 MONTHS to install insulation.

 

So now even better, we have to put up with the music, the dragging of barrels across the slate floor, the screaming, smoke and everything else PLUS the insulation works which they do every WEEKEND from 8am! So now disturbing our weekends as well as our evenings.

 

We are at our wits end. We have written to the bar directly and told them we will start legal proceedings if it doesn't stop but they've ignored us!

 

Can we sue them because i think we deserve compensation for what we've put up with!!!

 

Thanks

 

x

[stu007]

Hi

 

Write a formal complaint to the Chief Executives Office of the Local Council and state everything thats happened and your disappointment at the lack of a resolution to this ongoing noise issue.

 

Then also take it up with your Local MP and try and get them onside.

 

As they at present have a Noise Abatement Order everytime the noise affects you complaint to the council, police and your MP.

[nikkikitch]

Hi thanks for your reply.

 

Whilst we can keep complaining, we really want to know if we can sue them for compensation for the strain its had on our health and wellbeing!

 

We looked at small claims but i think we'd go for more than £5,000 to be honest so just need to know if we need a solicitor or if we can do it ourselves?

 

Thanks

[ErikaPNP]

You can sue but to have a claim for damages, you have to be able to prove what loss, damage or injury the other party's actions have caused you. It's worth mentioning that 'compo claims' are often far less than you expect, and are not automatically awarded, so you need to do some research first to ensure you have a valid case for the amount of compensation you seek. You don't want to go through all of it for nothing.

 

You don't have to use a solicitor and can make a claim yourself. There is a fee to pay but you can ask in your claim that the respondants (the pub) pay your legal costs. Again, this is something for the court to decide.

 

If you want to go the small claims route, CAG does sell a guide book on the procedures - it's on the left hand side at the top of the page.

 

In all honesty, if you have not suffered any losses/damage or injury, I would leave it to the council as you don't want to land yourself with court costs that you might not get back. You wouldn't be able to use the previous order against the pub in court as the respondants are not the same people that the previous order was made against.

[stu007]

Hi

 

As the business will require a license oficial complaint to license depart of local authority and also

 

contact your local police and ask to speak to the Team that deals with licensing and advise them of your issue they should also give you advice but always report to police as this way every incident is logged with them thus its more evidence for the local authority and inform them you reported it to the police.

[ErikaPNP]

Great advice from Stu007

[tvlicensingblog]

I would think that the Abatement Notice is still good if it's the same business it was issued to, regardless of the fact the manager has now left. I have gone through something similar, but thankfully the statutory nuisance (from a neighbouring residential property in my case) stopped as soon as the Abatement Notice was issued. From the research I did at the time it would appear that pursuing these cases through the civil court is very difficult indeed, as you have to present clear evidence that your level of health/comfort has been seriously impaired by the actions of the offender.

 

If an Abatement Notice is in force then the penalties are quite stiff. In the case of someone breaching a residential Abatement Notice the maximum fine is £500 for each day the Notice is breached. I would expect Business premises to face even tougher penalties.

[blitz]

You say you have complained to the council, have you also spoken to your local councillor(s) who should be able to take on the casework

[ErikaPNP]

I would think that the Abatement Notice is still good if it's the same business it was issued to, regardless of the fact the manager has now left.

 

You are absolutely right about that, if it is a change in manager alone. However, if the business has changed hands, the previous order cannot be enforced against the new licensee/owner or used against the new licensee/owner in civil proceedings. Although the OP states 'manager' I think it's a new licensee/owner, because the council would not have to start new proceedings just because a member of staff had left.

 

Doesn't really matter though as the council have served a new order.

[nikkikitch]

Hi

 

We have about 20 recordings of the music levels, screaming outside etc. Plus the council have said they will provide their evidence , call out feedback and the recordings that they did for us. would that be enough?

On Saturday night, it was louder than ever before. I was sat in my bedroom which is 2 floors above the bar with ear plugs in and could still hear the music clearly!!

 

Thanks

[LaughingGirl]

I think what Erika was trying to say is that you will need to prove that you have suffered loss, damage or injury - not that you will have to prove that a noise problem exists. That the problem exists probably wouldn't be under dispute.

[nikkikitch]

does stress and lack of sleep count as injury?

 

My flatmate who lives above the bar has actually had to go to the doctors because of the effect its had on her wellbeing. She can't sleep until at least 1am EVERY night meaning she's had to start taking sleeping pills and has become anxious and exhausted.

 

Not to mention the fact that my son, who stays every weekend is kept awake! (he's 12)

[ErikaPNP]

Stress and an inability to sleep can be considered, yes. Nuisance and inconvenience can be considered.

 

You are looking for compensation of more than £5000.There are limits to what a court can award for each type of injury/damage/loss, depending upon the type of injury/damage/loss, the extent of it and (with most types of injury cases) what supporting medical evidence there is.

 

The immediate problem I forsee is the extent; you cannot sue the new owner for noise caused by the previous owner. The new owner will argue that once they were made aware of the problem and were served with a notice to install insulation, they began undertaking the insulation work. They will make out that you are being ridiculous in complaining about the noise of the insulation work when they are acting under the order of the local authority and the work is being carried out to prevent you suffering from further noise pollution.

 

Please be assured that I'm not trying to put you off; I've lived through noise myself and it is very unpleasant (to put it mildly). But I am trying to point out what you need to consider. You also need to understand what the other side will use in defence. You don't want to go through all of it and come out with nothing. At least see if you can get a free half hour with a solicitor before you submit a claim, so you can explain the problem and establish whether you realistically have a claim (and if so, an approximate estimate of the value of the claim).

[nikkikitch]

thank you thats really helpful.

 

Just to point out though, the bar hasn't changed ownership, only manager. The council told us that the notices are served on the manager not the owner. Does that strengthen things?

[ErikaPNP]

That's very strange. Although a NAO can be served on a person, it is normally served on the premisis when it's a licensed premises that is causing the nuisance. The answer to your question is 'probably not'. Unless you can prove that the old order applied to the new manager, which is unlikely if the council had to start the whole process all over again. I'm sorry I cannot be more specific; I'd rather be frank with you and say I'm not 100% sure than give you the wrong information.

[stu007]

Hi

 

Have you had a chat yet with the Local Polices Licencing Team?

 

Everytime an incident happens contact the police even if it not an emergency so its logged with them and inform your local council that you contacted the police.

 

This way it leaves a big paper trail of evidence.

[nikkikitch]

hi

 

we haven't spoken to the local polices licensing team but will definitely give it a go.

We've been a bit put off about phoning the police, would they not just laugh at us!?

 

Thanks x

[LaughingGirl]

hi

 

we haven't spoken to the local polices licensing team but will definitely give it a go.

We've been a bit put off about phoning the police, would they not just laugh at us!?

 

Thanks x

 

If you mean the local licensing unit, they definitely won't laugh at you. If there has been riot vans at the pub and it's known to the Police as a problem establishment, they'll probably be delighted to hear from you, in fact. The Police don't enjoy having their time wasted acting as bouncers for pubs who don't properly apply the licensing laws.

 

As for calling the Police every time there's a problem, I doubt they'd laugh at you, but I would be surprised if they actually turned up for something like a noise issue if it's a Friday or Saturday night.

[Endymion]

Look at your insurance policies to see if you have legal expenses cover. If you have then you may well be able to utilise this to have them instruct solicitors to act on your behalf, irrespective of the level of damages you would seek and also cover you if you lost and had to pay the Defendant's and your own fees.

 

Do you own the property you live in? If you do, you could seek damages for detriment to the value of the property. If renting then you can claim, say half the rent back per month, for loss of enjoyment etc.

[nipped-off]

Nikki - one more thing to try is the official registered use of the business, and their license in terms of how late they can stay open - get these both checked. i had the very same problem, and found that the build conversion to a pub was not in fact fully official and planning approval had not been obtained for everything they had done, and they had not done all that they needed to do - wham. had them scrambling as council nabbed them fast ( money in their pocket then) and planning approval had to be done, sound proofing, notices outside to keep quiet, and they had to stop all music etc by 10pm as it was a residential area. no late license either - that was pulled.

[nikkikitch]

When we first moved in i checked the licence with the council and apparently they can play music until midnight every night and from 11am in the morning. Its insane isn't it given the bar is in an entirely residential area! How can that be right!?

 

I also know that when it first opened they definitely didn't have planning permission for a seating area outside which they only stopped using about a month ago! So for good 5 months, they didn't have planning permission for it.

[Endymion]

Have you made an application for a review of the license? If not, I would apply, and get everyone you know who lives nearby to make an application.

 

Here is the form:-

 

http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/publications/P_428.pdf

[nikkikitch]

No we haven't, this is great thanks! I know other tenants have complained too so it shouldn't be too hard to get some support.

[Endymion]

If you do make a review for the license you may want to speak to your local community police officer who might be able to either provide you with some information in regards to callouts/arrests/assaults etc. The local police may also want the place closing down or taming down and may be quite willing to help. If no help is forthcoming you can always make a FOI request for the stats which you can then use in the review.

 

Obviously the council data and noise abatement order(s) will also help.

[stu007]

Hi nikki

 

Also get a petition going about this with tenants and residents signing and sent to local council and your local MP.